Unarmed exchange student killed by homeowner

[Pogo]

You obviously don't have much of an idea of what can happen in these situations, one outcome of which is the hiding person is a criminal and can break into the door you lock in seconds and come at you. Most criminals know that a great many people don't have the nerve to pull the trigger and if they are high they might very well take the chance to rush you.

The home owner in this case did not know that the person hiding was a pranking student.

Why would that idea even come to mind?

True, the homeowner has no control over who decides to take his bait and walk in. It could indeed attract someone with ill intent.

So again, why would you set up that situation and put your girlfriend and child in potential danger in the first place? What kind of castle lord leaves his drawbridge down over the moat with a chest of gold visible on the other side, with his wench and his heir sitting in harm's way?

The castle lord who has fallen victim a couple times in the past and is reasonably in fear for his safety. The one who wants to put an end to the all too frequent invasions.
Tell me, possum? Do you or do you not shower before a date? Maybe a little cologne? Comb your hair? If you get "lucky", can your date charge you with rape because you put on some fancy cologne?

I trust this was a late-night post, because it makes no sense. Then again my castle lord analogy wasn't much better...

 

[Katzndogz]

Had the kid not been a thief, he would not have died. It is as simple as that.

 

[Kondor3]

They have laws against breaking and entering, burglary and trespassing in Germany, just like they do in most other developed countries.

The kid knew better than to attempt such nocturnal mischief on somebody else's property, regardless of how long he'd been in-country or how well he spoke English.

The kid paid with his life for his stupidity and his criminality.

Nature has de-selected him.

 

[Pogo]

Look! Self defense is a basic human instinct. If you enter my home in the middle of the night without my permission, I can only guess about your intentions.
Are you more apt to redecorate my living room, or rape my wife?

Damn! I can't be sure, but I am prepared for the later.
I have thwarted a rape attempt against my first wife in my home with a shotgun and an armed robbery and likely stabbing against myself with a revolver. Thankfully, I didn't need to take a life in either case, but I would have been justified.
No one is anxious to murder people. Murder is a crime. Self defense is not.

Then you did it right. And good on ya.

And I'm sure from what we know about your ethics that you also didn't set those situations up and lie in wait for a week so that you could trap them either.

Furthermore, going by the descriptions we have, your two incidents were far more threatening than this German kid, yet you settled yours without death and a kid who walked into a garage is blown away. What do you think that tells us?

I didn't feel terribly threatened in either case. I was armed. In the case of the attempted robbery, I played with the guy. He angled across the street towards me with his right hand behind his back. He asked for a cigarrette, which is "crackhead" for I'm about to stick you and take your money.
I figured I would see his true intent and said "Sure, buddy."
I unzipped my leather jacket and reached for my pack of smokes that were partially hidden by the grips of my Smith and Wesson Model 629 6" .44 magnum revolver.
He apparently gave up smoking right about then and ran. I saw the serated blade steak knife in his hand as he turned away from me.

I didn't ask this man to rob me, nor did I entice the other man to attempt to break down my door to rape my wife, though she was a damned good looking woman at the time. BUT, in both cases I was prepared to protect myself, my family and my property.

And again, you did the right thing and in no way provoked anybody to attack you. That's why it isn't comparable.

The proper analogy would be: you shuffle down the street looking inept and disheveled, with $20 bills hanging out of your pockets, and the first person that reaches for your pocket, you suddenly come to life and blow his head off.

This kid entered a private residence in the middle of the night, without permission. The homeowner would be STUPID to assume that he wasn't in danger.

Midnight, actually. And my question is: how stupid is Kaarma (and his girlfriend) for setting up the trap in the first place? Does that not put them all -- including a ten-month-old child -- in potential danger?

And this wasn't something that spontaneously "just happened" -- it was baited and planned a week out. The man described exacty what he was going to do, and then did exactly that. Doesn't get much more "premeditated" than that.

 

[Pogo]

You just don't get it! This kid was not shot as punishment for trespassing. He was shot to prevent him from harming the home's occupants and removing its contents. The homeowner could not possibly know his intentions beyond entering the home. He prudently assumed the worst.

-- No, not according to what he told his hairdresser a week before. Going by that, we can say the kid was shot because a trap was set and this happened to be the kid who took the bait. Hell, he even announced what he was going to do a week before.

I'm not sure how you get a situation foisted on you that you just have to decide on the spur of the moment how it should be handled ----- when you already bragged in detail what that decision was going to be a week before the event.

Which also raises the question -- how vulnerable was this house to burglaries really, if they set a trap and had to sit and wait a whole week before anyone took the bait?

Who took the bait? Was he forced to enter the garage by some unseen hand? Did he know that what he was doing was against the law? WHY did he enter someone else's home without permission?

The question at the end is this:
This Kaarma guy practicing vigilante justice who complains the police don't protect his bhong and stash in the garage -- to what degree does that observation hold water, if it took his trap of open garage with purse sitting there a week to get a result?

Who took the bait? Probably thiis teenage German exchange student. We have to say "probably" because we can never know what he would have taken or done had he not been wiped out in a shotgun strafe. Possibly nothing.

When I was a kid (much younger than 17) there was an old abandoned house in the neighborhood that was the subject of many a boyhood excursion by us local tykes -- curiousity about the old place and imagining what went on there. The place still had some furnishings and there were rumors of some Playboy magazines. One day I was accosted by a couple of adults on the scene, who in retrospect probably were there to do a real estate assessment or something. They grilled me on what I was doing there, where I lived, etc, all of which was probably reasonable. I was suitably chastised --- even though I hadn't taken anything from the house, at that time or any other time-- and never went back there again.

What they didn't do is pull guns on me or ambush me from behind and obliterate me in a hail of bullets. Had they done that I would hope they'd be rotting in jail to this day.

Think about it.

 

[Pogo]

-- No, not according to what he told his hairdresser a week before. Going by that, we can say the kid was shot because a trap was set and this happened to be the kid who took the bait. Hell, he even announced what he was going to do a week before.

I'm not sure how you get a situation foisted on you that you just have to decide on the spur of the moment how it should be handled ----- when you already bragged in detail what that decision was going to be a week before the event.

Which also raises the question -- how vulnerable was this house to burglaries really, if they set a trap and had to sit and wait a whole week before anyone took the bait?

Who took the bait? Was he forced to enter the garage by some unseen hand? Did he know that what he was doing was against the law? WHY did he enter someone else's home without permission?

You've been thoroughly thumped, Ernie. It's time to retreat with what little dignity you have left.

He fought a good clean fight though, which is more than we can say for Bowie Slowie...

 

[Pogo]

You obviously don't have much of an idea of what can happen in these situations, one outcome of which is the hiding person is a criminal and can break into the door you lock in seconds and come at you. Most criminals know that a great many people don't have the nerve to pull the trigger and if they are high they might very well take the chance to rush you.

The home owner in this case did not know that the person hiding was a pranking student.

Why would that idea even come to mind?

True, the homeowner has no control over who decides to take his bait and walk in. It could indeed attract someone with ill intent.

So again, why would you set up that situation and put your girlfriend and child in potential danger in the first place? What kind of castle lord leaves his drawbridge down over the moat with a chest of gold visible on the other side, with his wench and his heir sitting in harm's way?

A homeowner is not baiting a criminal by leaving his doors open or unlocked you stupid ass hole. You are blaming the criminals intended victim instead of putting it where it belongs; on the fucking criminal.

But we all know Pogo that you are a liar, a coward and a dullard, so I do not intend to attempt a discussion with you on this topic.

This is so plainly a righteous kill that only a fucking idiot would blame the homeowner here.

 

[Pogo]

America the beautiful, land of the free, home of the brave.

Most unfortunate indeed

-Geaux

Look, if you go to someone's house in the middle of the night and enter their garage or carport you need to be on your best behavior and make no sudden moves.

Too many robbers use an apparent friendliness to disarm the home owner by masking their true intentions till they can get in close enough to grab the gun, or if the owner is unarmed, to just knock them down or threaten them with a knife, machete, etc. The only defense the home owner has is to keep the intruder at a distance till things can be sorted out. This Japanese idiot needed to keep his distance.

How about some examples of why the owners should feel jumpy about people that appear on their property in the middle of the night?

Man gets life in prison sentence in home invasion case | Local News - KCCI Home

Prosecutors say evidence presented at a sentencing hearing in February showed that Patrie fatally shot Ken Gallmeyer while burglarizing his home outside Nashua.

Police: Shop owner struck repeatedly during armed robbery | Regional: Berks - Home
video:
Police: Shop owner struck repeatedly during armed robbery

Home Owner Shot During Robbery



Police: Bloomfield Twp. family tied up during home invasion - Fox 2 News Headlines

Police in Bloomfield Township say two robbers walked into a house on the 3000 block of Manchester Court Wednesday night through an unlocked garage door and held six people at gunpoint. A man in his sixties, four women between the ages of 25 and 54 and a six-year-old girl were inside the house.

Home Invasion Robbery, security consultant, Chris McGoey, home invasion robbery expert

Home invaders know that they won't have to overcome alarm systems when the home is occupied or be worried about video cameras and silent alarms. Unlike robbing a retail store, home invaders expect privacy once inside your home and won’t have to deal with the police suddenly driving up or customers walking in. Once the offenders take control of a residence they can force the occupants to open safes, locate hidden valuables, supply keys to the family car, and PIN numbers to their ATM cards. Home invaders will try to increase their escape time by disabling the phones and sometimes will leave their victims bound or incapacitated. It is not unheard of for robbers to load up the victim’s car with valuables and drive away without anyone in the neighborhood taking notice.

Method of Operation

The most common point of attack is through the front door or garage. Sometimes the home invader will simply kick open the door and confront everyone inside. More common is when the home invaders knock on the door first or ring the bell. The home invader hopes that the occupant will simply open the door, without question, in response to their knock. Unfortunately, many people do just that.

Home invaders will sometimes use a ruse or impersonation to get you to open the door. They have been known to pretend to be delivering a package, flowers or lie about an accident like hitting your parked car. Once the door is opened for them, the home invaders will use an explosive amount of force and threats to gain control of the home and produce fear in the victims. Once the occupants are under control the robbers will begin to collect your valuables.

Some home robbers have been known to spend hours ransacking a residence while the homeowners are bound nearby watching in terror. Some robbers have been known to eat meals, watch TV, or even take a nap. A major fear is that the robbers might commit more violence like sexual assault or even murder. Some robbers have kidnapped and forced a victim to withdraw cash from their ATM machine or take them to their small business to rob it as well.

Center for Problem-Oriented Policing | Problem Guides | Home Invasion Robbery

Home invasions make up a relatively small portion of all robberies. "Residential robbery" accounted for about 14 percent of all robberies in the United States in the late 1990s....

Am I going to risk my life and my family's safety by assuming this stranger in my garage might only be some idiot playing a prank? Hell no, but I will give him a chance to not get shot if he does exactly as I tell him and Hattori failed to do so, making his death his own damned fault.

--- but we don't have a gun culture, right?

 

[Pogo]

^^^LOL

So, I see you took some meds, had a few drinks and came back swinging. :LMAO:

You show contempt for the right of self defense while safely sitting at your computer and damn someone who was in a dangerous situation you do not share.

EDIT

-- but we don't have a culture of violence, right?
Certainly not one of misogyny or intolerance.

 

[Ernie S.]

-- No, not according to what he told his hairdresser a week before. Going by that, we can say the kid was shot because a trap was set and this happened to be the kid who took the bait. Hell, he even announced what he was going to do a week before.

I'm not sure how you get a situation foisted on you that you just have to decide on the spur of the moment how it should be handled ----- when you already bragged in detail what that decision was going to be a week before the event.

Which also raises the question -- how vulnerable was this house to burglaries really, if they set a trap and had to sit and wait a whole week before anyone took the bait?

Who took the bait? Was he forced to enter the garage by some unseen hand? Did he know that what he was doing was against the law? WHY did he enter someone else's home without permission?

You've been thoroughly thumped, Ernie. It's time to retreat with what little dignity you have left.

In YOUR mind, perhaps. I have yet to see you or Possum boy explain how he was "trapped". Did he not enter the garage under his own power? Had he simply walked on by Mr Kaarma's house that night, he would be alive. He, and he alone put himself into a situation where a homeowner had to respond.

 

[Pogo]

Well, as the latter quite often follows from the former, I would assume it is a safe guess.

I am not suggesting that this cretin is a prostitute, no, she is likely as physically repulsive as her thoughts are. I mean she will do anything she is told by her mental pimps who dictate to her what she will believe.

I am sure she is furiously trying to contact administrators now. We may well both be banned in short order. She has a visceral reaction to being called a "dingbat", although I can't imagine why.

Libtards do everything they can to shut up those who disagree with them by any means possible, so that wouldn't surprise me at all.

Really --- refresh my memory, who was it who called their adversaries:

• a liar, a coward and a dullard
• a fucking idiot
• leftwing nutcases
• low life shitheads
• fucking retard
• shameless bitch
• an inbred, low life, hypocritical whore

And ordered "shut the hell up and go live in a desert somewhere"

And that's just from this page alone... just so we know who's who here....
What do you do, sell all these negs on eBay?

By the way Slowie -- just to start at the top of the list .... what exactly did I "lie" about?

 

[Pogo]

And you have all the facts? I don't live in the US, though I am an American, and this is the first time I have heard of this incident. It appears the homeowner lay in wait for this guy and then shot at him in a darkened garage, not caring if he killed him and not knowing if this kid was armed or not or meant any bodily harm to the homeowners. It's murder as far as I am concerned: not self defense or defense of your home. Material possessions are not as important as human life and this was a young kid, only 17, and unarmed.

As I said: you people simply delight in killing other people.

So we pro 2nd Amendment "people" delight in killing ? You really said that ?

Nobody's brought up the Second Amendment. Nobody brought up "gun grabbing" either, except a couple of gun fetishists from the side arguing that it's OK to blow people away at random, and they did so as a strawman. So don't even bother; your fallacy has already been taken for a spin and recycled. Repeatedly.

 

[Pogo]

Who took the bait? Was he forced to enter the garage by some unseen hand? Did he know that what he was doing was against the law? WHY did he enter someone else's home without permission?

You've been thoroughly thumped, Ernie. It's time to retreat with what little dignity you have left.

In YOUR mind, perhaps. I have yet to see you or Possum boy explain how he was "trapped". Did he not enter the garage under his own power? Had he simply walked on by Mr Kaarma's house that night, he would be alive. He, and he alone put himself into a situation where a homeowner had to respond.

Do I need to download some kind of program that would let me draw stick diagrams?

What part of "cutting off the only exit" and "taking a sniper position" and "shooting back into the house" isn't clear? Does the word "ambush" ring a bell?

Again -- it's all in the criminal complaint Ernie. It's the whole reason the charge of "deliberate homicide" was levied in the first place.

 

[Ernie S.]

^^^LOL

So, I see you took some meds, had a few drinks and came back swinging. :LMAO:

You show contempt for the right of self defense while safely sitting at y9our computer and damn someone who was in a dangerous situation you do not share.

You are an inbred, low life, hypocritical whore.

You are the one who has no idea what he's talking about.

I have been in a situation where my life was threatened by someone with a gun. I have been the 'victim' of an attempted rape at knifepoint. And I'm not inbred by any means. I come from the lower economic scale of the working class.

You're making an ass out of yourself with your assumptions.

As well, your vicious and ugly name calling illustrates exactly what type of lowlife you are. You are the one hiding behind his computer calling women ugly names. I'll bet you don't do that in real life, not in front of your wife, mother, daughter, etc. Just a little pumped up internet coward.

Sorry for your confrontation, but, had it been my wife instead of you, the world would have one less rapist.

 

[Pogo]

You show contempt for the right of self defense while safely sitting at y9our computer and damn someone who was in a dangerous situation you do not share.

You are an inbred, low life, hypocritical whore.

You are the one who has no idea what he's talking about.

I have been in a situation where my life was threatened by someone with a gun. I have been the 'victim' of an attempted rape at knifepoint. And I'm not inbred by any means. I come from the lower economic scale of the working class.

You're making an ass out of yourself with your assumptions.

As well, your vicious and ugly name calling illustrates exactly what type of lowlife you are. You are the one hiding behind his computer calling women ugly names. I'll bet you don't do that in real life, not in front of your wife, mother, daughter, etc. Just a little pumped up internet coward.

Sorry for your confrontation, but, had it been my wife instead of you, the world would have one less rapist.

--

 

[Katzndogz]

-- No, not according to what he told his hairdresser a week before. Going by that, we can say the kid was shot because a trap was set and this happened to be the kid who took the bait. Hell, he even announced what he was going to do a week before.

I'm not sure how you get a situation foisted on you that you just have to decide on the spur of the moment how it should be handled ----- when you already bragged in detail what that decision was going to be a week before the event.

Which also raises the question -- how vulnerable was this house to burglaries really, if they set a trap and had to sit and wait a whole week before anyone took the bait?

Who took the bait? Was he forced to enter the garage by some unseen hand? Did he know that what he was doing was against the law? WHY did he enter someone else's home without permission?

The question at the end is this:
This Kaarma guy practicing vigilante justice who complains the police don't protect his bhong and stash in the garage -- to what degree does that observation hold water, if it took his trap of open garage with purse sitting there a week to get a result?

Who took the bait? Probably thiis teenage German exchange student. We have to say "probably" because we can never know what he would have taken or done had he not been wiped out in a shotgun strafe. Possibly nothing.

When I was a kid (much younger than 17) there was an old abandoned house in the neighborhood that was the subject of many a boyhood excursion by us local tykes -- curiousity about the old place and imagining what went on there. The place still had some furnishings and there were rumors of some Playboy magazines. One day I was accosted by a couple of adults on the scene, who in retrospect probably were there to do a real estate assessment or something. They grilled me on what I was doing there, where I lived, etc, all of which was probably reasonable. I was suitably chastised --- even though I hadn't taken anything from the house, at that time or any other time-- and never went back there again.

What they didn't do is pull guns on me or ambush me from behind and obliterate me in a hail of bullets. Had they done that I would hope they'd be rotting in jail to this day.

Think about it.

You were investigating an abandoned house right? You said it was abandoned. Entering a house that is abandoned is the opposite of entering a home that is occupied.

 

[Ernie S.]

C'mon Ernie - we did this last night in post 202 and the text of the criminal complaint in post 207. It's the basis of the charge.

Link to 202

You might argue that the man's partner enticed the burglar, but he sure didn't instigate or provoke it.
Mr Kaarma confronted a man who had illegally entered a part of his home. He was afraid for his safety and he fired into his garage. Had the young man NOT BEEN IN HIS GARAGE, he would not have been hit, now would he?

Nope, that would be physically impossible. Nobody disagrees with that.

Are we saying that this guy just regularly gets up during a TV commercial, bored, and strafes his own garage rather than simply closing the door -- just in case there's anybody in there, and this time there just happened to be a human?




Wrong on multiple levels.

Did the German kid brag to his hairdresser a week ahead that he was going to go garage hopping and dodge bullets? More to the point -- is there any reason in the world to expect that being in somebody else's garage would result in shotgun spray from the outside?

Exactly how is advancing to the adversary's only exit and opening fire from the outside (<< meaning, from the outside), in any way "defensive"? There are only two possible results from that scenario: depending on the intruder's position you either obliterate him or you drive him further into your property. Think about it.

If you're attacked at home by a knife-wielding maniac, is your objective to drive the maniac away, or to drive him further into your own house?

Yes I read the complaint. It differs substantially from the defense's description of the events.

It does indeed, if his attorney plans to argue "self-defense". Clearly there's enough in the statements taken in the complaint to kick all the legs out from under that one.

Obviously Kaarma doesn't want to do the time and needs to come up with something in the way of defense. But trying to make "self-defense" out of this is making a mockery of the law.

Please! Accept, on behalf of the deceased, some responsibility for the events that transpired.

All evidence tells us the deceased IS guilty of illegal trespass. Again, that's not in question. Kaarma is guilty of something far more serious than trespassing. Trespassing does not cause death.

We're not saying that at all. He had a baby monitor and motion detectors in the garage and knew there was an intruder in his residence.
We have yet to establish just how dark it was in the garage. Was there a street light nearby? Obviously there was enough light to discern a figure moving around in the garage but likely not enough light to be certain the figure was not a threat. The homeowner responded legally and appropriately to that threat.
Again! If the kid had not entered the garage, he would be alive. He instigated his own demise.

 

[Ernie S.]

True, the homeowner has no control over who decides to take his bait and walk in. It could indeed attract someone with ill intent.

So again, why would you set up that situation and put your girlfriend and child in potential danger in the first place? What kind of castle lord leaves his drawbridge down over the moat with a chest of gold visible on the other side, with his wench and his heir sitting in harm's way?

The castle lord who has fallen victim a couple times in the past and is reasonably in fear for his safety. The one who wants to put an end to the all too frequent invasions.
Tell me, possum? Do you or do you not shower before a date? Maybe a little cologne? Comb your hair? If you get "lucky", can your date charge you with rape because you put on some fancy cologne?

I trust this was a late-night post, because it makes no sense. Then again my castle lord analogy wasn't much better...

It wouldn't make sense to you, Pogo. You, apparently feel no responsibility to protect your family and property.

 

[Ernie S.]

Then you did it right. And good on ya.

And I'm sure from what we know about your ethics that you also didn't set those situations up and lie in wait for a week so that you could trap them either.

Furthermore, going by the descriptions we have, your two incidents were far more threatening than this German kid, yet you settled yours without death and a kid who walked into a garage is blown away. What do you think that tells us?

I didn't feel terribly threatened in either case. I was armed. In the case of the attempted robbery, I played with the guy. He angled across the street towards me with his right hand behind his back. He asked for a cigarrette, which is "crackhead" for I'm about to stick you and take your money.
I figured I would see his true intent and said "Sure, buddy."
I unzipped my leather jacket and reached for my pack of smokes that were partially hidden by the grips of my Smith and Wesson Model 629 6" .44 magnum revolver.
He apparently gave up smoking right about then and ran. I saw the serated blade steak knife in his hand as he turned away from me.

I didn't ask this man to rob me, nor did I entice the other man to attempt to break down my door to rape my wife, though she was a damned good looking woman at the time. BUT, in both cases I was prepared to protect myself, my family and my property.

And again, you did the right thing and in no way provoked anybody to attack you. That's why it isn't comparable.

The proper analogy would be: you shuffle down the street looking inept and disheveled, with $20 bills hanging out of your pockets, and the first person that reaches for your pocket, you suddenly come to life and blow his head off.

This kid entered a private residence in the middle of the night, without permission. The homeowner would be STUPID to assume that he wasn't in danger.

Midnight, actually. And my question is: how stupid is Kaarma (and his girlfriend) for setting up the trap in the first place? Does that not put them all -- including a ten-month-old child -- in potential danger?

And this wasn't something that spontaneously "just happened" -- it was baited and planned a week out. The man described exacty what he was going to do, and then did exactly that. Doesn't get much more "premeditated" than that.

Kaarma didn't put himself in danger by placing a purse in plain view. The kid placed himself in danger by entering the garage intending to steal it.

 

[Pogo]

Who took the bait? Was he forced to enter the garage by some unseen hand? Did he know that what he was doing was against the law? WHY did he enter someone else's home without permission?

The question at the end is this:
This Kaarma guy practicing vigilante justice who complains the police don't protect his bhong and stash in the garage -- to what degree does that observation hold water, if it took his trap of open garage with purse sitting there a week to get a result?

Who took the bait? Probably thiis teenage German exchange student. We have to say "probably" because we can never know what he would have taken or done had he not been wiped out in a shotgun strafe. Possibly nothing.

When I was a kid (much younger than 17) there was an old abandoned house in the neighborhood that was the subject of many a boyhood excursion by us local tykes -- curiousity about the old place and imagining what went on there. The place still had some furnishings and there were rumors of some Playboy magazines. One day I was accosted by a couple of adults on the scene, who in retrospect probably were there to do a real estate assessment or something. They grilled me on what I was doing there, where I lived, etc, all of which was probably reasonable. I was suitably chastised --- even though I hadn't taken anything from the house, at that time or any other time-- and never went back there again.

What they didn't do is pull guns on me or ambush me from behind and obliterate me in a hail of bullets. Had they done that I would hope they'd be rotting in jail to this day.

Think about it.

You were investigating an abandoned house right? You said it was abandoned. Entering a house that is abandoned is the opposite of entering a home that is occupied.

Abandoned, in that nobody lived in it -- but clearly I didn't own the place. It belonged to somebody. And the adults who cornered me there may have had a legitimate ownership claim, or permission from the owner. They certainly acted like it. Whether they actually slept in the place at night is irrelevant.

The point is how they handled me, versus how Kaarma handled this.

Again, the last line: think about it.