Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, toomuchtime, et al,

You cannot negotiate away the provision for the protection of national security and crime prevention.

(COMMENT)

I have to agree that it would be a very difficult risk assessment for the Israelis to grant citizenship to the Arab Palestinians without a very detailed vetting → for the very reasons I cited in Posting #721 supra.


Most Respectfully,
R

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

Indeed, Israel wants to complete its settler colonial project.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote,

Wanting a given status (citizenship in this case) has behind it → some level of expectation. IF it did not, THEN what motivated the want. And there is the paradox. The greater the multitude of new citizens, the greater the demand for the expectation (wants and needs) → the greater the pull on resources and the thinner the distribution of resources across the population of new citizens. The resources needed are essentially → government expenditures made to the recipients (the new citizens) received in which no new increase in government revenue (income to treasury) being paid for the subsidy the influx of new dependent (unemployed and those underemployed) citizens for what is necessary to provide the same level of services received by any other citizen.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

(COMMENT)

This type of decision is going to require years of planning in advance to accommodate the transition. Just the water/sewer requirements are going to need to be addressed, medical care, new fire protection requirements, and a new law enforcement base to deal with the insurgency that will arise. Just to make Vaccination programs and School Breakfast programs available to the new children is not inexpensive, let along with the wellness programs - and the new requirement to increase ready reserve anti-toxins/antidotes. There are just enormous numbers of little hidden costs that will create a new level of tax burden on the existing Israeli Population. Such a move is going to deplete (almost immediately) and discretionary and contingency funds at the current level.

What am I talking about? Both the current citizenry are going to feel the pinch - and the new citizens are not going to find the milk and honey they expect. Israelis will have a rise in the outbursts and clashes with no insignificant number of former (and some not so former) Hostile Arab Palestinians. How are you going to turn around children like Ahed Tamimi? (Boy, would you like to be the fly on the wall for those anger management classes.)

And I don't think that I'm the only one that when to civil and city planning /human ecology classes.



Most Respectfully,
R

 

[rylah]

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This time it's because of me,
I've somehow deleted a part in the 1st sentence.

The 'state of all its citizens' is a meaningless soundbyte,
used by those who want to cancel the Jewish character of Israel,
that provides the equality and quality of life to all the non Jewish citizens.

I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.

 

[rylah]

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

Indeed, Israel wants to complete its settler colonial project.

Silly soundbytes supposed to convince me
to support the Jihadi colonial project?

 

[rylah]

No, its not "vital" to "basic rights and protections". As I said before, my mother lived in Canada as a permanent resident for 50 years and was just fine, thank you. The idea that it is somehow not fine when its done in Israel is suspicious, frankly.

Frankly, I find the fact that you view those two situations as the same rather suspicious.

I have a friend who is a permanent (green card) resident in the US, has been for years, probably actually 50. She is, however, a citizen of Germany and could back any time. One of the retired faculty members I work with is a British expat (we have lots of them) - he has a permanent residency, but he also maintains his citizenship with the UK. In none of those cases are they from a population unwillingly annexed by another nation who do not have a place to go back to in that same sense - "going back" would be leaving their place of origin and going to another land.

Seems to me people should be given a choice of citizenship - Israeli, or, maintaining Palestinian citizenship with permanent residency. But they ought to have that choice because even Palestinian citizenship is limited (there is no nation) and permanent residency can be revoked at any time, or as I pointed out - if they go abroad to study for any length of time, they can lose it. Unlike your mother or my friends - these people are NOT immigrants. They are not immigrating to a new country. They preceded the arrival of the Jewish settlers yet they should have less choice and rights? No matter how you cut and dice it - permanent residency is NOT the same as citizenship. Unlike citizenship - it can be revoked for any reason at any time. It can cause problems with traveling (example - in the US, under this administrations' various travel bans)

The idea that is is ONLY not fine when it's done in Israel is dishonest frankly and ignores the underlying issues.

But if you want to discuss WHY these people are being rejected for citizenship, you would have to stop blaming Israel and start putting the responsibility on Arabs. Are you willing to do that?

I kind of did approach that and pointed out it needs to be an open and transparent process - one that takes into account the inequalities of the justice system that encourages many to plea bargain rather than be exonerated through the courts. Are they rejected for minor offenses or major ones? What do we know?

I'm not sure you understand what I am arguing for and how it differs from what you are arguing for.

I'm suggesting that the Arab Palestinians who reside in areas annexed by Israel (which are likely to be small numbers) be granted permanent residency status and invited to apply for Israeli citizenship. Those who choose not to apply will retain their Palestinian citizenship and be permanent residents of Israel. Those who choose to apply and meet the criteria will be granted full Israeli citizenship.

Every bit of this revolves around CHOICE made by the people who are affected by the annexation. How is this in any way a bad thing? They get to choose.

The only ones who don't get to choose in this scenario are those who apply, but can't obtain citizenship due to involvement with terrorist groups or other activities harmful to Israel. And I think we would both agree that Israel should not be forced to take these people as citizens, yes?

I guess I did misunderstand, looking more at words than ideas. Yes, I agree with what you are saying here - choice is vital, and the fact that Israel is attempting (in Jerusalem at least) to speed up the process is very positive.

Maybe Hamas supporters gave up applying for Israeli citizenship.

They would not, in the first place, would they?

Majority of terrorists in the 2015 wave of stabbing attacks,
had either Israeli citizenship or residency status,
and lived in towns ruled by PA.

 

[Coyote]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote,

Wanting a given status (citizenship in this case) has behind it → some level of expectation. IF it did not, THEN what motivated the want. And there is the paradox. The greater the multitude of new citizens, the greater the demand for the expectation (wants and needs) → the greater the pull on resources and the thinner the distribution of resources across the population of new citizens. The resources needed are essentially → government expenditures made to the recipients (the new citizens) received in which no new increase in government revenue (income to treasury) being paid for the subsidy the influx of new dependent (unemployed and those underemployed) citizens for what is necessary to provide the same level of services received by any other citizen.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

(COMMENT)

This type of decision is going to require years of planning in advance to accommodate the transition. Just the water/sewer requirements are going to need to be addressed, medical care, new fire protection requirements, and a new law enforcement base to deal with the insurgency that will arise. Just to make Vaccination programs and School Breakfast programs available to the new children is not inexpensive, let along with the wellness programs - and the new requirement to increase ready reserve anti-toxins/antidotes. There are just enormous numbers of little hidden costs that will create a new level of tax burden on the existing Israeli Population. Such a move is going to deplete (almost immediately) and discretionary and contingency funds at the current level.

What am I talking about? Both the current citizenry are going to feel the pinch - and the new citizens are not going to find the milk and honey they expect. Israelis will have a rise in the outbursts and clashes with no insignificant number of former (and some not so former) Hostile Arab Palestinians. How are you going to turn around children like Ahed Tamimi? (Boy, would you like to be the fly on the wall for those anger management classes.)

And I don't think that I'm the only one that when to civil and city planning /human ecology classes.



Most Respectfully,
R

Ok...but the alternative is WHAT if Israel annexes, which it is seemingly going to do now that it has a green light.

Would the alternative be to keep them as non-citizens, WITHOUT the investment that citizens receive for their communities? That would seem to perpetrate resentment and anger.

You can't turn around everyone. For example, Miss Tamimi (don't see an answer for that one!) - but you also have Jewish extremists, like the Kahanists, who aren't going to support the idea that the annexed Palestinians would have national citizenry rights.

 

[Coyote]

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This time it's because of me,
I've somehow deleted a part in the 1st sentence.

The 'state of all its citizens' is a meaningless soundbyte,
used by those who want to cancel the Jewish character of Israel,
that provides the equality and quality of life to all the non Jewish citizens.

I guess I don't see how that would cancel the Jewish character of Israel. Israel has been established as a Jewish state, culturally, for a long time. Likewise, as a state that is the homeland of the Jewish people, who retain a special right of "return". Those have been enshrined for a long time without needing to be specified. That isn't going to change by recognizing that Israel is also nation of multiple peoples - not of immigrants per se, but multiple people's who were there from it's inception and who chose to accept citizenship.

I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.

Not sure....

 

[rylah]

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This time it's because of me,
I've somehow deleted a part in the 1st sentence.

The 'state of all its citizens' is a meaningless soundbyte,
used by those who want to cancel the Jewish character of Israel,
that provides the equality and quality of life to all the non Jewish citizens.

I guess I don't see how that would cancel the Jewish character of Israel. Israel has been established as a Jewish state, culturally, for a long time. Likewise, as a state that is the homeland of the Jewish people, who retain a special right of "return". Those have been enshrined for a long time without needing to be specified. That isn't going to change by recognizing that Israel is also nation of multiple peoples - not of immigrants per se, but multiple people's who were there from it's inception and who chose to accept citizenship.

I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.

Not sure....

What do you mean by "doesn't need to be specified",
I though we were discussing exactly the specific details of a process to acquire citizenship.

Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else.

Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Trump Deal - details, reactions and development on the ground
⁜→ Coyote, rylah, et al

BLUF: While eventually, no one brings the major question to the forefront • lurking in the background is the issue of "self-determination." But → here again, this is going to be a domestic Israeli debate and not one for the US to become involved in.

You can't turn around everyone. For example, Miss Tamimi (don't see an answer for that one!) - but you also have Jewish extremists, like the Kahanists, who aren't going to support the idea that the annexed Palestinians would have national citizenry rights.

Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east, in spite of having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.

(COMMENT)

The concept of "self-determination" never really goes away. While the population of the West Bank (2.7 Million people) is not going to change the influence of the Jewish people (overall), it is enough to throw the government into chaos (coalition government change). But it would also have an impact on the magnitude of the exploitation of Arab Palestinians from the annexed territories. No one knows just how that will alter the balance of influence, power and impact employment exploitation.

I don't think that all 2.7M West Bankers will get citizenship immediately As we look at Jerusalem as an example, we see that a significant number of Arab residents of East Jerusalem rejected offers of Israeli citizenship and boycott municipal elections or any other Israeli election process.

So, I will be surprised if the Arab Palestinians that qualify to vote, opt to vote and instead choose to remain outside the Israeli democratic process. I simply don't know how all this interacts without some measure of chaos emerging.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[toastman]

Then they should not annex.

lol Israel should not annex because the Arabs cannot give up their dreams of killing Jews?

Israel is annexing an area that contained a pre-existing population. It then moved it’s own people into the region and seems shocked at the hostility.

Personally, I think it is time for hostilities to cease, mutual recognition to commence, and both sides to move towards some sort of political solution. I actually think annexing could be a good idea if done right, and done right would include:

Citizenship offered to those who want it and haven’t committed heinous crimes of terrorism (and there needs to be an open and transparent process). The reason I say this, is many Palestinians, specially children, are coerced into plea deals where they plead guilty in order to get home sooner. Perhaps there needs to be some sort of reconciliation program.

Investment in the Palestinian areas annexed (infrastructure etc.) to bring them in line with their a Jewish counterparts.

Without the first, you are unlikely to have the second...states don’t invest in non-citizens.

Permanent residency does not confer a complete set of rights, for example representation, the ability to travel freely for any length of time etc etc. For those who prefer that, fine. But for those that don’t, 50/50 chance at citizenship is not acceptable imo.

The other thing to consider is that citizenship makes that person invested in the state itself. They have skin in the game and belonging because they CHOSE it. That strengthens a state more than having a big population of “renters”.

Among the things I actually agree with in the plan are investment and some annexation. The status quo, where a portion of the population is held under the military justice system while the rest enjoy the full set of rights and protections (especially for minors) under civil law, is unsustainable and this plan does provide some good ideas.

Note: I am predicting your response will include some form of antisemites and Israel-hating combination of verbiage, so please try to put that in the first line so we move past it quickly.

Even the UN has recognized how ridiculous you plan to confer citizenship on any Palestinian who wants it is. In UNGA resolution 194, which anti semites like you often falsely claim established an absolute right of return for the refugees, specified that only those who were willing to live in peace with Jews had that right. Israel will apply that same principle in determining which of the Palestinians who might live on the land to be annexed will be granted citizenship: hence the requirement to apply for citizenship. Those Palestinians who want to become Israeli citizens and who can show they are willing to live in peace with Jews and who will pledge allegiance to Israel will become citizens.

Contrary to you bigoted lies about residency, while residents can't vote in national election, they can vote in local elections if they are living within the boundaries of an Israeli municipality. They have immediate access to all of Israel's very considerable social welfare services, including Israel's national health service which is far superior to what they currently have. They have the protection of Israel's labor laws which means Employers in Israel, including the newly annexed lands must pay them and provide the same benefits that Israeli citizens enjoy. This means they can seek employment anywhere in Israel without special permission.

While technically a resident can have his or her residency canceled, after annexation, the IDF will no longer have the authority to govern their lives and only the civilian government would be able to do it and the resident would have access to the whole Israeli court system to fight such a move, so it is highly unlikely to happen.

While to your hate warped mind, not conferring citizenship on the Palestinians in the annexed lands calls into question the legitimacy of Israel, the Arab residents in Jerusalem seem to be largely indifferent to citizenship or voting. Very few apply for citizenship, probably because their friends and families would see it as treasonous, and very few bother to vote in municipal elections despite the fact that their numbers are sufficient to determine the outcome.

Allegiance - is exactly what many are missing in these discussions.

Israel is demanded to grant citizenship,
and we see little mention of any obligations.

Pledge of allegiance, and criminal record are two components,
I would add Civil service :

• Ambulance, or various social work, this is very important both personal and national experience. If I'm not wrong basic requirement is 2.5 years.
• IDF / Border Police service - optional, a choice on both ends. This requires further profiling, while basic requirement is whole 3 years (or more if both parties choose so). I'm sure hundreds, if not thousands, are already involved and will be conscripted by default.

Residency should be the starting point, 4-5 years framework on a road to citizenship.
With voting in the regional committee, and social services of the state.

Pretty much the Zehut platform, watch from minute 2:00...

Indeed, Israel wants to complete its settler colonial project.

That’s exactly what the Arab Muslims want to do , but it will never happen because Israel is in their way . Deal with it

 

[Coyote]

I listened to the entire thing .... and am finding it intriguing but also, disturbing.

The first part...the "Israelization" of the state vs the "Judiazation"....either a state for all it's citizens vs. a state for Jewish people. Shouldn't any state - especially one which began with a diverse population - be a state for "all it's citizens"? Surely it can do so but still maintain an intrinsic Jewish identity?

It would seem that the main goal is to encourage immigration out first, permanent residency second, and a path to citizenship last and most difficult through a lengthy process. I don't agree with that. At the least it should mirror that of Jews in time span.

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This time it's because of me,
I've somehow deleted a part in the 1st sentence.

The 'state of all its citizens' is a meaningless soundbyte,
used by those who want to cancel the Jewish character of Israel,
that provides the equality and quality of life to all the non Jewish citizens.

I guess I don't see how that would cancel the Jewish character of Israel. Israel has been established as a Jewish state, culturally, for a long time. Likewise, as a state that is the homeland of the Jewish people, who retain a special right of "return". Those have been enshrined for a long time without needing to be specified. That isn't going to change by recognizing that Israel is also nation of multiple peoples - not of immigrants per se, but multiple people's who were there from it's inception and who chose to accept citizenship.

I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.

Not sure....

What do you mean by "doesn't need to be specified",
I though we were discussing exactly the specific details of a process to acquire citizenship.

I was jumping tracks a bit. I meant Israel's Jewish character and status as the homeland for the Jewish people.

Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else.

They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.

Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.

And was or is that a good thing?

 

[toomuchtime_]

From the person whining about being "misquoted"? Grow up. You addressed nothing I posted, above.

For example:

Unlike citizens, their status can be revoked at any time for any reason. Since 1967, Israel has revoked the permits of over 14,000 Palestinians, often with little warning. While ties to terror groups is one reason, many were done because they either moved for a time to the West Bank (for example, to be with family, or because the married a WB resident, and were denied or the process was overly long, the ability to bring the person back) or because they went abroad to study. All things a citizen doesn’t worry about.

Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?[/QUOTE]
If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed. There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

 

[Shusha]

Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else.

They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.

Working from a practical perspective, ultimately, individuals who end up on the "wrong" side of a border are going to have to choose between staying where they are and living in a nation built for the needs of a different culture or moving and living in a nation built around their own culture.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable for individuals to make this choice.

 

[Coyote]

Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else.

They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.

Working from a practical perspective, ultimately, individuals who end up on the "wrong" side of a border are going to have to choose between staying where they are and living in a nation built for the needs of a different culture or moving and living in a nation built around their own culture.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable for individuals to make this choice.

Kind of depends what that nation, who is annexing their homes, decides. They have no say in the matter.

 

[Coyote]

Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

 

[flacaltenn]

Every country has rules for green card holders and if they are violated, the person breaks those rules, they are in danger of losing their status, and Israel is no different from other countries in that respect. What is different about Israel is, as you have noted, that it lives amidst a hostile population, so it must be vigilant about behaviors that might present security risks. The decision to revoke residency is not arbitrary, there are strict ruIes of procedure and the opportunity to appeal the decision if it was an error. It is ridiculous to suggest Israel should be less vigilant about its security because it is inconvenient for some Palestinian residents. Those who are willing to live in peace with the Jews can become citizens, and those who are not willing to live in peace with Jews do not even deserve residency.

From the same Haaretz article you quoted,

"Obtaining citizenship demands various procedures like swearing allegiance to the Jewish state and showing some knowledge of Hebrew, but rights groups say the main problem is the social taboo surrounding such a move: Palestinians feel that the process implies recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over East Jerusalem, which they claim as capital of their future state.

That is why most East Jerusalemites continue to live in the city as permanent residents, the same status afforded to non-Jewish foreigners who move to Israel (Jewish immigrants can easily obtain citizenship thanks to the Law of Return)."

Who are East Jerusalem’s ‘permanent residents’?

Since the Palestinian residents of Israel do not show the same interest in Israeli citizenship as you do, you obviously are not speaking for them but only for anti Israelis who pose as pro Palestinian in order to attack Israel.

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

That's great input.. Wasn't aware of the increased "assimilation" desires of the Palis, but there's a small fraction will to go those lengths to KEEP the relatively high level of prosperity that they currently have..

There's an increasing "odor" that all the parties have given up.. And my take is that the Palestinians are NOT thrilled by all the "nation state actors" SUGGESTING what they need to do.. ALL of these failed plans EXPECT at the get-go that the Palis will adopt some form of "nation state" govt and look and ACT like all the other "nation states" on the planet.. THIS is untenable to the majority of them who have REJECTED both the "Arafat model" and the "PA model"...

They DO NOT want to be FORCED to form coalitions between Fatah and Hamas and pretend it's any kind of "unity government".. The boundaries of their tribal, familiar, and locality allegiances just get too strained.. They see only GRAFT AND CORRUPTION resulting from a such a construct..

What I THINK they want is to live their lives with the freedom to TRAVEL and TRADE and have enough leadership at the local levels to provide that security and infrastructure.. Doubt they are even INSISTENT on "right of return" if it applies GENERALLY to ANYONE that claims "Palestinian citzenship" not CURRENTLY in Palestine.

If the annexation is a MUTUAL effort to establish LIVABLE and relatively free lives and PROVIDES that freedom to trade and travel and relative AUTONOMY on the local scale --- I think that's where this HAS to head towards...

 

[toomuchtime_]

And how do you know this?

Their permanent citizenship status can be revoked if they leave the country for more than 7 years. One major difference from being a citizen. They can't leave, be an expat, and come back.

Also - you ignored the that in the article I linked to (dated within the past year) - many more Palestinians ARE seeking citizenship and Israel is making a concerted effort to shorten the process. That says to me there is a demand, at least in Jerusalem, and Israel is attempting to make it quicker. How do you know that the Palestinians in the annexed area do not want the same thing? And since we have no idea what Netanyahu plans on annexing, and you've presented nothing to indicate what it is yet - I think it's fair to assume he is standing by his September promise.

First, we know exactly what areas Israel plans on annexing because they are exactly the areas specified in President Trump's plan. US officials are in Israel now working out exactly how the process will go forward. Israel is eager for US recognition of sovereignty over the new lands, so it will not diverge from what the US has approved at this time.

The "surge" in applications the article reports is still just a few thousand out of 350,000, less than 1%, so interest in Israeli citizenship continues to be very low among Arab residents. This uptick in applications is a good thing. It shows that Arab residents in Jerusalem finally are beginning to understand that the status of the city is not going to change. And Israel is working to expedite these applications, another good sign. Since turnout of Arab residents of Jerusalem is very low in municipal elections, they obviously do not care much about voting in national elections, and since the "surge" in applications remains so low, they obviously are not troubled by the fact that if they leave Israel for too long, they could lose their residency permit. While you are clearly passionate about citizenship, the Arab residents in Jerusalem are clearly not, so if you are not speaking out for them, why are you speaking out about this?

I'm going to ask again - how do you know this? Israel hasn't exactly accepted the plan either. From my point of view - they are using it as a means of validating annexation. Beyond that - what are they doing?

So how do you know they are only annexing according to what is laid out in that plan? All I've seen so far is what Netanyahu stated in the fall. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

On the applications - I agree with your assessment (per the bolded).

I don't think you can claim that they don't care about the ability to be able to leave and lose their residency permits because they simply don't leave. There have been numerous court cases over this and how it has caused problems, particularly if they have family also in the West Bank.

I also am not sure that you are correct on those that want to request citizenship being so low (just a few thousand).

This is from 2017: East Jerusalem: Palestinians still want to become Israeli citizens

Since Trump’s declaration on Dec. 7, a long line of Palestinians seeking citizenship curls out daily from the Israeli Interior Ministry’s office in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and claimed by Palestinian leaders as the future capital of their own independent state.

The line stems from a social media news prank that claimed Israel was “imposing” citizenship on all of the city's Arab residents, who make up about 37% of Jerusalem's population.

The prank exploited real-life aspirations of Palestinians, most of whom still have not been granted citizenship and yearn for a better life here.

Ten years ago, it was taboo for Palestinians in Jerusalem to request Israeli citizenship, but now it is the norm, with thousands of new requests each year, accordiing to Israeli Interior Ministry figures. The wait time is about three years.

Increasing numbers of East Jerusalem Palestinians are choosing to live in Jewish neighborhoods. Separately, greater numbers of local Palestinians are choosing to send their children to Arabic-language schools using Israeli curricula.

Between the 2016 and the 2017 school years, there was a 14% increase in Arab students studying for Israeli high school enrollment exams, according to municipal statistics. Parents want their children to be able to access Israeli universities.​

Actually reading this makes me rethink some things in regards to what I said about Israel not want to grant citizenship or being arbitrary. Perhaps this is changing as Palestinians, living within Israel, are changing.

RoccoR I would be curious on your thoughts here, because I got the impression that you did not think citizenship would make a difference in how invested one was in a state (civil society) - if so many are wanting it - doesn't that imply a desire to do so?

If this is in response to the de-facto determination that Jerusalem is no longer on the table, then I think annexation might have the same affect in the WB. yes? no?

If you have been following Israeli news, then you know that Netanyahu is planning on annexing only the lands specified in Trump's plan. He has fully embraced it, he has praised it and the annexation is now being planned with Trump's representatives. Since the plan reserves the rest of Judea and Samaria for a Palestinian state if the Palestinians meet the conditions laid out in the plan to annex more than the plan specifies, would amount to rejecting the plan and that would mean the US would not recognize Israeli sovereignty over the land annexed.

I have not seen in the general news - do you have a link?

There simply is no rational basis for suspecting Netanyahu will annex more land than the plan specifies at this time. Nothing Netanyahu may have said before the plan was revealed is relevant.

The TOI link you provided contained a link to another article that defined the surge. It went from a few hundred applying for citizenship to a little less than two thousand. A surge compared to the number that were applying before but not compared to the population of Palestinians in Jerusalem. You mentioned a friend who is a British citizen but has been living in the US for many years with a green card. She cannot vote in elections in the US and if she were to leave for an extended period of time, she would lose her green card, yet these inconveniences don't seem to bother her. I suspect you see this issue as a backdoor to a one state agreement but all the polls of Palestinians show the overwhelming majority of them don't want one state so it shouldn't be a surprise to you that they have so little interest in Israeli citizenship.

There is a difference that I don't think you understand. The people I mentioned who have green cards - moved to the US and chose retain their original citizenship. The US did not take them over. The Palestinians being annexed are home. That is their homeland. Under PA rule - they (theoretically) had rights to vote for their representatives as citizens (realistically there hasn't been an election in years and it's overwhelmingly corrupt, no need to beat that dead horse). They are being annexed, by a foreign state, with no say in the matter. IMO, that means they should have a right to choose to become citizens of that new state, and have all the rights and responsibilities that entails (barring major crimes). If they choose.

On the one state agreement...vs two. What do the Palestinians want? A two-state solution, unless you go with the ideas flacaltenn proposed, which I like better than the Trump plan - or, you go with some version of what's proposed in the Trump plan, is no longer very tenable. From what I've read - support for a two state solution has been dropping both on the Palestinian side and on the Israeli side. What have you read?

The Palestinians are not being annexed, the land is being annexed. This is a good thing for the Palestinians living there. They have been living under Israeli civil and security governance since 1967, and now they will still be living under Israeli civil and security governance, but now they live under the Civil Administration, which is part of the IDF and after annexation, they will be living under the civil government the same as the rest of Israel. Their situation will be unchanged other than having access to all of Israel's considerable social services and being able to travel, work and live anywhere in Israel, things they have no access to now. They will remain citizens of the PA and will be able to vote in PA elections if they ever have them.

My point about your friend from the UK, is that she does not find not being able to vote in US elections or lose her green card if she leaves the US for too long sufficiently inconvenient to apply for US citizenship just as the vast majority of Palestinian residents in Israel do not find these things sufficiently inconvenient to apply for Israeli citizenship. You obviously have an agenda that is different from that of the Palestinian residents in Israel.

Netanyahu has been talking about the Trump plan and annexation frequently. If you do a Google search you will find lots of quotes on the subject. Here's one:

President Donald Trump’s “Deal of the Century”, said Netanyahu, “is the opportunity of a century for Israel. It enables Israel to secure our vital security and our vital national interests by recognizing Israel’s sovereignty over the Jordan Valley and over the Jewish communities that flourish in the heart of our ancestral homeland. It leaves open a path to a political settlement with the Palestinians, and it will help enable Israel to normalize our relations with our other Arab neighbors in the years ahead.”

“Last week, a joint US-Israel mapping committee began its work. It’s working as fast as possible to finish the job. I believe that work should be finished in the next couple of months. Israel would then apply its laws to all those territories that are designated by the Trump plan as being a part of Israel, and the United States will recognize those territories as part of Israel. This will be a truly historic day.”

“The map of Israel will change, the future of Israel will change, and it will change for the better,” said Netanyahu.

Netanyahu: Deal of the Century is the opportunity of a century for Israel - Jewish World

 

[rylah]

"Israelization"..."Judaization"...this is all gibberish.
The Jewish state is already a state of all its citizens.
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This is not a shop of privileges, but a process of a hostile population being separated from militants, given an option of residency and further citizenship.

Let's not talk in terms of warming up popcorn in a micro.

I will put this up front, Rylah - sometimes I think we disagree (violently) because like two ships passing in the night, we don't understand each other.

Can you tell me what you mean by this?''
Coincidentally it's those who currently claim it's not, who want the exact Jewish character of the nation that allows that what they call for. In reality, outside these meaningless soundbytes.
One thing is right, it's not immigration, so to suggest this addressed the same manner as Jewish immigration is irrelevant.

This time it's because of me,
I've somehow deleted a part in the 1st sentence.

The 'state of all its citizens' is a meaningless soundbyte,
used by those who want to cancel the Jewish character of Israel,
that provides the equality and quality of life to all the non Jewish citizens.

I guess I don't see how that would cancel the Jewish character of Israel. Israel has been established as a Jewish state, culturally, for a long time. Likewise, as a state that is the homeland of the Jewish people, who retain a special right of "return". Those have been enshrined for a long time without needing to be specified. That isn't going to change by recognizing that Israel is also nation of multiple peoples - not of immigrants per se, but multiple people's who were there from it's inception and who chose to accept citizenship.

I don't understand one thing as well, first you say its not an immigration matter,
then in the same breath say immigration policy should be framework.
Only makes sense if the argument is to change it, see above.

Not sure....

What do you mean by "doesn't need to be specified",
I though we were discussing exactly the specific details of a process to acquire citizenship.

I was jumping tracks a bit. I meant Israel's Jewish character and status as the homeland for the Jewish people.

Following obligations they can accept citizenship in the Jewish nation state,
multiple peoples can object, and seek multiple national aspirations somewhere else.

They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.

Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.

And was or is that a good thing?

They shouldn't have to go elsewhere - this is their homeland - they should have the same path to citizenship as Jews do.

The issue here is not that they're not Jews,
that is not what's going to solve it either, if I understand what you try to address here in practical terms.

But that they're subjects of an enemy state.
Even a Jew with American citizenship, say lived as resident under PA rule and participated in their hostilities, and/or public declaration of commitment to Israel's destruction or it enemies - would be as well considered potential danger to national security.

What we need here is a comprehensive framework, and time for people to decide if they want to apply for citizenship and join the Israeli Arab minority, or stay as residents and significantly increase their social security and quality of life, as well the.political power through regional elections that take place regularly,compared to citizenship under PA.

Except for destroying Israel, all the options are available, including applying for citizenship in any of the available countries with Arab majority where they expelled all they Jews.

Jews were loyal to any Arab rule in the middle east,
in spite having no option for citizenship, and predating their arrival...just sayin'.

And was or is that a good thing?

If they wanted to stay, that was the right thing to do,
In spite owning property there, Israelis don't demand those become their countries - and that's exactly the reason why some of them are reversing immigration policy for Jews they've expelled.

Morocco and Spain could only introduce those legal paths to citizenship knowing Jews didn't and are not conquering or claiming their countries, or sabotage their national sovereignty.

I have been saying this all along - if Arabs joined Israel and recognized its sovereignty, instead of fighting by default, we could all have mansions with enough land for each to graze our stock.

 

[xyz]

The Arabs prefer Israeli sovereignty over a Palestinian state
We have a choice: Sovereignty or a Palestinian State. Why does Israel need sovereignty in its Biblical Heartland?

Tamar Yonah speaks with Nadia Matar, co-chairwoman of Women in Green and The Sovereignty Movement.

Why should Israel choose sovereignty? Because of the security needs and dangers Israel faces by maintaining the status quo.

How would sovereignty benefit not just Israelis, but all people, and what about a Palestinian state? Guess what many Arabs would prefer.

Sovereignty or a Palestinian State? - The Tamar Yonah Show

The Palestinians were never offered a real independent state with its own military and border guards.

Don't they have an independent state in Jordan, its own military and border guards?
Let's not pretend that under international law Arabs were even entitled to all of that, ever.

And insisting on the opposite, is exactly what caused the stakes against them.
No Arab country actually wants anymore of those Jihadists to have military,
let alone to have their borders guarded by them, why should Israel?

Hamas kind of sucks, but the question is, is radicalization a reaction to Israel's policy?

 

[toomuchtime_]

The Arabs prefer Israeli sovereignty over a Palestinian state
We have a choice: Sovereignty or a Palestinian State. Why does Israel need sovereignty in its Biblical Heartland?

Tamar Yonah speaks with Nadia Matar, co-chairwoman of Women in Green and The Sovereignty Movement.

Why should Israel choose sovereignty? Because of the security needs and dangers Israel faces by maintaining the status quo.

How would sovereignty benefit not just Israelis, but all people, and what about a Palestinian state? Guess what many Arabs would prefer.

Sovereignty or a Palestinian State? - The Tamar Yonah Show

The Palestinians were never offered a real independent state with its own military and border guards.

Don't they have an independent state in Jordan, its own military and border guards?
Let's not pretend that under international law Arabs were even entitled to all of that, ever.

And insisting on the opposite, is exactly what caused the stakes against them.
No Arab country actually wants anymore of those Jihadists to have military,
let alone to have their borders guarded by them, why should Israel?

Hamas kind of sucks, but the question is, is radicalization a reaction to Israel's policy?

What policy are you referring to? Israel's existence?