Wasn't Anyone In That Nightclub Armed? Not One With A Gun?

[MikeK]

Which is bad, clearly, as this leads to people getting shot..... time to repeal that law then, hey?

Know what else leads to people getting shot? Pissed off ISIS sympathizers with AR-15s. And they know the best places to do their thing are those where people are prohibited by law from possessing the means to defend themselves and others.

Will relaxing the no-guns-in-bars law result in shooting incidents. Yes. No doubt about it. But not nearly as many as you might think. So which risk would you prefer? The occasional drunk with a .38, or the suicidal shahid with an AK or AR?

Today is not yesterday.

 

[MikeK]

you do know that cars was invented and that John Wayne was a movie actor, yes?

I think you're trying to say something via metaphor but your IQ isn't up to the task. So why not simply say what is on your mind in terms you are better equipped to use?

Give it a try.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

If you go into certain sections of Miami every one in the freaking bar is armed. Jihad maniacs always pick soft targets and there ain't nothing softer than a gay bar in Orlando. It just occurred to me that Disney World might be impacted by so many homosexual deaths.

People have been asking in another thread why gays don't vote Republican. Well, here ya go......

 

[aris2chat]

Alcohol and guns don't mix. Only one if any might be security that is armed, but in a night club, I rather he not have more than a taser. Even security with guns in a crowed club is highly dangerous.

Pissed off Muslims with AR-15s are kinda dangerous, too, wouldn't you say? And we are now subject to more incidents of like the latest mass shooting, so wouldn't you also say it's time to start being prepared?

As an American, there has to be a justifiable reason for not allowing them their right to keep and bare arms.

Find a reason and take it to a judge. Just being muslim is not enough reason.

It would be magical to see days, months and years into the future and know who should be denied, but without cause, we can't.

Tap into radical sites and see who is saying what. Homeland does not always have a reason for a no fly or uses erroneous information or just a similar name but wrong age or address.

Homeland/FBI needs to work with local police if these people are to be stopped. Without all the facts, we will be just spinning our wheels going nowhere.

 

[MikeK]

[...]

But the notion that every citizen should go about carrying firearms to act in the capacity of ‘law enforcement’ is as delusional as it is pathetic.

Where did I suggest that "every" citizen should act in a law-enforcement capacity?

Are you delusional? Or does this kind of distorted exaggeration usually work for you?

 

[MikeK]

But then again it only takes one crazy who doesn't care about his or her life.

Take your pick, a crazy drunk with a handgun or a sober, dedicated, suicidal Muslim shahid with a high-capacity semi-auto rifle?

Your choice.

 

[MikeK]

Especially when drunk at 2am while dancing with their glock down their panties on a hot night.

A Glock is much too big to be carrying concealed. There are much better choices.

 

[2aguy]

Which is bad, clearly, as this leads to people getting shot..... time to repeal that law then, hey?

Know what else leads to people getting shot? Pissed off ISIS sympathizers with AR-15s. And they know the best places to do their thing are those where people are prohibited by law from possessing the means to defend themselves and others.

Will relaxing the no-guns-in-bars law result in shooting incidents. Yes. No doubt about it. But not nearly as many as you might think. So which risk would you prefer? The occasional drunk with a .38, or the suicidal shahid with an AK or AR?

Today is not yesterday.

Virginia allowed concealed carry in bars last year..after a year...their Bar crime rate went down 5.9%.......

 

[MikeK]

As an American, there has to be a justifiable reason for not allowing them their right to keep and bare arms.

Find a reason and take it to a judge. Just being muslim is not enough reason.

It would be magical to see days, months and years into the future and know who should be denied, but without cause, we can't.

Tap into radical sites and see who is saying what. Homeland does not always have a reason for a no fly or uses erroneous information or just a similar name but wrong age or address.

Homeland/FBI needs to work with local police if these people are to be stopped. Without all the facts, we will be just spinning our wheels going nowhere.

My comment calls for being "prepared," which means there needs to be more armed citizens at large in all areas of the public mainstream.

Re: your stated concern, which is the right of American Muslims to own guns. At the present time there is no formal opposition to that. But a few more terrorist incidents involving Muslims could prompt the election of an extreme right-wing President, which very well might result in actions as radical as the internment of the Japanese during WW-II.

Enough is enough.

 

[FA_Q2]

Funny how:

People gun shot up and killed with gun control = gun control doesn't work.
People get shot up and killed without gun control = we need more guns.

Woossshhhhhh!

Obviously gun control worked and nothing happened. The problem is you insist on believing what you are fed by the captive media.

You know I'm right because you're reading it on an internet blog, right?

Well clearly guns didn't work either....

What, exactly, have I been fed by the media? Oh, wait, no, you're just attacking me rather than discussing the issue.

Here's the deal.

There was a mass shooting in Paris by quite a few guys, 130 died. There's one in Florida where potentially 50 have died at the hands of, what looks like at the moment, one guy.

The difference?

The difference is that the French murder rate is about 1.0 and the US murder rate is about 4.0, and 3/4 of all murders in the US happen with guns.

There's your difference. Oh, that and France didn't go to war in Iraq and still got attacked, whereas the US was most responsible for the invasion of Iraq and got hit.

Gun control is not the cause of the lower homicide rate in France.

Gun control before and after statistics shows that it has almost zero net impact on such things - or at least not enough to make a definitive answer that it helps.

Are you sure about that?


This is a complex issue, but certainly gun control has an impact. What we can't do is look at statistics and say "look, gun control did this", why? Because gun control doesn't live apart from all the other things in the world.

Australia's murder rate. It's gone down steadily since stricter gun controls were introduced.

We could look at the UK, but that would be a waste of time, since the Dunblaine laws were introduced crime may have gone up or down, but guns weren't that available anyway.

What we do know is that there are only three cities over 250,000 in the USA with a lower murder rate than Canada's, and only one city with a murder rate lower than most of western Europe.

Why is this? The US evolved out of England, it has many similar things, like innocent until proven guilty. What went wrong in the US to make it have a murder rate that's 4 times higher than the UK's, and also with 3/4 of murders with guns?

Australa - the lone example that you pull out among the myriad of other examples that disprove causation is also a very weak case as the homicide rate did not decline for 7 years after the law was passed. To assign the reduction in the homicide rate to the gun law does not simply follow considering the large time lag from passage to results. Why do you attribute the decline to strict gun control when the time lag is so large? This is always the go-to for gun control advocates but it is a horrible example. Not only does it fail to produce any real causation but it is also a lone example out of many that show the opposite effect.

You mention Canada as well. Homicide rates between nations in reference to gun control is nonsensical to say the least. Again, no causation is proven at all with those examples as there are a million other variables to take into account. From another conversation I had with Brain on this topic:
Police-reported crime statistics in Canada, 2011
official Canadian source on this with some good data.

All violent crime (except sexual assault against children) have been on a gradual down trend since 1980 and the data in your thumbnail is outright false. There is simply no discernible way for me to fit the increase in your cite with the actual numbers. It looks as though the gun law had little to no effect in Canada as well with the homicide rate starting at 2.5 and decreasing to just under 2.0 after a decade

We can see that directly after the law was passed (I did not check the date but I am going off of your 1991 timeframe) a sharp increase in homicides tool place, leveled out the next year and then continues the same downward trend that had been going on the previous years. Note: I am NOT attributing the spike to gun laws – spikes happen and that is a given. That trend line dies not really change at all. As far as I can tell, this is not a good piece of evidence for gun control, the law does not look like it altered the trend at all.

Further, the piece that interests me quite a bit is the fact that attempted murders and actual murders have CONVERGED a lot after the law passed. That went from a full point in difference to just .1 difference. That is, 40% of attempted murders FAILED and now a pithy 2% fail. Possible that might be due to people lacking protection but the criminals not lacking the offensive means to kill? I believe that is likely but I would need to pull up more evidence to support so I will just leave that as an interesting thing to think about for the time being.

All said and done, I don't think Canada is the example you were looking for unless you can present this data in another way.

 

[rdean]

Can you imagine a conservative police officer finding an armed gay? Look at what they do to blacks who are only carrying a toy.

 

[FA_Q2]

I'm talking about body armor. If someone just opens up, how long is it going to take you to get your gun? How long is it going to take for that bullet to go down the barrel and fly through the air and hit you?

Think about it.

Think about this:

You may rest assured that during that shooting incident there must have been numerous occasions when someone was close enough to that shooter, as the shooter was aiming away or changing magazines, to drop one right behind his ear. It's just too bad that none of these hypothetical individuals didn't have a gun in his pocket, or on his ankle, or wherever.

Think about it this way, if the guy hadn't have had a gun, the security at the club would have dealt with it after the first person he punched, had he had a knife maybe one or two people injured or dead.

And it is delusional to think that you are going to stop these people from obtaining a weapon - be it a gun or a bomb.

As said before - criminals do not follow the law.

 

[FA_Q2]

I'm thinking Mike.
I go to ball room dancing about once a week or other dancing clubs mixed with different age levels.
Dancing with a gun in my ankle, waist or under my arm........ is extremely difficult. Or I can say on the table........ Can you hold my 38 while I go dancing? Is that real?
In a shooting like this are you going to stand there let say 5 or 10 feet waiting for this thug to run out of ammo then tackle him?

There are guns available which can fit in a pocket. These are opportunistic weapons that are effective at close range. But the opportunity increases by the number of people who have them.

And these times call for the inconvenience of carrying a gun.

Really.

Millions of people visit clubs every week.

50 of them died. The number that are killed getting home is magnitudes larger. These times really do not call for anything. Most of this is sensationalized. It was a tragedy, yes, but quite frankly the 'jihadist' threat is minuscule compared to the myriad of other threats that you face every day.

If you feel the need by all means carry. I love those that carry - they do not simply protect themselves but they crate a general blanket of protection for all those around them as well as all those that are out in general as the criminals do not know who may or may not be armed. That does not mean that today is significantly different in the need to have responsible conceled carry individuals around.

 

[FA_Q2]

There had to be well over a hundred people in that club. Not one individual with a gun? Even if the possibility was narrow there is a chance that someone with a .38 could have taken this guy out.

I am prepared to be very pissed off at the first nitwit to come out for more gun control as a means of preventing these shootings. We may rest assured this is just one in a progression of internal terror attacks we have to look forward to -- and the way to deal with the threat is more armed, trained citizens.

Trained citizens never stop these sorts of things. MOstly because the reason why they want a gun is because they are cowards, and cowards don't run to danger.

That's why civilians NEVER stop these kinds of incidents.

Jesus your an idiot. I own a gun and I'm far from a coward.

You who don't own a gun and are the coward. Afraid to defend yourselves and wait for the police to finally show up to do so hoping that they make it there to put their lives on the line defending your sorry ass.

An idiot you truly are.

I guess I have lived a charmed life for 50 years? Been lucky?

I have never needed a gun to protect myself, I've never even felt I needed a gun to protect myself, I've never even been scared or frightened by anyone, and wished for a gun....

Does everyone live in scary bad neighborhoods and this is where this need for a gun comes from?

I suppose I should count my blessings.....

You should but the need to have a weapon has little to do with where you are or how lucky you may have been up to this point. It is simply a prudent decision if you are responsible enough to shoulder that burden.

I have never needed my seat belt. Not once has it ever done anything for me other than be uncomfortable. I do not go around believing that those that wear one must live in fear of crashing or drive roads that are inundated with horrible drivers. I also always use it - not because I have felt the need for it before or that I think I am going to need it but because it is simply silly not to use it - I do not want to need it and then realize that I didn't use it when my head smacks the concrete.

 

[aris2chat]

Gun.......knife...........

Policeman was knifed to death by ISIS in Paris

 

[frigidweirdo]

There had to be well over a hundred people in that club. Not one individual with a gun? Even if the possibility was narrow there is a chance that someone with a .38 could have taken this guy out.

I am prepared to be very pissed off at the first nitwit to come out for more gun control as a means of preventing these shootings. We may rest assured this is just one in a progression of internal terror attacks we have to look forward to -- and the way to deal with the threat is more armed, trained citizens.

It's the clear difference between a terrorist hitting a mall in Tel Aviv and a terrorist hitting a night club in Orlando. Israel only had 4 causalities and America had 50. Israeli's are armed and prepared because they understand it's not a question of if ,it's a question of when. American's create gun free zones, safe spaces and have a leader who flat out refuses to admit there's a problem much less prepare for it. If one guy had a gun and was a decent shot he could have killed this moron before he took out half the club. It takes too long to wait for the police to arrive and save your ass in an active shooter situation as the unfortunate people who hid in the bathroom of the club found out.

Israeli Malls probably have tight security. A night club anywhere in the US isn't going to have that tight security, it's not practical.

Why not? When I went to my daughters graduation they checked my bags. My kids schools do the same. They could at least have armed bouncers and employee's in nightclubs. Some security is better than none. But it's not even that really. It's our lack of preparation and our refusal as a society to admit we have a problem with radicalized Islam. We are at war with radicalized Islam because they are at war with us. We need to have our leaders tell the public this, not blame guns as an easy out. These nut jobs aren't going to go away. We need to prepare. We need to know what to do in an active shooter situation. When you enter a building you need to find out where to go and where not to go. You need to know how best to protect yourself. We all need to know how to defend ourselves in this situation because it's going to happen to again. The fact still remains one person with a gun could have stopped this in it's tracks.The president would have you think guns are the enemy. Gun's aren't the enemy,nut jobs are.

Well, they might check bags and things, for things like, you know, GUNS..... I didn't say they didn't have security. Just they don't have security to necessarily deal with a third world country invading.

Every nightclub I've been to there was security, we're not talking about some fat dude making sure you're not taking in your own drinks, or a knife. We're talking about dealing with a guy intent on shooting everyone up. Imagine the costs if all nightclubs had to deal with that kind of security.

I agree the cost would be high but that extra cost could be passed on to the customers in the cover charge. Sounds like there were at least 150 people in that club. An extra $2.00 could cover the added cost of a armed security guard. They could even call it security charge. The only other solution is to let customers carry concealed or have regular employee's carry concealed. Personally I'd rather have staff carry concealed. Alcohol and guns don't mix well.

Personally I'd rather not live in a world of fear.

When I was in South Africa I felt like there was a lot of fear in the big cities. I wouldn't and couldn't live my life like that.

 

[aris2chat]

It's the clear difference between a terrorist hitting a mall in Tel Aviv and a terrorist hitting a night club in Orlando. Israel only had 4 causalities and America had 50. Israeli's are armed and prepared because they understand it's not a question of if ,it's a question of when. American's create gun free zones, safe spaces and have a leader who flat out refuses to admit there's a problem much less prepare for it. If one guy had a gun and was a decent shot he could have killed this moron before he took out half the club. It takes too long to wait for the police to arrive and save your ass in an active shooter situation as the unfortunate people who hid in the bathroom of the club found out.

Israeli Malls probably have tight security. A night club anywhere in the US isn't going to have that tight security, it's not practical.

Why not? When I went to my daughters graduation they checked my bags. My kids schools do the same. They could at least have armed bouncers and employee's in nightclubs. Some security is better than none. But it's not even that really. It's our lack of preparation and our refusal as a society to admit we have a problem with radicalized Islam. We are at war with radicalized Islam because they are at war with us. We need to have our leaders tell the public this, not blame guns as an easy out. These nut jobs aren't going to go away. We need to prepare. We need to know what to do in an active shooter situation. When you enter a building you need to find out where to go and where not to go. You need to know how best to protect yourself. We all need to know how to defend ourselves in this situation because it's going to happen to again. The fact still remains one person with a gun could have stopped this in it's tracks.The president would have you think guns are the enemy. Gun's aren't the enemy,nut jobs are.

Well, they might check bags and things, for things like, you know, GUNS..... I didn't say they didn't have security. Just they don't have security to necessarily deal with a third world country invading.

Every nightclub I've been to there was security, we're not talking about some fat dude making sure you're not taking in your own drinks, or a knife. We're talking about dealing with a guy intent on shooting everyone up. Imagine the costs if all nightclubs had to deal with that kind of security.

I agree the cost would be high but that extra cost could be passed on to the customers in the cover charge. Sounds like there were at least 150 people in that club. An extra $2.00 could cover the added cost of a armed security guard. They could even call it security charge. The only other solution is to let customers carry concealed or have regular employee's carry concealed. Personally I'd rather have staff carry concealed. Alcohol and guns don't mix well.

Personally I'd rather not live in a world of fear.

When I was in South Africa I felt like there was a lot of fear in the big cities. I wouldn't and couldn't live my life like that.

I lived through war, massacres and car bombs. I tried to block out that part of my life for years. Can't live in fear. Caution, but not fear. Every morning is a new day. Yesterday was then, not now.

Never easy trying to pick up the pieces. I've seen men cry in the morning and a few hours later they are sweeping the side walk and trying to salvage what they can.

Mourn, but don't make it your whole life's purpose. It can't reverse the past.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Israeli Malls probably have tight security. A night club anywhere in the US isn't going to have that tight security, it's not practical.

Why not? When I went to my daughters graduation they checked my bags. My kids schools do the same. They could at least have armed bouncers and employee's in nightclubs. Some security is better than none. But it's not even that really. It's our lack of preparation and our refusal as a society to admit we have a problem with radicalized Islam. We are at war with radicalized Islam because they are at war with us. We need to have our leaders tell the public this, not blame guns as an easy out. These nut jobs aren't going to go away. We need to prepare. We need to know what to do in an active shooter situation. When you enter a building you need to find out where to go and where not to go. You need to know how best to protect yourself. We all need to know how to defend ourselves in this situation because it's going to happen to again. The fact still remains one person with a gun could have stopped this in it's tracks.The president would have you think guns are the enemy. Gun's aren't the enemy,nut jobs are.

Well, they might check bags and things, for things like, you know, GUNS..... I didn't say they didn't have security. Just they don't have security to necessarily deal with a third world country invading.

Every nightclub I've been to there was security, we're not talking about some fat dude making sure you're not taking in your own drinks, or a knife. We're talking about dealing with a guy intent on shooting everyone up. Imagine the costs if all nightclubs had to deal with that kind of security.

I agree the cost would be high but that extra cost could be passed on to the customers in the cover charge. Sounds like there were at least 150 people in that club. An extra $2.00 could cover the added cost of a armed security guard. They could even call it security charge. The only other solution is to let customers carry concealed or have regular employee's carry concealed. Personally I'd rather have staff carry concealed. Alcohol and guns don't mix well.

Personally I'd rather not live in a world of fear.

When I was in South Africa I felt like there was a lot of fear in the big cities. I wouldn't and couldn't live my life like that.

I lived through war, massacres and car bombs. I tried to block out that part of my life for years. Can't live in fear. Caution, but not fear. Every morning is a new day. Yesterday was then, not now.

Never easy trying to pick up the pieces. I've seen men cry in the morning and a few hours later they are sweeping the side walk and trying to salvage what they can.

Mourn, but don't make it your whole life's purpose. It can't reverse the past.

Yeah, people try and block it out. I try and live somewhere where I don't need to block it out.

 

[Unkotare]

Israeli Malls probably have tight security. A night club anywhere in the US isn't going to have that tight security, it's not practical.

Why not? When I went to my daughters graduation they checked my bags. My kids schools do the same. They could at least have armed bouncers and employee's in nightclubs. Some security is better than none. But it's not even that really. It's our lack of preparation and our refusal as a society to admit we have a problem with radicalized Islam. We are at war with radicalized Islam because they are at war with us. We need to have our leaders tell the public this, not blame guns as an easy out. These nut jobs aren't going to go away. We need to prepare. We need to know what to do in an active shooter situation. When you enter a building you need to find out where to go and where not to go. You need to know how best to protect yourself. We all need to know how to defend ourselves in this situation because it's going to happen to again. The fact still remains one person with a gun could have stopped this in it's tracks.The president would have you think guns are the enemy. Gun's aren't the enemy,nut jobs are.

Or if it so gunfree zone, 20 people throwing bottles at him and ten others storming him. Still quite a few casualties but less casualties.

Yeah right. Tough keyboard warrior. First shot you hear............ Most or all people duck and try to save their own life. You don't stand up there looking for a beer bottle or chair then charge at the shooter. Unless you are a dummy.

Projecting much? Since you are a yellow belly chickenshit you think everybody is one. Keyboard warrior... huh?
Funny thing is you have no idea who the fuck I am, what did I do what I did not do in my life. If I am/were military or not, if I am/were law enforcement or not. Shut the fuck up you whiny little bitch.

You are right I don't know you but ask me if I care. And I can see you are really a tough key board warrior.
In a situation like this....... There is a time to be tough and smart.
In a situation like this ................ It's NOT the right time to be tough and stupid.

Let's change the scenario.............. If a shooter is in front or next to me about 5 feet away...... seeing him pulling a hand gun or just carrying a long rifle. I can guarantee you....... I will tackle him and god knows what I will do next.

"Guarantee," eh? Uh-huh...........

 

[FA_Q2]

Another thread where gun control advocates run away as soon as facts are presented.

I am shocked I tell you - shocked!