Who is opposed to a border fence and why?

[The Derp]

False. Under the purple lipped jug head, who told the BP to stand down, they came across the border like flies.

No, they didn't. We added 10,000 more border patrol agents the last few years, yet illegal border crossing apprehensions dropped throughout Obama's term. So we hired all these people to patrol the border (and lowering the standards for those agents), but by doubling the number of agents, apprehensions declined. So that means either Mexicans developed invisibility cloaks, or not as many people are crossing over the border.

The Border Patrol is the most corrupt federal law enforcement agency there is. The reason is because it had to dramatically lower its standards in order to fill its ranks.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

Setting aside the disingenuous arguments about its cost and effectiveness, why are you opposed to a physical barrier to illegal immigration across our southern border? Please spare me the histrionics and tell me why we should not maintain our territorial integrity (like every other country in the world).

I'm not opposed to a wall in populated areas, but the wall that some talk about across the entire southern border is a feel good measure that won't do squat. People will go over it, under it, around it, up the coast, etc.

Until we address the reason WHY illegals come here by...

#1 Ending birthright citizenship for those in the country illegally,

#2 Hammer employers (both companies and individuals that hire "under the table") for hiring illegals and making it much more expensive by far then employing legal residents,

#3 Restrict access to free education (K-12) and instate rates (post-secondary) [hell make schools mandatory reporters].

#4 Restrict access to social programs (housing assistance, food stamps, etc.),

#5 Restrict medical treatment to life saving emergency treatment, and then keep them in custody for deportation.

#6 And yes, to accomplish #2 we need a solid guest worker program where bonds are paid and employers become responsible for the workers (I'm thinking like a Temp Agency for migrant workers that brings them in and takes them home as part of the mandate).


We won't make anything but headlines and photo-ops for the politicians.




>>>>>

#6 stiffer penalties on those here illegally. Long times in a tent city before deportation

 

[The Derp]

Businesses are the main culprit. And the free shit we as a society give them.

Well, keep in mind that many of those crossing the border aren't Mexicans. They're central Americans who are fleeing turmoil in their home countries, and have the right to seek asylum because of that. The few who are crossing the border illegally largely fall into that camp. The overwhelming majority of illegal immigrants are people who came here legally, but overstayed their visas. A wall ain't gonna stop that. Cutting assistance to refugees (which those asylum seekers are) isn't going to change that. What's going to change it is putting the honus on business to either stop bringing into the country via the visas or to hold business more accountable for the people it brings here.

 

[MarcATL]

Setting aside the disingenuous arguments about its cost and effectiveness, why are you opposed to a physical barrier to illegal immigration across our southern border? Please spare me the histrionics and tell me why we should not maintain our territorial integrity (like every other country in the world).

You're a fiscal conservative right?

How about starting with the cost of the so-called fence.

 

[The Derp]

#1 Ending birthright citizenship for those in the country illegally,

Not the reason most illegal immigrants come here, so you're solving for a problem that doesn't exist.

#2 Hammer employers (both companies and individuals that hire "under the table") for hiring illegals and making it much more expensive by far then employing legal residents,

Again, that's not the problem. It's a symptom of the problem, but not the cause. The employers hiring illegal immigrants aren't the problem. The problem is employers import foreign workers (who will work for cheap and in worse conditions) and then aren't held accountable when the worker they imported doesn't leave.

#3 Restrict access to free education (K-12) and instate rates (post-secondary) [hell make schools mandatory reporters].

Well that makes little sense. Children are victims. They should be taken care of, even if they come here illegally because it's the humane thing to do. Also, most of those children are refugees who come from turmoil-torn countries in Central America. They are allowed to seek asylum and voluntarily turn themselves in to Border Patrol Agents because that's part of the process to seek asylum.

#4 Restrict access to social programs (housing assistance, food stamps, etc.),

Why? What good does that serve?

5 Restrict medical treatment to life saving emergency treatment, and then keep them in custody for deportation.

Again, the people you are talking about are largely asylum seekers fleeing conflict-torn Central American countries who turn themselves in when they cross the border in order to seek asylum. So they're already in custody as their case winds through Immigration Court. While in custody, we should give them medical treatment...because that's what being a good host entails.

#6 And yes, to accomplish #2 we need a solid guest worker program where bonds are paid and employers become responsible for the workers (I'm thinking like a Temp Agency for migrant workers that brings them in and takes them home as part of the mandate).

I would agree to that. I think that's a reasonable solution.

#6 stiffer penalties on those here illegally. Long times in a tent city before deportation

That doesn't accomplish anything. Why are you so dead-set on making these people suffer? Surely, we can detain them more humanely than that. We would expect other nations to humanely detain our citizens, so why isn't that a two-way street?

 

[frigidweirdo]

Setting aside the disingenuous arguments about its cost and effectiveness, why are you opposed to a physical barrier to illegal immigration across our southern border? Please spare me the histrionics and tell me why we should not maintain our territorial integrity (like every other country in the world).

There's a big difference between a physical barrier, which exists already, and what Trump is proposing

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

#1 Ending birthright citizenship for those in the country illegally,

Not the reason most illegal immigrants come here, so you're solving for a problem that doesn't exist.

#2 Hammer employers (both companies and individuals that hire "under the table") for hiring illegals and making it much more expensive by far then employing legal residents,

Again, that's not the problem. It's a symptom of the problem, but not the cause. The employers hiring illegal immigrants aren't the problem. The problem is employers import foreign workers (who will work for cheap and in worse conditions) and then aren't held accountable when the worker they imported doesn't leave.

#3 Restrict access to free education (K-12) and instate rates (post-secondary) [hell make schools mandatory reporters].

Well that makes little sense. Children are victims. They should be taken care of, even if they come here illegally because it's the humane thing to do. Also, most of those children are refugees who come from turmoil-torn countries in Central America. They are allowed to seek asylum and voluntarily turn themselves in to Border Patrol Agents because that's part of the process to seek asylum.

#4 Restrict access to social programs (housing assistance, food stamps, etc.),

Why? What good does that serve?

5 Restrict medical treatment to life saving emergency treatment, and then keep them in custody for deportation.

Again, the people you are talking about are largely asylum seekers fleeing conflict-torn Central American countries who turn themselves in when they cross the border in order to seek asylum. So they're already in custody as their case winds through Immigration Court. While in custody, we should give them medical treatment...because that's what being a good host entails.

#6 And yes, to accomplish #2 we need a solid guest worker program where bonds are paid and employers become responsible for the workers (I'm thinking like a Temp Agency for migrant workers that brings them in and takes them home as part of the mandate).

I would agree to that. I think that's a reasonable solution.

#6 stiffer penalties on those here illegally. Long times in a tent city before deportation

That doesn't accomplish anything. Why are you so dead-set on making these people suffer? Surely, we can detain them more humanely than that. We would expect other nations to humanely detain our citizens, so why isn't that a two-way street?

The USA has tent cities for criminals - for example Arizona.

Why should illegals get any different than citizens?

Like all incarceration it is a deterrent against committing future crimes.


Items 1 through 5 were not mine.

Just number 6

 

[The Derp]

The USA has tent cities for criminals - for example Arizona.

And they're a disgusting stain on this country and should be abolished completely. We are judged by how we treat our prisoners. And we treat them like shit. So we are shit because of that. Last time I checked, AZ still had tons of violent crime, drugs, and illegal immigrants.

Why should illegals get any different than citizens?

Nobody should get that, first off. Secondly, doing that does nothing to prevent people from overstaying their visas. A "tent city" isn't going to magically make Jose "self-deport" after he overstays his visa. All it does is add a pointless level of cruelty to it. What do you think you accomplish by sticking anyone (let alone illegal immigrants) in "tent cities"? It hasn't stopped illegal immigrants at all. It hasn't stopped violent crime. It hasn't stopped recidivism. It's just cruelty and completely pointless. What do those "tent cities" prove, other than we don't know what the fuck to do about incarceration? Wouldn't the fact that "tent cities" even exist undermine the intent behind them? If the goal of a "tent city" is to prevent future crimes, it sure as shit isn't working.

Like all incarceration it is a deterrent against committing future crimes.

OK, but we've been incarcerating people since the founding of the country and crime still exists. Recidivism is high too. So even putting someone in a "tent city" doesn't make them less likely to end up in jail again. So it's not a deterrent for anything. It's just cruelty.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

The USA has tent cities for criminals - for example Arizona.

And they're a disgusting stain on this country and should be abolished completely. We are judged by how we treat our prisoners. And we treat them like shit. So we are shit because of that.

Why should illegals get any different than citizens?

Nobody should get that, first off. Secondly, doing that does nothing to prevent people from overstaying their visas. A "tent city" isn't going to magically make Jose "self-deport" after he overstays his visa. All it does is add a pointless level of cruelty to it. What do you think you accomplish by sticking anyone (let alone illegal immigrants) in "tent cities"? It hasn't stopped illegal immigrants at all. It hasn't stopped violent crime. It hasn't stopped recidivism. It's just cruelty and completely pointless. What do those "tent cities" prove, other than we don't know what the fuck to do about incarceration? Wouldn't the fact that "tent cities" even exist undermine the intent behind them? If the goal of a "tent city" is to prevent future crimes, it sure as shit isn't working.

Like all incarceration it is a deterrent against committing future crimes.

OK, but we've been incarcerating people since the founding of the country and crime still exists. Recidivism is high too. So even putting someone in a "tent city" doesn't make them less likely to end up in jail again. So it's not a deterrent for anything. It's just cruelty.

You are entitled to your opinions.

 

[The Derp]

You are entitled to your opinions.

I sure am. I just don't see the point in being cruel to people. It's not going to deter future lawbreakers, obviously, so what is the real motivation behind it? That, I'm not so sure. I refuse to accept that it's cruelty for cruelty's sake. Is it to prove something? If so, what? Obviously it hasn't done anything to prevent crime or recidivism. So if it doesn't work, why are we still doing it??

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

You are entitled to your opinions.

I sure am. I just don't see the point in being cruel to people. It's not going to deter future lawbreakers, obviously, so what is the real motivation behind it? That, I'm not so sure. I refuse to accept that it's cruelty for cruelty's sake. Is it to prove something? If so, what? Obviously it hasn't done anything to prevent crime or recidivism. So if it doesn't work, why are we still doing it??

So the penalties are not deterrents for crime?


Speeding tickets make no difference?

Security cameras make no difference?

People behave the same with and without penalties?


So if the last time I snuck across the border I had to do a year in a tent city before being deported that would have no affect on my plans to do it gain?

Really?

 

[BlindBoo]

Fence? I don't want no stinkin fence. I want a wall. A big beautiful wall. And tall. I want a 30 foot tall wall. Not just that but a smart wall too. Smart enough to know when those drug smuggling criminal Mexicans come sneaking up with a 31 foot ladder it will grow another foot or two. But mostly I want a wall we don't have to pay for.

Fence indeed.

 

[The Derp]

So the penalties are not deterrents for crime?

Obviously not, since those crimes continue to happen. Like I said, doesn't the fact that "tent cities" are continually full undermine the assumed point of their effectiveness? I just want to get you to think differently about it, because the current solutions don't seem to be working that well.

Speeding tickets make no difference?

Obviously not, since people still speed. Some people speed so much they have tons of warrants out for them because of all the unpaid speeding tickets they get.

Security cameras make no difference?

They can, sure. But that's not what we're talking about. And it's not a penalty, like a jail sentence. It's just a piece of surveillance equipment.

People behave the same with and without penalties?

People are gonna commit crimes regardless. It's just gonna happen. What we need to figure out as a society is what is the best way to rehabilitate someone so they don't commit future crimes. So far, there's no real evidence that our current penalties are any more effective than more humane solutions. Like I said, we are judged by how we treat our prisoners. And we treat them like shit. So what does that say about us?

So if the last time I snuck across the border I had to do a year in a tent city before being deported that would have no affect on my plans to do it gain?

First of all, the bulk of illegal immigrants didn't sneak into this country. They were brought here by people like Trump who hate American workers. They hate American workers so much, they literally import labor that they don't have to treat or pay as they would a citizen. A "tent city" solves that, how? Seems to me the people we should be cruel towards are people like Trump who bring these folks in, then feign ignorance once their visas expire. If you're gonna be cruel to anyone, be cruel to those people because they created and perpetuated the problem you want to solve by being cruel to someone who possibly came to this country seeking asylum from their own conflict-torn lands. We should be welcoming those people here, not trying to kick them out. They had the desire, drive, ingenuity, and determination to get the hell out of their bad situations, and come to the land of opportunity. Why would you want to be cruel to them? I don't get it. It seems like posturing to me.

 

[The Derp]

Fence? I don't want no stinkin fence. I want a wall. A big beautiful wall. And tall. I want a 30 foot tall wall. Not just that but a smart wall too. Smart enough to know when those drug smuggling criminal Mexicans come sneaking up with a 31 foot ladder it will grow another foot or two. But mostly I want a wall we don't have to pay for. Fence indeed.

I think Trump thinks this is the kind of wall that will stop illegal immigrants...even though it didn't even work for Westeros. And the illegal immigrants (White Walkers) are probably just going to walk around that shit anyway once they freeze the water by Eastwatch:

 

[Darkwind]

Setting aside the disingenuous arguments about its cost and effectiveness, why are you opposed to a physical barrier to illegal immigration across our southern border? Please spare me the histrionics and tell me why we should not maintain our territorial integrity (like every other country in the world).

Because the bulk of illegal immigrants are people who overstayed their visas. Visas like the ones Trump uses to import foreign workers to work at his domestic resorts. A wall won't stop that. It's just a waste of time, money, and resources. Illegal border crossing apprehensions have dropped to a 17-year low, even as we've added 10,000 more Border Patrol Agents over the last few years.

How about instead of spending $20B to build a stupid wall, we take that $20B and instead spend it on health care for people who actually need it?

Pretty simple so you should have managed to get it.

20 billion for the wall is a one time cost. The maintenance of that wall is likely to be less than a billion a year.

Healthcare, when run by the government, will start at 20 billion the first year and before that first year is over, will cost overrun by 3 billion. The second year, that 20 billion is now 80 billion and that year, will cost overrun by 10 billion. The third year, that 20 billion will be 400 billion and will cost overrun in that year by 100 billion. Etc, etc., so we are now up to a half trillion dollars for health care in less than five years and in that same five years, we will have spent 25 billion on the wall.

 

[The Derp]

20 billion for the wall is a one time cost. The maintenance of that wall is likely to be less than a billion a year.

I've worked with enough contractors in my life to know that's a load of bullshit.

And a wall isn't going to stop Trump from importing foreign workers to work at his domestic resorts, then overstay their visas once they expire. A wall solves that problem, how? Because most illegal immigrants came here on visas like the ones Trump uses because he hates American workers. He hates American worker wages. He hates American worker workplace standards. He puts so little value on labor, he literally imports people so he doesn't have to adhere to any kind of standards American workers are accustomed to.

Healthcare, when run by the government, will start at 20 billion the first year and before that first year is over, will cost overrun by 3 billion.

No one is proposing government-run health care. All that is being proposed is government-run health insurance. How your doctor gets paid has no bearing on the treatment your doctor gives you. Because that transaction happens after you've already received treatment, not before. Think about the function an insurance company actually plays in health care. They administrate payment from the premium pool to your provider. A premium pool you've already paid into. So these guys shuffle money from one place to another, take as much as 20% for themselves, and that's better than a single payer, how? A single payer means all providers are reimbursed at the same rate, which levels the playing field and forces providers to compete for your care. And how do they do that? By improving outcomes and reducing costs. Isn't that what you want? Free market competition in health care?

 

[BlindBoo]

Fence? I don't want no stinkin fence. I want a wall. A big beautiful wall. And tall. I want a 30 foot tall wall. Not just that but a smart wall too. Smart enough to know when those drug smuggling criminal Mexicans come sneaking up with a 31 foot ladder it will grow another foot or two. But mostly I want a wall we don't have to pay for. Fence indeed.

I think Trump thinks this is the kind of wall that will stop illegal immigrants...even though it didn't even work for Westeros. And the illegal immigrants (White Walkers) are probably just going to walk around that shit anyway once they freeze the water by Eastwatch:

That's why I want a smart mote before and after the wall.

 

[Darkwind]

20 billion for the wall is a one time cost. The maintenance of that wall is likely to be less than a billion a year.

I've worked with enough contractors in my life to know that's a load of bullshit.

And a wall isn't going to stop Trump from importing foreign workers to work at his domestic resorts, then overstay their visas once they expire. A wall solves that problem, how? Because most illegal immigrants came here on visas like the ones Trump uses because he hates American workers. He hates American worker wages. He hates American worker workplace standards. He puts so little value on labor, he literally imports people so he doesn't have to adhere to any kind of standards American workers are accustomed to.

Healthcare, when run by the government, will start at 20 billion the first year and before that first year is over, will cost overrun by 3 billion.

No one is proposing government-run health care. All that is being proposed is government-run health insurance. How your doctor gets paid has no bearing on the treatment your doctor gives you. Because that transaction happens after you've already received treatment, not before. Think about the function an insurance company actually plays in health care. They administrate payment from the premium pool to your provider. A premium pool you've already paid into. So these guys shuffle money from one place to another, take as much as 20% for themselves, and that's better than a single payer, how? A single payer means all providers are reimbursed at the same rate, which levels the playing field and forces providers to compete for your care. And how do they do that? By improving outcomes and reducing costs. Isn't that what you want? Free market competition in health care?

I've never seen a government program that did not balloon out of control while at the same time, overreaching its authority.

I too smell bullshit and it's not coming from My direction.

There is NO CREDIBLE reason for not building the wall. /thread

 

[Vandalshandle]

The myth that Illegal immigrants pose an economic hardship on America, is just that. They produce goods and services, and pay taxes. Most work and keep a low profile, and avoid confrontations with the law.

But I understand how Trump stirred up his xenophobic base, and I know that they will treat illegals the same way the south treated blacks for 200 years...with hate. So, I will keep doing what I have been doing for years, which is to volunteer about one day every 2 months delivering water, clothing, and medicine to the aliens crossing the desert, who are dying from exposure. Of course, it would be illegal to transport them, so we don't, and if they are ready to give up, we will call BP to take them in. Mostly, we just leave the stuff on trails that they use. We don't think that the misdemeanor of being an illegal immigrant deserves the death penalty.

 

[The Derp]

I've never seen a government program that did not balloon out of control while at the same time, overreaching its authority.

Even Medicare? Seems to me that people universally love Medicare. That's all we're talking about; who administers payment from the risk pool to the provider? How do multiple, private insurers do that administration better than Medicare? Medicare operates with about 1% of its entire budget for administration. Aetna, by contrast, allocates 17% of its entire budget to administration. So which one ballooned? The 1% Medicare allocates to administration, or the 17% Aetna does? Be honest now.

There is NO CREDIBLE reason for not building the wall. /thread

There are plenty of reasons, and I gave you the biggest one; most illegal immigrants didn't sneak across the border in the middle of the night, they came on boats and planes using visas people like Trump got for them. Building a wall solves that problem, how?