We’re Finally Seeing the “Evidence” Against the Migrants Deported by Trump. It’s Unbelievable.

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

The slow pace of deportations (much less than those in Obama and Biden's administrations) will not pick up.

 

[Delldude]

The slow pace of deportations (much less than those in Obama and Biden's administrations) will not pick up.

Steady employment, job security...

 

[Rumpole]

Did you folks forget what thread you’re on?

Mashmont did a whatabout, and i refuted his whatabout. Shit happens what can I say.

 

[Rumpole]

You're incorrect. Trump was denied due process because the jury was incorrectly instructed that they MUST convict if the state fulfilled it's burden of proof. The correct wording as with the Hunter Biden is that the jury SHOULD convict. That means the jury was illegally not given the option to acquit.

Your claim is legally incorrect. The instruction that a jury "must convict" if the prosecution proves its case beyond a reasonable doubt is standard jury language across the country--including in both state and federal courts. This is not a denial of due process; it's a reflection of how the burden of proof works in a criminal trial.

The term "must convict" simply means that the jury is obligated to follow the law and return a guilty verdict if the prosecution has met its burden. It does not remove the jury’s discretion to evaluate the facts or evidence.

The idea that a jury is denied the "option to acquit" is a misunderstanding of how jury instructions and the rule of law function. Juries always retain the de facto power to acquit, even when the evidence supports guilt (a concept known as jury nullification), but courts are not required--and in most cases, are prohibited--to instruct them that they can ignore the law.

Due process was afforded. Trump’s legal team had every opportunity to challenge jury instructions during the trial--and they did not object on this point. That further undermines your claim of a due process violation.

This is not a legal controversy. It's settled procedure.

Not only that, but if your claim were true, Trump’s legal team would have raised it on appeal--and won on that point. Clearly, they did not. There’s your proof.

 

[Rumpole]

You should have specified that.

I should have, I suppose, in a perfect world, but, I never claimed perfection.

 

[Kondor3]

The Constitution does not limit due process protections only to citizens or to those who are here "with permission."

True... but there is a wide latitude as to what constitutes "due process".

The Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments use the term "person", not "citizen," and the Supreme Court has consistently interpreted this to mean everyone within U.S. borders--including undocumented immigrants.

True... but those are merely "interpretations"... and SCOTUS is now being nudged to RE-interpret to suit the national emergency.

Whether someone is here legally or not is irrelevant to this point: due process is a constitutional guarantee that applies to all persons within the jurisdiction of the United States. This has been upheld in landmark rulings such as Zadvydas v. Davis and Yick Wo v. Hopkins, both of which affirm that constitutional protections extend to all within our borders.

True... but given the sheer volume ( 20,000,000 Illegal Aliens now on US soil ) and the need to remove them and the declaration of a state of emergency along the border overrides and shortcuts are being taken... better than declaring martial law, I expect.

Your argument about "shortcut-caliber basics" and "permission" is a mischaracterization--essentially a strawman. The law does allow for expedited procedures in immigration matters, but those procedures must still conform to basic due process requirements, including notice and the opportunity to be heard.

True... so, next, the Administration will be setting up factory production-line -caliber "basics" that offer a pro forma process that satisfies the letter of the law on a hyper-accelerated fast-track while still effecting expedited removal of Illegal Aliens.

So no, due process is not contingent on prior permission to be here. It is contingent on presence within U.S. jurisdiction. That’s not an opinion--it’s settled constitutional law.

There are several ways to skin that particular cat, so... en masse deportations will continue at a greatly accelerated pace.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

SCOTUS is clear that it will not re-interpret the Constitution for most of MAGA's wishes.

 

[Delldude]

SCOTUS is clear that it will not re-interpret the Constitution for most of MAGA's wishes.

They just supported what He's doing.

 

[Rumpole]

True... but there is a wide latitude as to what constitutes "due process".

In application, there are differences, sure, but for the undocumented, 'due process', even at its minimalist application, is a light year leap over none at all, and that is the fundamental point, it's not something you can trivialize.

True... but those are merely "interpretations"... and SCOTUS is now being nudged to RE-interpret to suit the national emergency.

The precedent is clear: 'person' means everyone within U.S. borders, and that’s how the Constitution has been read by sane courts for decades. But with this court, precedent is just another item on the chopping block. The old 5-4 court might have held the line. This one? They don’t follow the law--they audition for Fox News (or vice versa). So yes, anything’s possible, including the judicial erasure of personhood, all to serve the latest 'emergency.'

True... but given the sheer volume ( 20,000,000 Illegal Aliens now on US soil ) and the need to remove them and the declaration of a state of emergency along the border overrides and shortcuts are being taken... better than declaring martial law, I expect.

So, it's the great fiction of the “sheer volume”--delivered with the breathless urgency of a man mistaking a Census estimate for a stampede.

Twenty million, you say? An imaginary army conjured not by the Census Bureau, but by the echo chamber of AM radio and right wing blogs.

But let us indulge, just for sport, this fantasy. Even if the number were real, and even if the border were under siege in the apocalyptic fashion so often whispered about in country clubs and digital bunkers, it would not dissolve the Constitution. Emergencies do not negate rights--they test them. The United States has always faced crises--wars, pandemics, depressions--and the integrity of our legal framework has endured precisely because the Bill of Rights does not come with an asterisk that reads "void in case of inconvenience."

“Shortcuts,” you say. A curious euphemism for the abandonment of due process. And when exactly did “shortcuts” to justice become acceptable under the Constitution? One imagines you would’ve made a fine functionary in any number of bygone regimes, offering justifications for indefinite detentions with the same deadpan certainty.

You say this is better than martial law. How quaint. As if the degradation of liberty, done piecemeal and in tailored suits, is somehow nobler than when done in fatigues. One poisons the republic slowly, the other quickly--the result, in either case, is a corpse.

The law applies to persons, not only patriots. That is not interpretation, that is the core of American jurisprudence. To treat due process as optional in times of stress is not the mark of a strong state, but a frightened one. And a frightened state with power is a dangerous one indeed.

True... so, next, the Administration will be setting up factory production-line -caliber "basics" that offer a pro forma process that satisfies the letter of the law on a hyper-accelerated fast-track while still effecting expedited removal of Illegal Aliens.

What you describe is not law. It is legal theater--procedural cosplay designed to mimic due process while stripping it of substance. A “factory production-line-caliber” version of justice is not justice at all--it is bureaucracy weaponized against the defenseless, all in service of political optics and nationalist indulgence.

Let’s not pretend that dressing up expedited removals in procedural drag somehow preserves the Constitution. A pro forma hearing held under duress, with no meaningful access to counsel, no time to gather evidence, and no real chance of rebuttal, is as far from due process as a kangaroo court is from a tribunal of reason.

And that phrase--satisfies the letter of the law--how marvelously cynical. It’s the rallying cry of every petty tyrant and bureaucrat who ever said, “We followed orders.” The Constitution does not demand only that we perform the ritual. It demands that we mean it. That hearings be fair. That process be real. That people--not abstractions, not statistics--be treated as human beings with rights.

But of course, the goal here isn’t legality. The goal is removal. Not policy, but purging. Expediency over equity. And the justification? That age-old excuse of empire: necessity. History is thick with governments that sacrificed justice on the altar of convenience. None of them ended well. I suspect all of them claimed it was just a shortcut.

The American experiment was not founded on efficiency. It was founded on principle. If the machinery of the state must be slowed by rights, then so be it. Better a nation that moves deliberately and justly than one that races to its own moral undoing.

There are several ways to skin that particular cat, so... en masse deportations will continue at a greatly accelerated pace.

yes--“several ways to skin that particular cat”--the language of someone who fancies brutality as cleverness and imagines euphemism can stand in for legality. But make no mistake: dressing the erosion of rights in folksy idioms doesn’t make it legal, moral, or American. It merely reveals a disturbing comfort with state overreach and a casual disregard for the very Constitution you pretend to respect.

The notion that due process can be bypassed because it slows down mass deportations is not just wrong--it is authoritarian rot. The Constitution is not a set of suggestions. It is the supreme law of the land. And the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments are crystal clear: no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. Person, not citizen. Due process, not discretionary mercy. And presence within U.S. jurisdiction, not political convenience, is the only threshold that matters.

If this government begins to redefine rights based on legal status, speed, or volume, it has ceased to be a republic of laws and has become something else entirely--something darker, something unworthy of the Founders’ vision. The moment you accept the idea that rights can be bent or blurred in the name of efficiency, you have given the state a crowbar to pry open every protection we hold dear.

So no, there are not “several ways” to violate the Constitution. There is only one way: you ignore it. And when you do, you are not solving a problem.

You are becoming one.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

"Due Process" is clear enough a term, and any questions will be handled by the Court, not any of us.

 

[Kondor3]

In application, there are differences, sure, but for the undocumented, 'due process', even at its minimalist application, is a light year leap over none at all, and that is the fundamental point, it's not something you can trivialize.

True enough.

The precedent is clear: 'person' means everyone within U.S. borders, and that’s how the Constitution has been read by sane courts for decades. But with this court, precedent is just another item on the chopping block. The old 5-4 court might have held the line. This one? They don’t follow the law--they audition for Fox News (or vice versa). So yes, anything’s possible, including the judicial erasure of personhood, all to serve the latest 'emergency.'

Difference of opinion there... I see it as using The Law to fight fire (invasion of 20,000,000 Illegals) with fire (mass deportations).

So, it's the great fiction of the “sheer volume”--delivered with the breathless urgency of a man mistaking a Census estimate for a stampede.

Difference of opinion there as well... I'll accept the US Census Bureau estimate as close-enough-for-Gubmint-work Gospel...

Twenty million, you say? An imaginary army conjured not by the Census Bureau, but by the echo chamber of AM radio and right wing blogs.

One is too many... one millions is far, far, far too many... anything up-to-and-including 20,000,000 constitute an Emergency.

And, frankly, the construction of the present state of affairs as an Emergency is at-the-heart of various points of contention.

A legitimate State of Emergency confers all KINDS of Magical Powers upon the Executive.

Leveraging that in this instance serves to remove millions of prospective and grateful future voters and negate their numbers.

Even if it's all bull$hit and entirely untrue... which it is not... the nation will now press-the-point and prove or disprove it.

Such an initiative is decades overdue... making it all-the-more painful now... but, sometimes, a Surgery DOES bring pain before relief.

But let us indulge, just for sport, this fantasy. Even if the number were real, and even if the border were under siege in the apocalyptic fashion so often whispered about in country clubs and digital bunkers, it would not dissolve the Constitution. Emergencies do not negate rights--they test them. The United States has always faced crises--wars, pandemics, depressions--and the integrity of our legal framework has endured precisely because the Bill of Rights does not come with an asterisk that reads "void in case of inconvenience."

When constitutionality and safety are at odds, safety almost always wins... just ask Abe Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt.

And that is what's happening now... you'll begin to see pro forma lip service in these matters while continuing to accelerate...

“Shortcuts,” you say. A curious euphemism for the abandonment of due process.

No. Merely trimming the fluff and fat and timelines from the process in order to cope with this volume on an expedited basis.

And when exactly did “shortcuts” to justice become acceptable under the Constitution? One imagines you would’ve made a fine functionary in any number of bygone regimes, offering justifications for indefinite detentions with the same deadpan certainty.

No indefinite detentions... merely a very brief detention followed by expulsion...

You say this is better than martial law. How quaint. As if the degradation of liberty, done piecemeal and in tailored suits, is somehow nobler than when done in fatigues. One poisons the republic slowly, the other quickly--the result, in either case, is a corpse.

Yes. Better than martial law. You are a literalist with respect to the rights of Illegal Aliens. A majority of Americans have now opted to treat those processes as sacred with respect to our own people and something to use in expelling invaders for others.

Better death by slow poison (and man-oh-man that's a hyper-partisan over-dramatization but I'll play the game) than death by 20,000,000 cuts... and if we don't "treat" those 20,000,000 cuts now there will be 40,000,000 cuts in another ten years. No thanks.

This ends now.

The law applies to persons, not only patriots. That is not interpretation, that is the core of American jurisprudence. To treat due process as optional in times of stress is not the mark of a strong state, but a frightened one. And a frightened state with power is a dangerous one indeed.

You are repeating the same thing over-and-over again and it not getting you anywhere... either here or abroad in the real world.

Those 20,000,000 have taken advantage of us, thinking us push-overs too cowardly or weak to enforce our own laws, and will bring twice their number if we allow ourselves to be stopped or slowed in "treating" these 20,000,000 cuts.

That would be national suicide and I can promise you that that is now not going to happen.

You serve-up a series of very fine arguments that have a righteous tone to them but they are impractical in dealing with this massive large-scale invasion of United States soil.

Like I said... this ends now.

What you describe is not law. It is legal theater--procedural cosplay designed to mimic due process while stripping it of substance. A “factory production-line-caliber” version of justice is not justice at all--it is bureaucracy weaponized against the defenseless, all in service of political optics and nationalist indulgence.

You keep swinging at the same curve balls and haven't scored a hit yet... the outfield has stopped watching and listening.

Let’s not pretend that dressing up expedited removals in procedural drag somehow preserves the Constitution. A pro forma hearing held under duress, with no meaningful access to counsel, no time to gather evidence, and no real chance of rebuttal, is as far from due process as a kangaroo court is from a tribunal of reason.

Have it your way... Illegal Aliens are being sent home on an expedited basis.

And that phrase--satisfies the letter of the law--how marvelously cynical.

Yes, isn't it?

It’s the rallying cry of every petty tyrant and bureaucrat who ever said, “We followed orders.” The Constitution does not demand only that we perform the ritual. It demands that we mean it. That hearings be fair. That process be real. That people--not abstractions, not statistics--be treated as human beings with rights.

Illegal Aliens have given our immigration laws short shrift... they will be given the same short shrift now... they're going.

But of course, the goal here isn’t legality. The goal is removal. Not policy, but purging.

By Jove, Guvnor... I think he's got it...

Expediency over equity. And the justification? That age-old excuse of empire: necessity. History is thick with governments that sacrificed justice on the altar of convenience. None of them ended well. I suspect all of them claimed it was just a shortcut.

Well... we're about to find out, aren't we? Buckle up.

The American experiment was not founded on efficiency. It was founded on principle. If the machinery of the state must be slowed by rights, then so be it. Better a nation that moves deliberately and justly than one that races to its own moral undoing.

For our own, nothing has changed... that the 20,000,000 -strong invasion wave is being given short shrift is the fault of those who let them in and allowed them to stay and build this into an intolerable situation... they're going... and you're not going to stop it.

yes--“several ways to skin that particular cat”--the language of someone who fancies brutality as cleverness and imagines euphemism can stand in for legality. But make no mistake: dressing the erosion of rights in folksy idioms doesn’t make it legal, moral, or American. It merely reveals a disturbing comfort with state overreach and a casual disregard for the very Constitution you pretend to respect.

Oh, my, my, my... I don't think you like my earlier feedback...

It's a good guess that you've got a dog in this particular fight, but, even if true, that's irrelevant to the current situation.

Shortcuts are going to be taken in order to deal with a human invasion wave of 20,000,000 Illegal Aliens.

There is no other way to get rid of them quickly, and getting rid of them quickly is what needs to be done, and what is happening.

The notion that due process can be bypassed because it slows down mass deportations is not just wrong--it is authoritarian rot. The Constitution is not a set of suggestions. It is the supreme law of the land. And the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments are crystal clear: no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. Person, not citizen. Due process, not discretionary mercy. And presence within U.S. jurisdiction, not political convenience, is the only threshold that matters.

This must be the fourth or fifth time you've spun this same salient point and it is not working. Your highly biased perspective on the relative merits of taking shortcuts while observing the pro forma letter of the law is not what Americans voted for in 2024.

"Elections have consequences" and the Dems got their a$$e$ kicked primarily because of their stance on Illegal Aliens

At present you lack the power to enforce your perspective.

If this government begins to redefine rights based on legal status, speed, or volume, it has ceased to be a republic of laws and has become something else entirely--something darker, something unworthy of the Founders’ vision. The moment you accept the idea that rights can be bent or blurred in the name of efficiency, you have given the state a crowbar to pry open every protection we hold dear.

Thank you for sounding the Warning Klaxon.

It's a shame that you saw fit to do that in order to oppose a necessary repelling of a long-standing prolonged invasion.

Again... fortunately... you lack the power to enforce your perspective.

The Orange Nightmare has done more to lock down the border in his first month back than your boy did in all four of his years.

In this context he is wildly popular and with good reason.

So no, there are not “several ways” to violate the Constitution. There is only one way: you ignore it. And when you do, you are not solving a problem.

Correct. There are not "several ways" to legally violate the Constitution. But there ARE a PLETHORA of ways to serve-up pro forma lip service to Constitutional processes while expediting mass expulsions from US soil, and those are now being employed.

You are becoming one.

Thank you for your opinion on the subject. I disagree. I see you as an obstructionist willing to let the 20,000,000 stay here.

Again... fortunately... you lack the power to enforce your perspective.

We have hit a wall in this conversation but thank you for the time and narrative.

 

[Delldude]

"Due Process" is clear enough a term, and any questions will be handled by the Court, not any of us.

LOL.....................legal scholar Turley said those directed to the Texas court will have an issue with establishing Habeas.... based on their legal issues.

 

[Woodznutz]

It gets old, the attacks from the right who accuse we Democrats of 'hating America' because we back Boasberg. 'You support terrorists', they keep shouting. The reply is 'no, we support due process'. Without it, we lose our republic, so it is out of LOVE for America that we back the judge, for all he is interested is that those souls get a fair hearing, so that the innocent aren't sent to some prison where their hope of freedom will be lost, probably in a hellish place for a long long time. Consider this story, which emboldens our case for 'due process'.

So it has happened that the Trump administration, that erstwhile bastion of misrule, embarked on a ruthless campaign to uproot hundreds of Venezuelan migrants scattered across this vast land. They did so with the stealth of a jackal, executing deportations without notice or the dignity of due process. These unfortunate souls were dispatched to the unforgiving confines of a prison in El Salvador--a fate as ironic as it is tragic. Now, the curtain is finally lifting on the evidence marshaled against these exiles, and it is nothing short of preposterous.

Take, for instance, the case of Jerce Reyes Barrios, a professional soccer player--yes, a player who fled the suffocating grip of dictator Nicolás Maduro in search of freedom, only to find himself ensnared by the very apparatus designed to protect him. Barrios had settled in the United States, eagerly awaiting an asylum hearing when ICE agents descended upon him like vultures. The accusation? That he was a member of the Tren de Aragua gang, a claim rooted not in hard evidence but in the flimsy fabric of xenophobic hysteria.

What, pray tell, constituted the evidence against Barrios? Two items, both laughable in their absurdity. First, a tattoo on his arm--an innocuous crown perched atop a soccer ball, allegedly emblematic of gang affiliation. The truth, as his attorney Linette Tobin clarifies, is that this tattoo is a tribute to the Real Madrid soccer team, a fact as lost on the powers that be as a whisper in a tempest. Secondly, there exists a photograph in which Barrios is gesturing with both hands--a gesture misconstrued by the ever-suspicious agents as a sign of gang allegiance. Yet, in the world of American Sign Language, this very gesture signifies “I love you,” or is often embraced as a symbol of rock 'n' roll.

Such grotesque misinterpretations seem to be a recurrent theme among those caught in this legislative nightmare. Consider another migrant, referred to as E.V., whose tattoos depict anime, flowers, and animals, yet were grotesquely rebranded as indicators of gang ties. According to his attorney, the crown adorning his skin is not a badge of criminality but a heartfelt homage to his late grandmother.

The Kafkaesque nature of this ordeal escalates as we delve into the tales of others similarly victimized. One, known as J.A.B.V., bore tattoos of a rose, a clock, and his son’s name--all benign symbols that ICE agents twisted into evidence of criminal affiliation. Despite having lived without a criminal record, he was nevertheless shipped away on the flimsiest of charges. L.G. endured a similar fate, his tattoos--one a rosary, another his partner’s name--branded as marks of gang loyalty. The absurdity reaches new heights with Anyelo Jose Sarabia, who was accused based on a tattoo of a Bible verse and a rose adorned with petals of money.

One cannot help but feel a twinge of irony: many of these individuals sought refuge from Tren de Aragua, only to be demonized as members of that very gang. A particularly poignant case involves an unnamed migrant who had applied for asylum, fleeing from the very harm he now faces, yet was unceremoniously deported while living in a New York homeless shelter with his family.

The administration seems to operate under a perverse presumption that any Venezuelan migrant bearing tattoos must be, by default, a member of Tren de Aragua, guilty until proven innocent--a condition that becomes impossible in the absence of due process. Trump’s invocation of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, under the ludicrous belief it permits the expulsion of noncitizens without judicial oversight, exposes a shocking disdain for constitutional principles. The Department of Justice, ever the willing accomplice, hastens to bypass the courts, claiming that Trump’s decisions exist in a realm beyond judicial scrutiny.

This is not the first time such absurdity has reared its head. During Trump’s initial tenure, ICE made a habit of accusing noncitizens of gang membership based on little more than inked skin. A federal judge once accused ICE agents of perjury regarding the tattoos of a DACA recipient, ultimately liberating him from unlawful detention. The lesson learned, it seems, is that when afforded the privilege of due process, these victims can challenge the flimsy fabrications that the government spins around them. In response, the authorities have concocted new legal theories, intent on preventing judicial review of their actions.

The question remains: did ICE specifically target these men based on their tattoos, or were they rounded up first, with excuses fabricated later? These details warrant scrutiny, and soon the victims’ lawyers will be entitled to interrogate the architects of this dystopian scheme. What is essential now is that judges have the opportunity to sift through the so-called evidence, allowing the scales of justice to balance before this grotesque theater evolves into a full-scale assault on the constitutional rights of all immigrants.

As we observe this unfolding drama, one cannot help but wonder where the limits of absurdity lie in this creeping authoritarianism. In the grand tapestry of American governance, this chapter stands as a cautionary tale of a nation grappling with its conscience amid a cacophony of injustice. The time has come to demand accountability, lest we descend further into a quagmire of Trumpian madness and, yes, I'll say it, it needs to be said, it needs to be shouted on rooftops across America, TYRANNY.

I've been shouting a simple message since I joined this forum short while ago, it's called 'due process'. Some said the 'gang members' got DP, but, alas, I wouldn't trust ICE nor Trump to uphold 'due process', when Trump as literally defecated all over it, for some time, now.

As the delegates finalized the U.S. Constitution, Franklin, who was 81 years old at the time, exited the hall. According to historical accounts, a woman--often identified as Elizabeth Willing Powel, a well-known Philadelphia socialite and wife of Samuel Powel--approached Franklin and asked:

"Well, Doctor, what have we got? A republic or a monarchy?"

Franklin responded: "A republic, if you can keep it."

IF WE CAN KEEP IT.

I'd like to know who on this forum understands that, without upholding the core principle of due process, we won't 'keep it', it will be lost, we will become a republic of the banana variety? Please stand up a

Oh, I suppose I could holler 'I told you so', as, it seems, my chicken little predictions are coming to pass, and, are neither chicken, nor little. So......

What will keep our republic--our democracy--from falling apart? Pray for the following:

1. A balance of power among co-equal branches of government.
   We've lost Congress--too many members have donned kneepads for Trump--leaving us to rely almost entirely on the judiciary to hold the line.
2. A vigorous, independent press.
   The free press is not the enemy of the people--it’s the watchdog that keeps power in check and truth in circulation. It's the one institution that stands between tyranny and you, the citizen, it's the first amendment, and it's the first for a reason, where the second is important, but nothing protects us from tyranny more than a vigorous & free press. Note that I didn't say 'honest' or 'unbiased' because of the three, 'honest, 'bias', and 'vigorous' only the latter is not subject (as much) to interpretation.
3. A military that honors its oath.
   When they swear to defend the Constitution, it’s not just words. It’s a commitment to the rule of law, not to any one man or party.
4. A judiciary that defends the Constitution and the law.
   Judges who stand firm, even under pressure from a hostile executive branch, are the last bulwark of democracy. They must be willing to sacrifice popularity, power, or position in defense of constitutional principle.
5. We, the people.
   A republic doesn’t sustain itself. It lives or dies by the engagement, courage, and conscience of its citizens. If we stay silent while democracy is dismantled, we become accomplices. But if we vote, speak out, protest, organize, and refuse to surrender truth to propaganda--we become the immune system of the republic. No constitution, no court, no press can save democracy if the people don’t care to.

We’re Finally Seeing the “Evidence” Against the Migrants Deported by Trump. It’s Unbelievable.

We’re Finally Seeing the “Evidence” Against the Migrants Deported by Trump. It’s Unbelievable.

The Trump admin said a soccer player had a gang tattoo. It’s a tattoo of Real Madrid’s logo.

slate.com

After the Trump administration rounded up hundreds of Venezuelan migrants around the country—without notice or court hearings—and sent them off to a prison in El Salvador, we’re finally getting details on who was deported and why. And the more we learn, the more obvious it becomes why the government is so eager to expel these individuals without any semblance of due process. It claims that these men are terrorists by virtue of their alleged membership in the Tren de Aragua gang—but evidence of this affiliation is weak to the point of nonexistence.

Consider Jerce Reyes Barrios, one victim of the deportations: a professional soccer player who had fled Venezuela after protesting against dictator Nicolás Maduro and was living peacefully in the U.S. until the government snatched him up and deported him to El Salvador. Linette Tobin, Barrios’ attorney, submitted a declaration in federal court that detailed the disturbing reasons why her client was targeted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. After entering the U.S. last year, Barrios was scheduled to have an asylum hearing in April. But on Saturday, he was arrested and held at a San Diego detention facility after ICE agents accused him of being a member of Tren de Aragua, the Venezuelan gang that President Donald Trump has been fixated on to fulfill his mass-deportation plan.

Our justice system does worse things to our own legal citizens.

War has its casualties, including collateral damage. The immigration was a wholesale invasion of the U.S. We have to treat it as such.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Our justice system does worse things to our own legal citizens.

War has its casualties, including collateral damage. The immigration was a wholesale invasion of the U.S. We have to treat it as such.

No, it was not, and no, we don't.

 

[Woodznutz]

No, it was not, and no, we don't.

But, we are.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

But, we are.

Just your hope, no proof.

 

[Woodznutz]

Just your hope, no proof.

We're in the waiting room, pacing back and forth.

 

[Rumpole]

True enough.

Difference of opinion there... I see it as using The Law to fight fire (invasion of 20,000,000 Illegals) with fire (mass deportations).


Difference of opinion there as well... I'll accept the US Census Bureau estimate as close-enough-for-Gubmint-work Gospel...

One is too many... one millions is far, far, far too many... anything up-to-and-including 20,000,000 constitute an Emergency.

And, frankly, the construction of the present state of affairs as an Emergency is at-the-heart of various points of contention.

A legitimate State of Emergency confers all KINDS of Magical Powers upon the Executive.

If it is an emergency, which will be challenged.

Leveraging that in this instance serves to remove millions of prospective and grateful future voters and negate their numbers.

Even if it's all bull$hit and entirely untrue... which it is not... the nation will now press-the-point and prove or disprove it.

Such an initiative is decades overdue... making it all-the-more painful now... but, sometimes, a Surgery DOES bring pain before relief.

When constitutionality and safety are at odds, safety almost always wins... just ask Abe Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt.

If that were true, and it isn't, undocs, per capita, commit far fewer crimes than US Citizens. I can get the data, if you want.

And that is what's happening now... you'll begin to see pro forma lip service in these matters while continuing to accelerate...

No. Merely trimming the fluff and fat and timelines from the process in order to cope with this volume on an expedited basis.

Every case where due process is perceived not to be implemented, it will be challenged.

No indefinite detentions... merely a very brief detention followed by expulsion...

We had a border bill that gave more resources, but Trump instructed Speaker Johnson to shelve the bill because Trump needed the border problem as a campaign issue.

Yes. Better than martial law. You are a literalist with respect to the rights of Illegal Aliens.

Weren't Republicans and conservatives, 'literalists'? Oh, I see only when it fits your narrative, and when it doesn't, out the window she goes, eh?

A majority of Americans have now opted to treat those processes as sacred with respect to our own people and something to use in expelling invaders for others.

Better death by slow poison (and man-oh-man that's a hyper-partisan over-dramatization but I'll play the game) than death by 20,000,000 cuts... and if we don't "treat" those 20,000,000 cuts now there will be 40,000,000 cuts in another ten years. No thanks.

Your POV really, is xenophobia. I'm not so afflicted, I like brown people (and yellow, excuse the stereo vision)

This ends now.

You are repeating the same thing over-and-over again and it not getting you anywhere... either here or abroad in the real world.

Sorry, it's reality that's never gonna let Trump's agenda prevail.

Those 20,000,000 have taken advantage of us,

Half of them pay taxes, and won't be allowed to collect SS when the times comes. Also, corps pay them less because they know 'migra' is just a phone call away. The truth is, we take advantage of them.

thinking us push-overs too cowardly or weak to enforce our own laws, and will bring twice their number if we allow ourselves to be stopped or slowed in "treating" these 20,000,000 cuts.

That would be national suicide and I can promise you that that is now not going to happen.

That's nonsense, we actually need their labor. There is a labor shortage, your mentality is the stuff of right wing propaganda

You serve-up a series of very fine arguments that have a righteous tone to them but they are impractical in dealing with this massive large-scale invasion of United States soil.

Your term 'invasion' is right wing propaganda and I regret to inform you that what is impractical is Trump's immigration policy.

Like I said... this ends now.

You keep swinging at the same curve balls and haven't scored a hit yet... the outfield has stopped watching and listening.

I'll file that in the wishful thinking file. We've scored many hits, of the 60 or so lawsuits filed by the left, Trump has won only about 5 of them, or so.

Have it your way... Illegal Aliens are being sent home on an expedited basis.

Actually, they aren't. It's as slow as it has ever been. I'm not against deportations, just as long as everyone gets due process. Hell, Biden and Obama deported quite a number. I think it was more than Bush and Trump.

Yes, isn't it?

Illegal Aliens have given our immigration laws short shrift... they will be given the same short shrift now... they're going.


By Jove, Guvnor... I think he's got it...

Well... we're about to find out, aren't we? Buckle up.

For our own, nothing has changed... that the 20,000,000 -strong invasion wave is being given short shrift is the fault of those who let them in and allowed them to stay and build this into an intolerable situation... they're going... and you're not going to stop it.

Oh, my, my, my... I don't think you like my earlier feedback...

It's a good guess that you've got a dog in this particular fight, but, even if true, that's irrelevant to the current situation.

No dog, just the constitution.

Shortcuts are going to be taken in order to deal with a human invasion wave of 20,000,000 Illegal Aliens.

See below

There is no other way to get rid of them quickly, and getting rid of them quickly is what needs to be done, and what is happening.

Sorry, there will be no 'quickly'. Homan, recently complained that he needs funding, and the Senate can't get it's act together with the budget. These are but a few of the things you forgot to factor in.

This must be the fourth or fifth time you've spun this same salient point and it is not working.

And you keep saying that it isn't working. Sorry, what isn't working is the Trump agenda.

Your highly biased perspective on the relative merits of taking shortcuts while observing the pro forma letter of the law is not what Americans voted for in 2024.

Well, 'biased' is relative, isn't it? The only reason Trump won was that 1. Harris carried biden's baggage on inflation (of which both Trump & Biden were equally responsible, but that's another debate) and 2. Biden's baggage handling the Israel Palestine conflict, and even then, only 1.5% more voted for Him over her, and she only had just over 3 months to campaign.)

"Elections have consequences" and the Dems got their a$$e$ kicked primarily because of their stance on Illegal Aliens

Trump garnered only 1.5% more votes, that's not 'ass kicking'. Sorry. You can claim the win in the EC, but the only way to value the actual weight of support is to count the votes.

At present you lack the power to enforce your perspective.

No, but the ACLU, Democracy Docket, and a few other civil rights orgs are 'enforcing my perspective' just fine. We are winning most of the time, by far.

Thank you for sounding the Warning Klaxon.

It's a shame that you saw fit to do that in order to oppose a necessary repelling of a long-standing prolonged invasion.

Again, RW perspective I do not share.

Again... fortunately... you lack the power to enforce your perspective.

See above

The Orange Nightmare has done more to lock down the border in his first month back than your boy did in all four of his years.

Cruelty and inhumane treatment do not produce valid statistics. Let's do a 'Reductio Ad Absurdum' to prove this point. IF you want the stat to go to zero, just shoot all illegals who cross. See? you could do that but the stat wouldn't be valid because it's cruel, immoral, illegal. Of course it's absurd, as absurd as Claiming Trump's policy is 'better'. There is a labor shortage, we need more, not less, immigrants so what is needed is a path to legal residency so they can work without fear of immigration.

In this context he is wildly popular and with good reason.

More people do not like Trump than like him. His numbers are shrinking.

Correct. There are not "several ways" to legally violate the Constitution. But there ARE a PLETHORA of ways to serve-up pro forma lip service to Constitutional processes while expediting mass expulsions from US soil, and those are now being employed.

Thank you for your opinion on the subject. I disagree. I see you as an obstructionist willing to let the 20,000,000 stay here.

Again... fortunately... you lack the power to enforce your perspective.

We have hit a wall in this conversation but thank you for the time and narrative.

Not just yet.,,

Well now, isn't this just adorable--a plan to deport 20 million people, shortcut due process, skip past the Constitution like it’s a traffic cone, and pretend it’ll all run smoother than a NASCAR pit stop. What’s next--handing out “Go Directly to Mexico” cards like it's Monopoly?

Let’s start with a little inconvenient fact--the Supreme Court just ruled that even under Trump, immigration authorities must provide due process. Yeah, must--not might, not if it's convenient, not if the mood strikes. So whatever fantasy is being cooked up about assembly-line deportations? Not gonna happen. Not under this Constitution.

See, when you say “shortcut due process,” you might as well say “shortcut reality.” Because every time the process gets shaved down, civil rights groups will sue--ACLU, Democracy Docket, you name it. Each case will crawl its way to the courts like a snail on a legal mission. That’s the beauty--and the burden--of a country built on laws, not slogans.

And as for this 20 million figure--it’s a ghost story. A big scary number that doesn’t come from the Census Bureau but from the talk radio ministry of fear. But even if it were real--and we’ll play that game--how do you plan to deport them all when we have a labor shortage? Ever think about that? Farms, kitchens, warehouses, and eldercare centers don’t run on vibes. They run on labor. And guess who’s doing it?

Now let’s take a stroll through history--because no conservative president, not Reagan, not Bush, not even Trump in round one, managed to deport more than a fraction of this number. And that’s not because they were soft--it’s because this isn’t a dictatorship. It’s a democracy. And democracies don’t do mass expulsions without due process, legal review, court delays, and yes, cameras rolling while kids cry because their parents were taken. That’s not just bad law--it’s bad optics, and the media knows a ratings bonanza when they see one.

You want a PR nightmare? Try deporting a family where it turns out the paperwork was wrong. Try separating a U.S. citizen kid from an undocumented parent on live TV. It’s not just cruel--it’s political malpractice. That’s why it failed before, and why it’ll fail again. Because the Constitution, the courts, and yes, public opinion--they all matter.

And here’s the punchline: this isn’t about law and order. It’s about theater. It’s about making noise. Because the reality is, you’re not going to move 20 million people. You’re not even going to move two. Not without unleashing a wave of legal chaos, economic disruption, and international condemnation that would make 2018 look like a warm-up act. And remember what happened then? Democrats took the House.

So yeah, go ahead, sell the fantasy. But in the real world? We’ve got laws, we’ve got lawyers, and we’ve got labor markets that tell a different story. You can dress up expedited removals in all the procedural cosplay you want. But due process isn’t a costume--it’s a cornerstone.

And that’s not just a legal technicality. That’s what makes this place America. Strip that away, and, one more time I'll repeat it: you’re not solving a problem. You’re becoming one.

 

[Kondor3]

Sorry, there will be no 'quickly'. Homan, recently complained that he needs funding, and the Senate can't get it's act together with the budget. These are but a few of the things you forgot to factor in.

Lack of funding is, indeed, a problem, which is why...

• The military is now actively engaged in this under the guise of defending the Homeland utilizing DoD funding
• IRS data is now being used to locate many Illegal Aliens with deportation orders who have not yet left
• Fines and property seizures are being implemented against those with deportation orders who have not yet left
• Employers of Illegal Aliens are being raided and prosecuted now on a broad and widening basis
• Sanctuary jurisdictions have begun reversing themselves and begun cooperating with Federal law enforcement
• Bounties and reporting systems are being publicly discussed in several states
• More funding to find and remove Illegals is being allocated in future budget-spending bills; likely to pass soon

And you keep saying that it isn't working. Sorry, what isn't working is the Trump agenda.

Given the hugely successful lock-down of the Southern Border and near-elimination of crossings? Hmmmmm....

Well, 'biased' is relative, isn't it? The only reason Trump won was that 1. Harris carried biden's baggage on inflation (of which both Trump & Biden were equally responsible, but that's another debate) and 2. Biden's baggage handling the Israel Palestine conflict, and even then, only 1.5% more voted for Him over her, and she only had just over 3 months to campaign.)

Trump garnered only 1.5% more votes, that's not 'ass kicking'. Sorry. You can claim the win in the EC, but the only way to value the actual weight of support is to count the votes.

The Dems lost largely because their policies had allowed 20,000,000 Illegal Aliens into the country on their watch.

There were other reasons as well...with the single most important being the economy, but immigration ran a fairly close second.

Those things, coupled with Biden Family corruption, the cover-up of Biden's mental degeneration, the anointing rather than electing of a replacement candidate, the failure to hold an Open Convention, the lack of vision, the lack of messaging, the lack of plans to remedy some of the worst complaints of the American Voter, their metamorphosis into a Party of the Elites rather than the Party of the Working Man, etc., all contributed to some degree or another, but Illegal Immigration factored hugely into it.

No, but the ACLU, Democracy Docket, and a few other civil rights orgs are 'enforcing my perspective' just fine. We are winning most of the time, by far.

Wake me up when you've halted these mass deportations...

Cruelty and inhumane treatment do not produce valid statistics. Let's do a 'Reductio Ad Absurdum' to prove this point. IF you want the stat to go to zero, just shoot all illegals who cross. See? you could do that but the stat wouldn't be valid because it's cruel, immoral, illegal. Of course it's absurd, as absurd as Claiming Trump's policy is 'better'. There is a labor shortage, we need more, not less, immigrants so what is needed is a path to legal residency so they can work without fear of immigration.

If there is a Labor Shortage then the situation will be aggravated for a while as Illegal Aliens continue to be deported in vast numbers until the true nature of The Shortage reveals itself. Once revealed, we can move to begin addressing it. This faux Sword of Damocles will not be allowed to slow-down nor halt the mass deportation of those Illegal Aliens. No Sale.

Let’s start with a little inconvenient fact--the Supreme Court just ruled that even under Trump, immigration authorities must provide due process. Yeah, must--not might, not if it's convenient, not if the mood strikes. So whatever fantasy is being cooked up about assembly-line deportations? Not gonna happen. Not under this Constitution.

That's where the pro forma shortcuts come in... accelerating lip-service-caliber Due Process from ten years to ten days.

Don't believe me? Keep an eye out for such "adaptations" in the coming weeks which are designed to withstand court scrutiny.

See, when you say “shortcut due process,” you might as well say “shortcut reality.” Because every time the process gets shaved down, civil rights groups will sue--ACLU, Democracy Docket, you name it. Each case will crawl its way to the courts like a snail on a legal mission. That’s the beauty--and the burden--of a country built on laws, not slogans.

Civil Rights groups can sue all they like, but once the first-such challenge is swatted aside the rest won't have any traction, and even that first case will be fast-walked through the Appellate and Supreme Courts as a matter of National Existential Emergency.

And as for this 20 million figure--it’s a ghost story. A big scary number that doesn’t come from the Census Bureau but from the talk radio ministry of fear. But even if it were real--and we’ll play that game--how do you plan to deport them all when we have a labor shortage? Ever think about that? Farms, kitchens, warehouses, and eldercare centers don’t run on vibes. They run on labor. And guess who’s doing it?

The Labor Shortage canard again... No Sale... they're going... if we need more warm bodies later, we'll bring them in, under highly controlled circumstances, on OUR terms, not THEIRS.

Now let’s take a stroll through history--because no conservative president, not Reagan, not Bush, not even Trump in round one, managed to deport more than a fraction of this number. And that’s not because they were soft--it’s because this isn’t a dictatorship. It’s a democracy. And democracies don’t do mass expulsions without due process, legal review, court delays, and yes, cameras rolling while kids cry because their parents were taken. That’s not just bad law--it’s bad optics, and the media knows a ratings bonanza when they see one.

You haven't been paying attention to the Declaration of Emergency and the extensive and active use of the US Military to actually make it happen this time.

You want a PR nightmare? Try deporting a family where it turns out the paperwork was wrong. Try separating a U.S. citizen kid from an undocumented parent on live TV. It’s not just cruel--it’s political malpractice. That’s why it failed before, and why it’ll fail again. Because the Constitution, the courts, and yes, public opinion--they all matter.

And the PR nightmare will be spun and pitched as "They are the ones subjecting their people to such enforcement procedures. Had they not disrespected us and violated our laws and crossed onto US soil without our express prior consent, they would not be in this position. This is all on them." - believe it - it will be spun this way - and they will succeed with that pitch.

And here’s the punchline: this isn’t about law and order. It’s about theater. It’s about making noise. Because the reality is, you’re not going to move 20 million people. You’re not even going to move two. Not without unleashing a wave of legal chaos, economic disruption, and international condemnation that would make 2018 look like a warm-up act. And remember what happened then? Democrats took the House.

The Trump Administration has made enormous progress along these lines in a mere 80-90 First Days in office and there is a very, very long time to go before the mid-terms. If the Administration shows sufficient progress on this by that time the Dems will break the mid-term mold and lose again after all.

So yeah, go ahead, sell the fantasy. But in the real world? We’ve got laws, we’ve got lawyers, and we’ve got labor markets that tell a different story. You can dress up expedited removals in all the procedural cosplay you want. But due process isn’t a costume--it’s a cornerstone.

Good luck, pinning your hopes to that, as mass deportations and inter-agency data sharing continue and accelerate, and as promised results continue to unfold. You're behind the eight-ball at the moment and hoping that it's not a permanent state.

And that’s not just a legal technicality. That’s what makes this place America. Strip that away, and, one more time I'll repeat it: you’re not solving a problem. You’re becoming one.

We can worry about all that once the Illegals are gone.

 

[Muhammed]

Due Process is everyone's right. Everyone.

Garcia got his due process.