Zone1 They Were Eyewitnesses to the Death and Resurrection

[alang1216]

That's why it was such a big deal when he performed ~40 of them. But the universe being created from nothing being hardwired to produce intelligence and life forming from inanimate material should qualify as miracles that you know about.

If he performed them. There are plenty of stories of other demi-gods, Hercules comes to mind, doing miraculous things.

 

[alang1216]

The earliest manuscripts occurred within 25 years of the event and the early Christians - the ones who witnessed Jesus performing miracles - worshiped him as God because of it.

The earliest writing we have are Paul's, who witnessed nothing, and knew little about Jesus.

You have no evidence to reject the miracles. You have no account of anyone saying these miracles did not happen.

Are there any accounts of miracles, not by a Christian author?

You have no explanation for why early Christians worshiped Jesus as God.

People want a God. How many have proclaimed Trump as being somehow uniquely connected to God? What will that look like in a few generations?

 

[ding]

If he performed them. There are plenty of stories of other demi-gods, Hercules comes to mind, doing miraculous things.

Didn't you say that "everyone" agrees that Jesus existed and was crucified? So isn't this a bit of disingenuousness on your part?

But putting that aside, you are actually making my case. They worshipped Zeus because they believe he did miraculous things. But Zeus was not a historical figure. Jesus was. So the first Christians who witnessed these miracles were justified in their beliefs.

 

[ding]

The earliest writing we have are Paul's, who witnessed nothing, and knew little about Jesus.


Are there any accounts of miracles, not by a Christian author?


People want a God. How many have proclaimed Trump as being somehow uniquely connected to God? What will that look like in a few generations?

Which would have been within 25 years of the event, further proving my point that you criticize documents that were well above the standard for events in antiquity. Thus showcasing your bias.

Again... why did the early Christians worship Jesus as God and endure persecution? Where is your evidence of a conspiracy?

 

[alang1216]

Not as much as witnessing the miracles would and don't forget... they were persecuted for their beliefs.

All the miracles took place in Judea but Jews there generally did not become Christian. Most Christians were pagan converts that never saw any miracles.

So is your argument that is was a conspiracy? Where's your evidence for that?

More like a shared mythology. If miracles were needed to fulfill a prophesy, they would not be the first theology story inserted into the NT.

BTW, Happy New Year.

 

[Meriweather]

If he performed them. There are plenty of stories of other demi-gods, Hercules comes to mind, doing miraculous things.

How were these similar to the ones Jesus performed?

 

[alang1216]

Was that the norm for events in antiquity? What part of no other event in antiquity is comparable did you not comprehend?

It seems you are rather selective about standards for documentation for events in antiquity. Again... they worshiped him as God and endured persecution for doing so. That's the relevant evidence from antiquity. The manuscripts just explain why.

I don't doubt that 'they' worshiped him as God and endured persecution for doing so. I just know that 'they' are generally converts, like Paul, who never witnessed any of Jesus' miracles for himself.

You are looking a little desperate here with your critical theory criticism. Where's YOUR evidence for the conspiracy?

Conspiracy is your word, not mine.

 

[alang1216]

How were these similar to the ones Jesus performed?

Raising folk from the dead was a common theme:

Heracles’ final labor was to bring Cerberus back from Hades; of course, he could not kill the three-headed dog in the process. Heracles began this labor by being initiated into the Eleusinian Mysteries. Then Hermes led him down into the Underworld. In Hades, Heracles saw his friends, Theseus and Peirithoüs, stuck to chairs [see Theseus], and they begged Heracles to set them free. Heracles managed to pry Theseus loose and began to move on to Peirithoüs, but the earth began to shake, and Heracles desisted. Heracles and Theseus were allowed to leave, but Hades insisted that Peirithoüs remain. When Heracles came to Hades’ palace, he asked the ruler of the Underworld if he could take Cerberus with him. Hades agreed as long as Heracles did not use weapons to capture him. Heracles grabbed the hell-hound and dragged him all the way to Tiryns. Eurystheus hid as soon as he saw Cerberus, and, from his hiding place, ordered that he be taken back to Hades, and Heracles obliged. With all the labors completed, Heracles was now free to go about his life as he wished. He was also promised that he would become immortal upon his death.​

 

[alang1216]

Actually that's wrong. Occam's razor says you should believe it. The simplest explanation for early Christians worshiping Jesus as God and enduring persecution is that they witnessed the miracles he performed.

Your belief in a long lived conspiracy is way more complex and without one shred of EVIDENCE.

Were NT stories created to support Christian theology, e.g., fulfillment of prophesies, or not?

 

[alang1216]

The evidence is overwhelming. The early Christians worshiped Jesus as God and were persecuted for it. That's not folklore. That's documented history. They were there. They saw.

They didn't see, they heard.

 

[Meriweather]

Heracles’ final labor was to bring Cerberus back from Hades;

Look more deeply. Did Hercules heal the sick, forgive wrongs, give sight to the blind or hearing to the death? Hercules more common miracles had to do with animals. Did Jesus ever work miracles over animals?

 

[alang1216]

Look more deeply. Did Hercules heal the sick, forgive wrongs, give sight to the blind or hearing to the death? Hercules more common miracles had to do with animals. Did Jesus ever work miracles over animals?

Picky picky. How about this guy:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apollonius of Tyana
A wandering philosopher, probably representing Apollonius of Tyana, who lived a part of his life in Crete and died there. Found in Gortyn (late 2nd century AD), now in Heraklion Archaeological Museum, Crete.
Born	c. AD 15 (disputed)[1] Tyana, Cappadocia, Anatolia (Roman Empire) (now Kemerhisar, Niğde, Turkey)
Died	c. AD 100 (aged c. 85)
Occupation(s)	Sage, orator, philosopher
Known for	Divination, miracle-work

Apollonius of Tyana (Ancient Greek: Ἀπολλώνιος; Arabic: بلينس; Sanskrit: अपालुन्यः c. AD 15 – c. 100[2]) was a first-century Greek philosopher and religious leader from the town of Tyana, Cappadocia in Roman Anatolia, who spent his life travelling and teaching in the Middle East, North Africa and India. He is a central figure in Neopythagoreanism and was one of the most famous "miracle workers" of his day.
His exceptional personality and his mystical way of life, which was regarded as exemplary, impressed his contemporaries and had a lasting cultural influence. Numerous legends surrounding him and accounts of his life are contained in the extensive Life of Apollonius, which contains a large part of the legendary material about Apollonius' life and work. Many of the ancient legends of Apollonius consist of numerous reports about miracles that he was said to have performed as a wandering sage with his lifelong companion Damis.
He was tried for allegedly having used magic as a means of conspiring against the emperor; after his conviction and subsequent death-penalty, his followers believed he underwent heavenly ascension.[3] Most modern scholars of antiquity agree that Apollonius existed historically.[4][5]

 

[Meriweather]

Picky picky. How about this guy

Same response. Look more deeply. First, this man was not being described as God, but as a philosopher. Notice you went from trying to compare Jesus to mythological gods to a philosopher. Scholars point out that, unfortunately, we know very little of Apollonius of Tyana. The biography that you point to is thought to have been commissioned by an empress who wished to combat Christianity and replace him with the pagan Apollonius. Sixteen temples were built in his name, yet he did not see himself as God. In fact, he seems to have followed early Greek philosophers in the idea that one did not communicate with God through prayers and sacrifice; that God paid little attention to humans, but humans could come to know God through their intellect.

 

[alang1216]

Same response. Look more deeply. First, this man was not being described as God, but as a philosopher. Notice you went from trying to compare Jesus to mythological gods to a philosopher. Scholars point out that, unfortunately, we know very little of Apollonius of Tyana. The biography that you point to is thought to have been commissioned by an empress who wished to combat Christianity and replace him with the pagan Apollonius. Sixteen temples were built in his name, yet he did not see himself as God. In fact, he seems to have followed early Greek philosophers in the idea that one did not communicate with God through prayers and sacrifice; that God paid little attention to humans, but humans could come to know God through their intellect.

You are thinking as someone from the 21st century. Think about some pagan living in the first century. This pagan grew up hearing stories of gods and demi-gods that performed miracles, raised the dead, etc. Paganism was a very transactional thing, you didn't have to believe in anything, you did things for the gods and they did things for you. You could worship as many gods as you wished, especially the god of your city. You and everyone around you accepted that this was the way the world worked.

A Christian foreigner comes to you and tells you stories about a man who lived in another country, spoke another language, and practiced another religion. A man who was executed as a criminal. Why would you be interested in becoming a Christian if it meant giving up every other god and the things those gods could do for you? It is easy to imagine that Christian missionary relating stories of the power of his God to perform miracles, improve your health, and offer eternal life. I'm doubtful about the miracles and eternal life but the offer of better health was true.

 

[Meriweather]

You are thinking as someone from the 21st century. Think about some pagan living in the first century. This pagan grew up hearing stories of gods and demi-gods that performed miracles, raised the dead, etc. Paganism was a very transactional thing, you didn't have to believe in anything, you did things for the gods and they did things for you. You could worship as many gods as you wished, especially the god of your city. You and everyone around you accepted that this was the way the world worked.

A Christian foreigner comes to you and tells you stories about a man who lived in another country, spoke another language, and practiced another religion. A man who was executed as a criminal. Why would you be interested in becoming a Christian if it meant giving up every other god and the things those gods could do for you? It is easy to imagine that Christian missionary relating stories of the power of his God to perform miracles, improve your health, and offer eternal life. I'm doubtful about the miracles and eternal life but the offer of better health was true.

Let's compare the realities of life that are common and recurring to all generations. My reality is that I couldn't care less about miracles that occurred two thousand years ago to other people. I could not care less about some future afterlife, no matter how beautiful. I needed help NOW, in this life, this reality, where even one miracle wouldn't be of any help today.

Think about it. You see a miracle today that gives you knowledge God is, that no doubt about it God exists. Whee! After that happy burst, then what? How does that change your life? In Revelation John had good news, and...they tasted as sweet as honey. At first. But then...the next steps that had to be taken--that second stage--left him with a sour stomach for that period. Then came the final stage where all is well.

Would you make it through the second, sour stomach, stage? A listened to a recent homily and it began with science: In the brain a chemical reaction takes place when a person says 'yes' or responds positively, and positive things can take place. The homily continued that Mary's example of simply saying 'Yes' changed her life and the result of her saying Yes changed the world.

The reason Christianity worked in the ancient world and is still working today, has nothing to do with miracles or the afterlife. It is about the message. It is about saying Yes to God and Yes to whatever is placed before us in this life. It is saying Yes to the Way Christ taught.

Alang, your response to God, to the Way of Christianity is, "No" or perhaps, "Not yet". To back up your reasoning you point to Greek gods and Greek philosophers. You pursue the 'No'. Even though I just heard the 'Yes' homily recently, the Gospel message, Christ's teachings pointing me to 'Yes'. And it has made sublime difference.

I highly recommend, Pursue the Yes.

 

[hobelim]

And for this they were murdered. But they never stopped proclaiming the resurrection

Every eyewitness account of Jesus appearing to his disciples after his crucifixion and death was an eyewitness account of what was seen and heard in dreams. It was their belief that dreams are the medium through which God communicates with living human beings from his realm. Seeing Jesus after his crucifixion would have convinced them that Jesus survived death and was alive and well and living in the eternal realm of God, the promised reward of the righteous, which gave them the faith to endure to their own end, unafraid, knowing that they too would not remain dead

 

[hobelim]

How were these similar to the ones Jesus performed?

* Mithra was born on December 25th. Called "Birthday of the Unconquered Sun", it was incorporated into the church in the 4th century AD as the birthday of Christ. Although Jesus was born in October, christians today celebrate Mithra' birthday, believing it was Jesus' birthday.

* Mithra' birth was witnessed by shepherds and by Magi (wise men) who brought gifts to his sacred birth-cave of the Rock

* He was considered a great travelling teacher and master.

* He had 12 companions or disciples, which in Mithraism were represented by the 12 astrological signs.

* He performed miracles.

* He was buried in a tomb.

* After three days he rose again, but with no witnesses to the event

* His triumph over death and ascension to heaven were celebrated at the Mithran's most important festival, Easter, held at the spring equinox when the sun rises toward its apogee

* Mithra was called "the Good Shepherd."

* He was considered "the Way, the Truth and the Light, the Redeemer, the Savior, the Messiah."

* In the cult's rituals, Mithra was identified with both the Lion and the Lamb.

* His sacred day was Sunday, and was called "the Lord's Day" hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

* Mithraism had a Eucharist or "Lord's Supper" in which bread was eaten as a symbol of Mithra' body, and wine was drunk as a symbol of the blood shed when Mithra overpowered and killed the bull

* Mithra performed many miracles, including raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see and the lame walk, casting out devils.

* Mithra was said to carry keys to the kingdom of heaven.

* Mithra was called the god of light and truth, the god of mediation between god and man. He was to his worshippers The creator of life; The Mediator between man and the higher gods; The God of light; The All-seeing one; The Guardian of oaths (covenants); The Protector of the righteous in this world and also in the next.

* A trinity godhead comprised of Mithra (divine god of truth), Rashnu (divine god of justice, judgement and righteousness), Vohu Manah (divine spirit of enlightenment). These three persons were separate yet they were one.

Before returning to heaven, Mithra was said to have celebrated a Last Supper with followers, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. In memory of this, his worshippers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with the Mithran cross of light. This was one of the seven Mithraic sacraments, believed to be the models for the Christians' seven sacraments, which follow them identically. It was called mizd, latin missa, in other words, English mass. Mithra' image was buried in a rock tomb, the same sacred cave that represented his mother's womb. He was withdrawn from it and said to live again.

Mithraism was an ascetic, anti-female religion. Its priesthood consisted of celibate men only

 

[ding]

All the miracles took place in Judea but Jews there generally did not become Christian. Most Christians were pagan converts that never saw any miracles.

What evidence do you have that the first Christians never witnessed the miracles recorded in the written manuscript? Or that the first Christians were mostly pagans?

Because the first Christians were Jewish people who knew Jesus and witnessed his resurrection.

 

[ding]

More like a shared mythology. If miracles were needed to fulfill a prophesy, they would not be the first theology story inserted into the NT.

BTW, Happy New Year.

Thanks. Happy New Year to you and yours too.

Any evidence for those beliefs? Because the first Christians were Jewish and witnessed the miracles performed by Christ. Furthermore, there are no accounts of anyone saying, hey, those miracles performed by Christ never happened.

So not only are there accounts of the miracles performed by Christ and accounts of the first Christians worshiping Jesus as God, there are no accounts that challenge either of those pieces of evidence.

 

[ding]

More like a shared mythology.

Can you walk me through what that means in practical terms? How would that have come about? What would that have looked like?