The Trouble With The Two State Solution

[Failzero]

Except you have got it backwards. It is Gaza and Palestine which has been calling for "kill them or expel them". As evidenced by October 7.

What is your solution to the conflict?

Let Israel Finish the Job , The world won’t like them any better if they relent and stand down.

 

[Silver Cat]

Which leaves deportation as the only solution, doesn't it?

Sure, not only (for both sides). Technically, there also can be such possible solutions like, say, integration in the equal right society, creation of the legal Arabic Palestinian state (in 1948 borders), Palestinal Federation with Arabic and Jewish regions, international occupation of the whole Palestine (including Jewish part) total genocide of one or both sides and so on...
I believe that we should avoid: a) genocide of both Palestinian and Jewish population, b) open support of violation of human rights and ethnic discrimination, c) sending troops in the region, d) wasting money without any practical result.
All other options are on the table.

 

[Shusha]

... Because they will fight against any occupation regime.

Hmmmm. I wonder if this is true.

What about a UN Mandate for the Self-Determination of the People of Gaza, supervised by, I don't know, Germany, Japan, and Iceland or some such combination? The idea would be to take the volatile relationship with both Israel and Arab countries out of the conflict, and have relatively neutral countries explicitly on the ground and working towards the development of Gaza.

 

[Silver Cat]

Hmmmm. I wonder if this is true.

What about a UN Mandate for the Self-Determination of the People of Gaza, supervised by, I don't know, Germany, Japan, and Iceland or some such combination? The idea would be to take the volatile relationship with both Israel and Arab countries out of the conflict, and have relatively neutral countries explicitly on the ground and working towards the development of Gaza.

There was a UN mandate for the creation of Arabic Palestinian State back in 1948.
Another problem is that Arabs won't tolerate pro-Jewish peacekeepers, the Jews won't tolerate anti-Jewish peacekeepers and the USA won't tolerate Russian or Chinese peacekeepers.

 

[Shusha]

Sure, not only (for both sides). Technically, there also can be such possible solutions like, say, integration in the equal right society, creation of the legal Arabic Palestinian state (in 1948 borders), Palestinal Federation with Arabic and Jewish regions, international occupation of the whole Palestine (including Jewish part) total genocide of one or both sides and so on...
I believe that we should avoid: a) genocide of both Palestinian and Jewish population, b) open support of violation of human rights and ethnic discrimination, c) sending troops in the region, d) wasting money without any practical result.
All other options are on the table.

I think we can both agree that genocide is not a solution.

An international occupation is both unworkable, and fundamentally in opposition to the general principle of self-determination. I can't see anyone agreeing to that, and why should they? Sounds like a headache for everyone.

Creation of a State of Palestine is the two-state solution. It is the solution that has worked through the past century and continues, for the most part, to be the generally internationally agreed upon solution: self-determination and national sovereignty for each of the parties. This is how the empires of the past were dissolved into today's States. It remains, in my mind, the best solution for everyone. But you can't force it on a party that refuses it, over and over and over again. (Also, there is no such thing as "1948 borders" and peace treaties, including international borders, are negotiated between the parties involved, and not demanded as pre-conditions.)

I've always thought a Federation remains an interesting possibility.

The events of October 7, though, make those last two untenable in the foreseeable future.

 

[Shusha]

b) open support of violation of human rights and ethnic discrimination

Of course. We agree. Though I suspect we do not agree about what this means. One of the on-going issues, in my decades-long conversations about this conflict, is how to understand and frame concrete legal concepts and how they should be applied in ambiguous situations.

As example, with respect to "discrimination", the people of Gaza are not Israeli nationals. They should not expect to be treated as though they are Israeli nationals. The people of Gaza are intending self-determination and sovereignty (though not yet legally achieved). It is fair and reasonable - and legal - to treat them as foreign nationals.

All this before we even get to the current problem which is: the people of Gaza, collectively, are belligerents, currently in an active state of war, due to acts of belligerence committed by them (also war crimes). They should expect to be treated as such. (Be clear I am speaking about the collective of the Gaza government and NOT about individual civilians).

The point being that "discrimination" has a different meaning when used in reference to citizens of a state vs foreign nationals.

These are all accepted legal principles. They are not morally problematic.

 

[AsherN]

I think they need their own countries. They seem to not like each other, and Muslims are forbidden to pay or charge interest on loans, and I know that won't play for the other team at all. Which side do you think the bankers are rooting for?

They don't want their own country. They want Israel. What do you think the slogan ' From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" means?

 

[bendog]

The Palestinians kept their housekeys. They didn't want to assimilate. They wanted to go home. Every Arab country is not like every other.

The Arab States had the time and the petro dollars to build a "paradise." They didn't for the simple reason they wanted to keep the Pales as a tool to destroy Israel.

The poor Pales were kept in camps for the Arab states' political agendas. Now, those Arab states have no use for them (only a Persian one, and Persians will fock arabs anytime anywhere). And yeah, Bibi found Hamas useful too. Obviously, that's not working well.

Patience is one thing, but for Christ's sake (-: if these folks simply learn to lie down in front of Likud's tanks, they'd have their focking homeland. But no. They are locked in a war they lost in 48, 56, 67, and 73, and have since then they've limited themselves to more or less terror attacks. And when the zionists won in 48, it was a war between two religious groups with no natl boundaries. Maybe the Pales should get credit for perseverence, but they should have chosen a civil war against Hamas. But instead, yet once again, they'll start cheering Hamas over their own dead bodies, which wouldn't be dead but for Hamas.

 

[surada]

Except you have got it backwards. It is Gaza and Palestine which has been calling for "kill them or expel them". As evidenced by October 7.

What is your solution to the conflict?

This has been going on for 70 years. Israel destroys homes, villages and olive groves while claiming they are victims.. Now they are blaming Biden or Hamas.

I don't think there's much hope. The Israelis were very damaged by the Holocaust in Europe and now they have damaged the Palestinians.

 

[surada]

The Arab States had the time and the petro dollars to build a "paradise." They didn't for the simple reason they wanted to keep the Pales as a tool to destroy Israel.

The poor Pales were kept in camps for the Arab states' political agendas. Now, those Arab states have no use for them (only a Persian one, and Persians will fock arabs anytime anywhere). And yeah, Bibi found Hamas useful too. Obviously, that's not working well.

Patience is one thing, but for Christ's sake (-: if these folks simply learn to lie down in front of Likud's tanks, they'd have their focking homeland. But no. They are locked in a war they lost in 48, 56, 67, and 73, and have since then they've limited themselves to more or less terror attacks. And when the zionists won in 48, it was a war between two religious groups with no natl boundaries. Maybe the Pales should get credit for perseverence, but they should have chosen a civil war against Hamas. But instead, yet once again, they'll start cheering Hamas over their own dead bodies, which wouldn't be dead but for Hamas.

That's another of Israel's ugly lies.
Bibi supported Hamas with money through Qatar. They are Muslim Brotherhood which is completely rejected by Egypt and the Gulf States.

The Israelis have become Nazis.

 

[surada]

The trouble with the two state solution is that it leaves another enemy state on Israel's border, a state which refuses to admit that Israel has a right to exist. A state which will have an army and arm itself for future attacks on Israel. What country on the planet would agree to have a state formed right on their border which would be hell bent on wanting to eliminate you from existence?

Lol the West Bank has 3 million Muslims. The Israelis are fools. They have turned into Nazis and expect that to work out. 70 years of abuse is enough.

 

[Failzero]

That's another of Israel's ugly lies.
Bibi supported Hamas with money through Qatar. They are Muslim Brotherhood which is completely rejected by Egypt and the Gulf States.

The Israelis have become Nazis.

Says the Arab Street

 

[bendog]

That's another of Israel's ugly lies.
Bibi supported Hamas with money through Qatar. They are Muslim Brotherhood which is completely rejected by Egypt and the Gulf States.

The Israelis have become Nazis.

I absolutely agree Israel and Iraq both, separately, funded Hamas. But if the Palestinians truly wanted a separate state (with NO right of return) they'd have had it 30 years or more ago simply through civil disobedience, and had fewer casualties. So, imo, blaming Likud is just a refusal to actually address facts

From the river to the sea, they will know thee. And, I've never met a zionist I'd turn my back on, either.

 

[bendog]

Says the Arab Street

"some" Israelis are no better than nazis, imo. But "remember Charlottesville." And Trump.

 

[Failzero]

I absolutely agree Israel and Iraq both, separately, funded Hamas. But if the Palestinians truly wanted a separate state (with NO right of return) they'd have had it 30 years or more ago simply through civil disobedience, and had fewer casualties. So, imo, blaming Likud is just a refusal to actually address facts

From the river to the sea, they will know thee. And, I've never met a zionist I'd turn my back on, either.

The Arab Street is here in America now

 

[surada]

Says the Arab Street

Nope. Not the Arab street. The world is watching.

Israeli forces cut off north Gaza to isolate Hamas as an advance on the urban center looms

Israeli forces severed northern Gaza from the rest of the besieged territory and pounded it with intense airstrikes overnight into Monday.

apnews.com

 

[surada]

I absolutely agree Israel and Iraq both, separately, funded Hamas. But if the Palestinians truly wanted a separate state (with NO right of return) they'd have had it 30 years or more ago simply through civil disobedience, and had fewer casualties. So, imo, blaming Likud is just a refusal to actually address facts

From the river to the sea, they will know thee. And, I've never met a zionist I'd turn my back on, either.

The problem with a single state is that the Muslims and Christians would out vote them. So now what? I'd say the Israelis are not too smart.

 

[surada]

There needs to be peace and a solution. Two states with an agreement that they not be allowed to have a military and in which Israel can decide who can or cannot enter. Or, at some point the world convinces other Arab nations to offer them all access and refuge in their countries. If America can allow 7 million illegal inside the U.S over three years or so, why can't all the Arab nations offer the Palestiians free passage into their countries?

There no reason for the Arabs to clean up Israel's mess. The Zionists have become the Nazis they hated.

 

[Failzero]

There no reason for the Arabs to clean up Israel's mess. The Zionists have become the Nazis they hated.

The Pro Arab Far left Krystalnacht is here today

 

[Calypso Jones]

well somebody had an epiphany.