USMB POLL: Repeal the 16th Amendment (Income Tax)

[Procrustes Stretched]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical. But, when has government ever been ethical or morally sound?

The sheer idea of the state is the monopoly on the use of force and violence. That is the nicest thing that can be said about government. It is considered a necessary evil for a reason.

Excise taxes are soooo 19th century

Then why do we still have them today? Direct taxation of a man's labor is very 17th century, yet you are here advocating it.

Then again, Dainte, you're a troll like most of the posters here with the modern liberal persuasion.

good gawd! thank you for the compliment

Thanks for the admission of being a troll. it helps so as not to take you seriously or waste energy on actual debate. Much obliged.

take a step back and look in the mirror -- you're a troll, a tool and a fool

true story

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical. But, when has government ever been ethical or morally sound?

The sheer idea of the state is the monopoly on the use of force and violence. That is the nicest thing that can be said about government. It is considered a necessary evil for a reason.

Excise taxes are soooo 19th century

I believe the Communists love outright confiscation.

It appears that Cuba has seen the light so maybe you should travel to Venezuela to experience up close and in person the Chavez Revolution.

.

cross the bridge into the 20th century, then we'll be able to help carry you over the bridge to the 21st century

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical. But, when has government ever been ethical or morally sound?

The sheer idea of the state is the monopoly on the use of force and violence. That is the nicest thing that can be said about government. It is considered a necessary evil for a reason.

Excise taxes are soooo 19th century

Then why do we still have them today? Direct taxation of a man's labor is very 17th century, yet you are here advocating it.

Then again, Dainte, you're a troll like most of the posters here with the modern liberal persuasion.

good gawd! thank you for the compliment

Thanks for the admission of being a troll. it helps so as not to take you seriously or waste energy on actual debate. Much obliged.

take a step back and look in the mirror -- you're a troll, a tool and a fool

true story

Like I said already, I appreciate your admission to being a worthless troll. You might have had a retort to the actual subject at hand otherwise. But we know better, don't we Dainte?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Excise taxes are soooo 19th century

Then why do we still have them today? Direct taxation of a man's labor is very 17th century, yet you are here advocating it.

Then again, Dainte, you're a troll like most of the posters here with the modern liberal persuasion.

good gawd! thank you for the compliment

Thanks for the admission of being a troll. it helps so as not to take you seriously or waste energy on actual debate. Much obliged.

take a step back and look in the mirror -- you're a troll, a tool and a fool

true story

Like I said already, I appreciate your admission to being a worthless troll. You might have had a retort to the actual subject at hand otherwise. But we know better, don't we Dainte?

Dante is offended by your unauthorized use of the term 'we' in this context

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

bye bye

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical. But, when has government ever been ethical or morally sound?

The sheer idea of the state is the monopoly on the use of force and violence. That is the nicest thing that can be said about government. It is considered a necessary evil for a reason.

Excise taxes are soooo 19th century

I believe the Communists love outright confiscation.

It appears that Cuba has seen the light so maybe you should travel to Venezuela to experience up close and in person the Chavez Revolution.

.

cross the bridge into the 20th century, then we'll be able to help carry you over the bridge to the 21st century

Is that why you advocate 17th century economic slavery?

 

[Contumacious]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical. But, when has government ever been ethical or morally sound?

The sheer idea of the state is the monopoly on the use of force and violence. That is the nicest thing that can be said about government. It is considered a necessary evil for a reason.

Excise taxes are soooo 19th century

I believe the Communists love outright confiscation.

It appears that Cuba has seen the light so maybe you should travel to Venezuela to experience up close and in person the Chavez Revolution.

.

cross the bridge into the 20th century, then we'll be able to help carry you over the bridge to the 21st century

If the bridge takes me to communism and parasitic tyranny, then we will

 

[Contumacious]

bye bye

Can't Take da' heat get the fuck out of the kitchen.

 

[SwimExpert]

The Income Tax is wrong and the IRS as we know it, needs to go. There are better ways to tax and collect taxes. Time to get rid of the IRS. It's a corrupt cancerous bureaucracy at this point.

What makes it "wrong," other than the fact that it's tax and nobody likes having to pay taxes?

I am not Paul but Ill answer this anyway as I don't think that Paul actually has an answer other than what you already stated

Its wrong because tax law and the IRS no longer serve the purpose that they are supposed to serve (funding the government). Instead, we have a tax code that is far more interested in social engineering than it is in actually properly funding the government. We have a tax code that thrives on taxes that are wholly hidden to the taxpayer.

Wage earners do not pay 7.5% in SS taxes - they pay 15% but the tax man does not want you to actually know what you are really paying into the system - it would piss you off. Same thing with a host of other taxes. Then the wealthy are able to enjoy a host of tax 'breaks' that do nothing in actually funding the nation but certainly help big business (many of the ones enjoying those breaks) defeat small upstarts that would give them real competition.

Then the federal government is able to tax the cash a state needs to build roads and then, essentally, gift it back to them if they sing the federal governments tune. How much power do you actually think that a state has when the feds can force money out of it and hold its return based on it falling in line? None. The idea that we have a federal system of governance anymore is fallacy and it has a LOT to do with the fact that the feds are a middle man in the flow of money from the states own populace. Tax monies that should be going straight to the state without federal involvement.

Why do you get a cash payment from the IRS when you have a child? Why do you get a tax break for buying a specific window or water heater? What have these things to do with funding the government? Nothing of course. What they have to do with is CONTROL and POWER. We need to eliminate that particular power - it is getting grossly out of control.

That was nothing more than an emotional tirade about why you hate the government. It does not say anything about why income tax is "wrong."

 

[The2ndAmendment]

That was nothing more than an emotional tirade about why you hate the government. It does not say anything about why income tax is "wrong."

Dante's sock joins (rejoins, adjoins?) the fight.

 

[zeke]

Thanks for the admission of being a troll. it helps so as not to take you seriously or waste energy on actual debate.

You so fucking stupid you think this is a "debate" forum. And that people would take your bullshit seriously. Seriously? You're an idiot troll. Ok to bust your chops cause you say plenty of stupid shit. But that's it.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Thanks for the admission of being a troll. it helps so as not to take you seriously or waste energy on actual debate.

You so fucking stupid you think this is a "debate" forum. And that people would take your bullshit seriously. Seriously? You're an idiot troll. Ok to bust your chops cause you say plenty of stupid shit. But that's it.

Another troll chimes in. Frankly, I cant decide if you, dante, Job and a handful of others are all just the same person. You all say the same shit, you lack intellectual fortitude so heavily it is hard to believe you can walk and chew gum simultaneously.

 

[Skylar]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical.

Why is direct taxation 'immoral and unethical'? Explain it to us

 

[bripat9643]

Every time I find a new angle in which imperial cultural marxists have wrought destruction upon this nation, I realize that it's the 16th Amendment that gives them the funding to carry out their treason against the Constitution of the United States. From the welfare state (democrats) to the imperialists (republicans), it seems that both of them fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

We pay for the destruction of our own liberties at home and the desolation of foreign nations abroad.

You hate the US Constitution!

The 16th amendment is there because god told the framers to put an amendment process in place so future generations could make things better.

Shame on you!

Are you saying anyone who wants to repeal an Amendment hates the Constitution?

Nope, I'm saying that anyone who hates every change to the constitution, while claiming any change violates the spirit of it, is wholly uninformed and woefully ignorant. People can disagree about the amendments, but your cafeteria style adoration of the document is f()ked

Since no one ever claimed that your accusation is groundless.

you have and it is an indictment of your pathetic attempts to portray yourself as MORE American than others

Horseshit.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical.

Why is direct taxation 'immoral and unethical'? Explain it to us

Because direct taxation lives under the assumption that the government owns you, owns your productivity and provides you with the ability to keep some of what you produce - a percentage.

The constitution needed to be amended in order to provide a direct income taxation in 1913. The founders saw it the same way I do - as immoral, as unethical and ultimately economic slavery.

If you think people should be free, then this starts by owning their own production and not being serfs or slaves to the State. There was a time when this was well understood.

So, the real question is how is direct taxation ethical or moral, not how is it not.

 

[johnwk]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical.

Why is direct taxation 'immoral and unethical'? Explain it to us

Because direct taxation lives under the assumption that the government owns you, owns your productivity and provides you with the ability to keep some of what you produce - a percentage.

The constitution needed to be amended in order to provide a direct income taxation in 1913. The founders saw it the same way I do - as immoral, as unethical and ultimately economic slavery.

If you think people should be free, then this starts by owning their own production and not being serfs or slaves to the State. There was a time when this was well understood.

So, the real question is how is direct taxation ethical or moral, not how is it not.

There is nothing in the 16th Amendment allowing for a direct tax which is not apportioned! Direct taxes are still required to be apportioned.


Shortly after the 16th Amendment was adopted the Court in Stanton v. Baltic Mining Co. (1916) confirmed that the 16 Amendment granted no new power of taxation. The Court states in crystal clear language:


"...by the previous ruling (the previous ruling was Brushaber v. Union Pacific R.R. Co. 1916), it was settled that the provisions of the 16th Amendment conferred no new power of taxation but simply prohibited the previous complete and plenary power of income taxation possessed by Congress from the beginning from being taken out of the category of INDIRECT taxation to which it inherently belonged.."




Later, in Eisner v. Macomber 252 U.S. 189, 206 (1920), a case dealing with direct vs. indirect taxation, the tax was struck down as being direct and not apportioned. The Court stated:


A proper regard for its genesis, as well as its very clear language, requires also that this amendment shall not be extended by loose construction, so as to repeal or modify, except as applied to income, those provisions of the Constitution that require an apportionment according to population for direct taxes upon property, real and personal. This limitation still has an appropriate and important function, and is not to be overridden by Congress or disregarded by the courts.



--- cut ---


Thus, from every point of view, we are brought irresistibly to the conclusion that neither under the Sixteenth Amendment nor otherwise has Congress power to tax without apportionment a true stock dividend made lawfully and in good faith, or the accumulated profits behind it, as income of the stockholder. The Revenue Act of 1916, insofar as it imposes a tax upon the stockholder because of such dividend, contravenes the provisions of Article I, § 2, cl. 3, and Article I, § 9, cl. 4, of the Constitution, and to this extent is invalid notwithstanding the Sixteenth Amendment.



A few years latter in another case dealing with direct vs. indirect taxation, in BROMLEY VS MCCAUGHN, 280 U.S. 124 (1929), the Court emphatically stated “As the present tax is not apportioned, it is forbidden, if direct.”


And let us not forget that even Justice Roberts stated in the Obamacare case:



The shared responsibility payment is thus not a direct tax that must be apportioned among the several States.



The truth is, Article 1, Section 9, Clause 4 has never been repealed and declares:



No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall be laid, unless in Proportion to the Census or Enumeration herein before directed to be taken.



JWK





“Honest money and honest taxation, the Key to America’s future Prosperity“ ___ from “Prosperity Restored by the State Rate Tax Plan”, no longer in print.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Every time I find a new angle in which imperial cultural marxists have wrought destruction upon this nation, I realize that it's the 16th Amendment that gives them the funding to carry out their treason against the Constitution of the United States. From the welfare state (democrats) to the imperialists (republicans), it seems that both of them fund their Big Government Tyranny (internally and externally) by garnishing our wages.

We pay for the destruction of our own liberties at home and the desolation of foreign nations abroad.

How did the govt pay it's bills in 1798?

Uhm, err, ah, like, like you know...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Thanks for the admission of being a troll. it helps so as not to take you seriously or waste energy on actual debate.

You so fucking stupid you think this is a "debate" forum. And that people would take your bullshit seriously. Seriously? You're an idiot troll. Ok to bust your chops cause you say plenty of stupid shit. But that's it.

Another troll chimes in. Frankly, I cant decide if you, dante, Job and a handful of others are all just the same person. You all say the same shit, you lack intellectual fortitude so heavily it is hard to believe you can walk and chew gum simultaneously.

when you believe everyone else is a troll it's like when you believe it is everyone else who is crazy. time for a rest

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Excise taxes are far less nefarious. Direct taxation is both immoral and unethical.

Why is direct taxation 'immoral and unethical'? Explain it to us

Because direct taxation lives under the assumption that the government owns you, owns your productivity ...

no it does not.

What it does is say if you want to enjoy the benefits of our communal society you have to pay your way

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The constitution needed to be amended in order to provide a direct income taxation in 1913. The founders saw it the same way I do - as immoral, as unethical and ultimately economic slavery.

Oh please, slaves are NOT free to leave. You are. And stop hiding behind the 'Founders'


sheehs!