These are the continuing moral dilemmas...

TemplarKormac

Political Atheist
Mar 30, 2013
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The Land of Sanctuary
Templar's Log, Stardate 94122.9

I am still wrestling with the moral conundrums I face regarding my views on homosexuality and gay rights. Then I remembered a while back having posted this thread.

A Political and Moral dilemma solved: Homosexuality

I thought I had freed myself from my biases and prejudices regarding the issue of homosexuality. But yet here I am, all this time later, still wrestling with them. The battle is never truly over. That could not be more exemplified by the decision of the writers of Star Trek: Beyond deciding to make the character Sulu gay. I struggled with that mightily. The irony is that in the original timeline, Sulu was straight, the actor playing him was gay. Now, in the "Kelvin timeline" as they call it, a straight man (as far as I know) is playing a gay character.

What surprised me even more is the fact that George Takei, the man who played the straight Sulu, a staunch gay rights activist and gay man himself, spoke out against the change, saying it was against George Roddenberry's vision. I agree, and I respect Takei for breaking from the plantation on this singular subject. The premise of that entire show is still based on Gene Roddenberry's vision. The writers and actor Zachary Quinto (who plays Spock, and is gay himself) disagreed. Oh well. I thought about boycotting the JJ Abrams version of the Star Trek franchise because of that, but I won't.

I remember as a kid in the 2nd Grade getting hooked midway through the second season of Star Trek: Voyager. Since then, I have watched and rewatched every iteration of the television series, I own all seven seasons of Voyager and own all ten of the movies. I'll never forget how much that show actually inspired me. My interests in sciences, the military....Shakespearean literature. I think it unfair to abandon something I grew up with solely because one of the characters in the new movies are gay. It takes all the joy out of life having to measure everything you enjoy against your morality. Basically it keeps your ship moored in spacedock. That's not to say there's anything wrong with morality. That's a reliable course for your helmsman to follow. Though it doesn't hurt to make some course corrections along the way.

While I still disagree with and ultimately think of homosexuality as a sin, I feel like I should not only extend my tolerance...no...acceptance of gay people to not only those I encounter in real life, but in the world of fiction. It is tiring, having to balance my morals with standards of acceptance. It is hard, however I recognize that being open minded and objective is a constant struggle. But tonight, as I finished watching Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, I was reminded that exercising tolerance for gay people is my undiscovered country, with each step gaining more tolerance from those different than I. I am a Christian, and tolerating and accepting gay people does not make me cease to be one, it makes me a better one.

I still believe gay people have the same rights as I do, and that they STILL should be treated equally under the law. It's admirable to stay true to conscience, but it was out of conscience out Constitution was crafted. And it is through my conscience that I chart this new course. The Bible, the Constitution, and my conscience are my Prime Directive, my General Order #1. I have made it to the final frontier. I am boldly going where few people have gone before.

In the last scene of Star Trek VI, Nyota Uhura relays an order from Starfleet for the Enterprise and her crew to put back to spacedock, to be decommissioned. Spock (in one of his best lines I think) replied, "If I were human I believe my response would be "go to hell," which draws a surprised look from Kirk, Spock continues, "if I were human." When Chekov asks Kirk for the course heading, he quotes Peter Pan saying "Second star to the right, and straight on till morning."

I believe I'll follow them.

End Log.

Live long and prosper, USMB!
 
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“I am a Christian, and tolerating and accepting gay people does not make me cease to be one, it makes me a better one.”

What’s troubling, however, is that although there are Christians who might come to the realization that accepting gay Americans for who they are in no way conflicts with Christian doctrine and dogma, they nonetheless seek to disadvantage gay Americans through force of law, they vote for politicians who would deny gay Americans their rights, and seek through the judicial process to take from gay Americans the means by which to defend their rights and protected liberties from those who wish to harm gay and transgender Americans through force of law.

This is clearly not consistent with “tolerating and accepting gay people.”

If a Christian is going to consistently, comprehensively, and in good faith tolerate and accept gay people, he must likewise oppose politicians and jurists hostile to the rights and protected liberties of gay Americans.

Indeed, a good Christian would not only refrain himself from seeking to disadvantage gay Americans, but as a good Christian he would work to defend gay Americans from un-Constitutional attacks, and actively oppose politicians and jurists hostile to the rights and protected liberties of gay Americans, refusing to vote for a given politician who would affect the judiciary in such a manner as to jeopardize the rights of those gay and transgender.
 
I think your problem lies in holding the antique written tenets of your religion as an - or the - establishing authority of morality. Morality is a human construct. It's purpose is to allow society to exist. Homosexuality is a permanent feature of the human species (all species, actually). It does not threaten society. There is no rationale for a "moral" objection to its presence in others. As well stated a few posts above, there is a "moral" objection to those who would deny civil rights to homosexuals based on their sexual preferences. That DOES threaten society.
 
“I am a Christian, and tolerating and accepting gay people does not make me cease to be one, it makes me a better one.”

What’s troubling, however, is that although there are Christians who might come to the realization that accepting gay Americans for who they are in no way conflicts with Christian doctrine and dogma, they nonetheless seek to disadvantage gay Americans through force of law, they vote for politicians who would deny gay Americans their rights, and seek through the judicial process to take from gay Americans the means by which to defend their rights and protected liberties from those who wish to harm gay and transgender Americans through force of law.

This is clearly not consistent with “tolerating and accepting gay people.”

If a Christian is going to consistently, comprehensively, and in good faith tolerate and accept gay people, he must likewise oppose politicians and jurists hostile to the rights and protected liberties of gay Americans.

Indeed, a good Christian would not only refrain himself from seeking to disadvantage gay Americans, but as a good Christian he would work to defend gay Americans from un-Constitutional attacks, and actively oppose politicians and jurists hostile to the rights and protected liberties of gay Americans, refusing to vote for a given politician who would affect the judiciary in such a manner as to jeopardize the rights of those gay and transgender.

Then there is that entire abomination thing throughout the Bible thing, Mr "Christian"
 
“I am a Christian, and tolerating and accepting gay people does not make me cease to be one, it makes me a better one.”

What’s troubling, however, is that although there are Christians who might come to the realization that accepting gay Americans for who they are in no way conflicts with Christian doctrine and dogma, they nonetheless seek to disadvantage gay Americans through force of law, they vote for politicians who would deny gay Americans their rights, and seek through the judicial process to take from gay Americans the means by which to defend their rights and protected liberties from those who wish to harm gay and transgender Americans through force of law.

This is clearly not consistent with “tolerating and accepting gay people.”

If a Christian is going to consistently, comprehensively, and in good faith tolerate and accept gay people, he must likewise oppose politicians and jurists hostile to the rights and protected liberties of gay Americans.

Indeed, a good Christian would not only refrain himself from seeking to disadvantage gay Americans, but as a good Christian he would work to defend gay Americans from un-Constitutional attacks, and actively oppose politicians and jurists hostile to the rights and protected liberties of gay Americans, refusing to vote for a given politician who would affect the judiciary in such a manner as to jeopardize the rights of those gay and transgender.

Then there is that entire abomination thing throughout the Bible thing, Mr "Christian"
And another foreign word, love..
 
Templar's Log, Stardate 94122.9

I am still wrestling with the moral conundrums I face regarding my views on homosexuality and gay rights. Then I remembered a while back having posted this thread.

A Political and Moral dilemma solved: Homosexuality

I thought I had freed myself from my biases and prejudices regarding the issue of homosexuality. But yet here I am, all this time later, still wrestling with them. The battle is never truly over. That could not be more exemplified by the decision of the writers of Star Trek: Beyond deciding to make the character Sulu gay. I struggled with that mightily. The irony is that in the original timeline, Sulu was straight, the actor playing him was gay. Now, in the "Kelvin timeline" as they call it, a straight man (as far as I know) is playing a gay character.

What surprised me even more is the fact that George Takei, the man who played the straight Sulu, a staunch gay rights activist and gay man himself, spoke out against the change, saying it was against George Roddenberry's vision. I agree, and I respect Takei for breaking from the plantation on this singular subject. The premise of that entire show is still based on Gene Roddenberry's vision. The writers and actor Zachary Quinto (who plays Spock, and is gay himself) disagreed. Oh well. I thought about boycotting the JJ Abrams version of the Star Trek franchise because of that, but I won't.

I remember as a kid in the 2nd Grade getting hooked midway through the second season of Star Trek: Voyager. Since then, I have watched and rewatched every iteration of the television series, I own all seven seasons of Voyager and own all ten of the movies. I'll never forget how much that show actually inspired me. My interests in sciences, the military....Shakespearean literature. I think it unfair to abandon something I grew up with solely because one of the characters in the new movies are gay. It takes all the joy out of life having to measure everything you enjoy against your morality. Basically it keeps your ship moored in spacedock. That's not to say there's anything wrong with morality. That's a reliable course for your helmsman to follow. Though it doesn't hurt to make some course corrections along the way.

While I still disagree with and ultimately think of homosexuality as a sin, I feel like I should not only extend my tolerance...no...acceptance of gay people to not only those I encounter in real life, but in the world of fiction. It is tiring, having to balance my morals with standards of acceptance. It is hard, however I recognize that being open minded and objective is a constant struggle. But tonight, as I finished watching Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, I was reminded that exercising tolerance for gay people is my undiscovered country, with each step gaining more tolerance from those different than I. I am a Christian, and tolerating and accepting gay people does not make me cease to be one, it makes me a better one.

I still believe gay people have the same rights as I do, and that they STILL should be treated equally under the law. It's admirable to stay true to conscience, but it was out of conscience out Constitution was crafted. And it is through my conscience that I chart this new course. The Bible, the Constitution, and my conscience are my Prime Directive, my General Order #1. I have made it to the final frontier. I am boldly going where few people have gone before.

In the last scene of Star Trek VI, Nyota Uhura relays an order from Starfleet for the Enterprise and her crew to put back to spacedock, to be decommissioned. Spock (in one of his best lines I think) replied, "If I were human I believe my response would be "go to hell," which draws a surprised look from Kirk, Spock continues, "if I were human." When Chekov asks Kirk for the course heading, he quotes Peter Pan saying "Second star to the right, and straight on till morning."

I believe I'll follow them.

End Log.

Live long and prosper, USMB!
I'm with MrTakei on this one, it's not a gay issue it's a Sulu issue. Gay has never been an issue for me. But Sulu gay is just wrong. One of the best things about the Star Trek franchise was it seemed to build on itself. Introducing new gay characters fine, but don't mess with established characters. I mean it's kinda like watching the last installment of the hobbit and finding out Bilbo was actually trans. Leave the story alone.
 
Abrams raped Star Trek (and Spoke) in his first Star Trek movie. Same time line or different time line, you don't destroy Vulcan.
 

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