Why do people hate Liberals?

[Foxfyre]

Sorry but the Heritage Foundation is not a good source for information about Liberals and Progressives.

They are a Conservative think tank.

maybe, and Brookins...... Rand etc?

I always thought the best way of handle that kind of thing ( source wars) was to find 'facts' elsewhere to offer in dispute ...

Brookings is as left leaning as Heritage is right.

Good facts and data are good facts and data regardless of who puts them out, however, and I have not found Brookings or Heritage to ever intentionally skew, alter, or manipulate data or facts to make a particular ideological argument. Each might interpret the data to mean different things, but for both, it is what it is. And both will publish good and reasoned opposing arguments for a particular concept. And both will criticize actions of individuals or political parties regardless of the labels on them. Both are run and populated with humans capable of misjudgment and error as all humans are. But both do good work and both are going to get it as right as anybody will.

A good idea and good work is a good idea or good work regardless of who does it.

And as a conservative/classical liberal/libertarian I prefer to go to those who are doing the research and providing verifiable information--Heritage for instance always gives its sources for what it publishes. CATO, Brookings, and Heritage--that covers ALL the bases--are doing research and analysis that almost nobody else is doing.

 

[Foxfyre]

Sorry but the Heritage Foundation is not a good source for information about Liberals and Progressives.

They are a Conservative think tank.

maybe, and Brookins...... Rand etc?

I always thought the best way of handle that kind of thing ( source wars) was to find 'facts' elsewhere to offer in dispute ...

But we agree on this. If I use ANY source, I always check to see what its own sources were or what the conclusions or thesis is based on. If a questionable fact cannot be verified elsewhere, I don't trust it. Which is why I don't go prowling through intentionally right wing sites, especially highly partisan sites, to find something to support my opinion, and why it lowers my respect for the integrity and scholarship of those who go prowling through highly partisan or biased leftwing sites looking for something to support their opinions--or more often something to cut and paste in lieu of making an argument themselves.

"Proof texting" or lifting something out of context and presenting it as evidence that it means something it never meant--many do that with the Bible, with the Founders, with public figures, and with ancient and modern scholars all the time--should never be accepted as valid debate by the intelligent.

 

[Uncensored2008]

But we agree on this. If I use ANY source, I always check to see what its own sources were or what the conclusions or thesis is based on. If a questionable fact cannot be verified elsewhere, I don't trust it. Which is why I don't go prowling through intentionally right wing sites, especially highly partisan sites, to find something to support my opinion, and why it lowers my respect for the integrity and scholarship of those who go prowling through highly partisan or biased leftwing sites looking for something to support their opinions--or more often something to cut and paste in lieu of making an argument themselves.

"Proof texting" or lifting something out of context and presenting it as evidence that it means something it never meant--many do that with the Bible, with the Founders, with public figures, and with ancient and modern scholars all the time--should never be accepted as valid debate by the intelligent.

Brookings is a perfect example, and also an illustration of the difference between left and right.

We all acknowledge that The Brookings Institute is left of center - that is simply a matter of fact. That said, you'll not find a single conservative on this board who impugns the integrity of Brookings, nor dismisses them out of hand.

How unlike the left, who instantly dismisses any information provided by those who fail to march lockstep to the party ideology.

In a very real way, the difference between left and right is the difference between dogma, inflexible and blind; and information, inquisitive and bright.

 

[Dragonlady]

In a very real way, the difference between left and right is the difference between dogma, inflexible and blind; and information, inquisitive and bright.

I would say the same thing, except it's the conservatives I find to be inflexible and blind.

 

[RKMBrown]

In a very real way, the difference between left and right is the difference between dogma, inflexible and blind; and information, inquisitive and bright.

I would say the same thing, except it's the conservatives I find to be inflexible and blind.

Yeah most conservatives are not very flexible to the idea of liberals robbing them blind. Go figure.

 

[Trajan]

Sorry but the Heritage Foundation is not a good source for information about Liberals and Progressives.

They are a Conservative think tank.

maybe, and Brookins...... Rand etc?

I always thought the best way of handle that kind of thing ( source wars) was to find 'facts' elsewhere to offer in dispute ...

Brookings is as left leaning as Heritage is right.

Good facts and data are good facts and data regardless of who puts them out, however, and I have not found Brookings or Heritage to ever intentionally skew, alter, or manipulate data or facts to make a particular ideological argument. Each might interpret the data to mean different things, but for both, it is what it is. And both will publish good and reasoned opposing arguments for a particular concept. And both will criticize actions of individuals or political parties regardless of the labels on them. Both are run and populated with humans capable of misjudgment and error as all humans are. But both do good work and both are going to get it as right as anybody will.

A good idea and good work is a good idea or good work regardless of who does it.

And as a conservative/classical liberal/libertarian I prefer to go to those who are doing the research and providing verifiable information--Heritage for instance always gives its sources for what it publishes. CATO, Brookings, and Heritage--that covers ALL the bases--are doing research and analysis that almost nobody else is doing.

Brookings is as left leaning as Heritage is right.

exactly

 

[Uncensored2008]

I would say the same thing, except it's the conservatives I find to be inflexible and blind.

Whilst you screamed over any information from a source denounced by your party.....

 

[westwall]

In a very real way, the difference between left and right is the difference between dogma, inflexible and blind; and information, inquisitive and bright.

I would say the same thing, except it's the conservatives I find to be inflexible and blind.

I guess you haven't looked in the mirror lately....

 

[Foxfyre]

In a very real way, the difference between left and right is the difference between dogma, inflexible and blind; and information, inquisitive and bright.

I would say the same thing, except it's the conservatives I find to be inflexible and blind.

I guess you haven't looked in the mirror lately....

Yup. Almost all of us have pulled from Brookings from time to time. DL would almost certainly deem that a respectable and satisfactory source. I wonder if she has ever gone to the Heritage Foundation or CATO site for information ever? But we're the blind and inflexible ones?

 

[Bfgrn]

Here is a conservative's opinion, and some facts about one of your beloved right wing think tanks...

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

by Bruce Bartlett

As some readers of this blog may know, I was fired by a right wing think tank called the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2005 for writing a book critical of George W. Bush's policies, especially his support for Medicare Part D. In the years since, I have lost a great many friends and been shunned by conservative society in Washington, DC.

Now the same thing has happened to David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

It saddened me to hear this. I have always hoped that my experience was unique. But now I see that I was just the first to suffer from a closing of the conservative mind. Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already.

Sadly, there is no place for David and me to go. The donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line, such as the one recently established by McCain economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

I will have more to say on this topic later. But I wanted to say that this is a black day for what passes for a conservative movement, scholarship, and the once-respected AEI.

 

[westwall]

I would say the same thing, except it's the conservatives I find to be inflexible and blind.

I guess you haven't looked in the mirror lately....

Yup. Almost all of us have pulled from Brookings from time to time. DL would almost certainly deem that a respectable and satisfactory source. I wonder if she has ever gone to the Heritage Foundation or CATO site for information ever? But we're the blind and inflexible ones?

In my long experience the most inflexible people I have EVER dealt with are ultra leftists. No amount of factual data will divert them from their pre-conceived ideas....none...

 

[Smilebong]

I guess you haven't looked in the mirror lately....

Yup. Almost all of us have pulled from Brookings from time to time. DL would almost certainly deem that a respectable and satisfactory source. I wonder if she has ever gone to the Heritage Foundation or CATO site for information ever? But we're the blind and inflexible ones?

In my long experience the most inflexible people I have EVER dealt with are ultra leftists. No amount of factual data will divert them from their pre-conceived ideas....none...

I have experienced the same. And I have never been able to figure out why.

 

[Trajan]

Here is a conservative's opinion, and some facts about one of your beloved right wing think tanks...

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

by Bruce Bartlett

As some readers of this blog may know, I was fired by a right wing think tank called the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2005 for writing a book critical of George W. Bush's policies, especially his support for Medicare Part D. In the years since, I have lost a great many friends and been shunned by conservative society in Washington, DC.

Now the same thing has happened to David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

It saddened me to hear this. I have always hoped that my experience was unique. But now I see that I was just the first to suffer from a closing of the conservative mind. Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already.

Sadly, there is no place for David and me to go. The donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line, such as the one recently established by McCain economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

I will have more to say on this topic later. But I wanted to say that this is a black day for what passes for a conservative movement, scholarship, and the once-respected AEI.

oh god not this again...

 

[Foxfyre]

Here is a conservative's opinion, and some facts about one of your beloved right wing think tanks...

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

by Bruce Bartlett

As some readers of this blog may know, I was fired by a right wing think tank called the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2005 for writing a book critical of George W. Bush's policies, especially his support for Medicare Part D. In the years since, I have lost a great many friends and been shunned by conservative society in Washington, DC.

Now the same thing has happened to David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

It saddened me to hear this. I have always hoped that my experience was unique. But now I see that I was just the first to suffer from a closing of the conservative mind. Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already.

Sadly, there is no place for David and me to go. The donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line, such as the one recently established by McCain economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

I will have more to say on this topic later. But I wanted to say that this is a black day for what passes for a conservative movement, scholarship, and the once-respected AEI.

oh god not this again...

It's just another case of 'broad and open minded liberals' cutting and pasting an opinion by somebody rather than doing any digging to fnd out whether the opinion--most especially such a self-serving one--is true. While it is true that Bartlett was fired, it was NOT true that it was because he wrote a book critical of President Bush--that is of course the liberal line that many gleefully swallow hook, line, and sinker, without question.

The reason was that he accepted six figures to write a policy analysis - which is what the Center for Policy Analysis does - and instead he wrote a political expose'--something the Center for Policy Analysis does not do--on company time. And refused to fix it when he was called on it. Had he analyzed the effectiveness or lack thereof of the various Bush initiatives there would have been no problem. But he instead attacked Pesident Bush personally. NCPA doesn't do that. Had Bartlett done it to Obama, the response would have been the same.

David Frum and AEI parted company for much of the same reason. Instead of developing a policy analysis of HOW the different sides could work together effecively on healthcare reform, he attacked Reublicans. The AEI does not do that. Had Frum attacked the Democrats in the same way, the results would have been the same.

It is the difference between arguing, defending, or competently criticizing a concept--the purpose of research, debate, and analysis--is served by accusing, blaming, and/or condemning somebody. Frum too often does the latter and not nearly as much of the former.

And coincidentally it is why there is rarely a productive discussion on any issue when conservatives or liberals attack groups and people personally, and will not look at an issue objectively and separate from personalities or political groups involved.

 

[westwall]

Here is a conservative's opinion, and some facts about one of your beloved right wing think tanks...

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

by Bruce Bartlett

As some readers of this blog may know, I was fired by a right wing think tank called the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2005 for writing a book critical of George W. Bush's policies, especially his support for Medicare Part D. In the years since, I have lost a great many friends and been shunned by conservative society in Washington, DC.

Now the same thing has happened to David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

It saddened me to hear this. I have always hoped that my experience was unique. But now I see that I was just the first to suffer from a closing of the conservative mind. Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already.

Sadly, there is no place for David and me to go. The donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line, such as the one recently established by McCain economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

I will have more to say on this topic later. But I wanted to say that this is a black day for what passes for a conservative movement, scholarship, and the once-respected AEI.

oh god not this again...

It's just another case of 'broad and open minded liberals' cutting and pasting an opinion by somebody rather than doing any digging to fnd out whether the opinion--most especially such a self-serving one--is true. While it is true that Bartlett was fired, it was NOT true that it was because he wrote a book critical of President Bush--that is of course the liberal line that many gleefully swallow hook, line, and sinker, without question.

The reason was that he accepted six figures to write a policy analysis - which is what the Center for Policy Analysis does - and instead he wrote a political expose'--something the Center for Policy Analysis does not do--on company time. And refused to fix it when he was called on it. Had he analyzed the effectiveness or lack thereof of the various Bush initiatives there would have been no problem. But he instead attacked Pesident Bush personally. NCPA doesn't do that. Had Bartlett done it to Obama, the response would have been the same.

David Frum and AEI parted company for much of the same reason. Instead of developing a policy analysis of HOW the different sides could work together effecively on healthcare reform, he attacked Reublicans. The AEI does not do that. Had Frum attacked the Democrats in the same way, the results would have been the same.

It is the difference between arguing, defending, or competently criticizing a concept--the purpose of research, debate, and analysis--is served by accusing, blaming, and/or condemning somebody. Frum too often does the latter and not nearly as much of the former.

And coincidentally it is why there is rarely a productive discussion on any issue when conservatives or liberals attack groups and people personally, and will not look at an issue objectively and separate from personalities or political groups involved.

What? You expect leftwing nutters to actually care about facts? Surely you jest!

 

[AVG-JOE]

Let me get this straight. Me being tolerant of gays makes me an intolerant conservative red-neck. This because I'm intolerant of your intolerance for gays... I see. ROFL you must be a liberal your logic is flawless.

Perhaps I had difficulty understanding the meaning in your post because it was so peppered with pointless personal insults.

If I have misread you, I apologize.

I may have been intentionally obtuse. This because I'm not convinced that every person of any party agrees with everything done by the party they tend to agree with most.

<-- Constitutional Conservative, and I don't support laws that discriminate based on race, gender, creed, religion, sexual preference, ...

Yeah, that's a problem with a thread like this. Most of us are not nearly as partisan as we can start sounding 162 pages in to a stupid "defend your base ideology" thread.

This is the kind of 'Liberal' I fancy myself: http://www.usmessageboard.com/educa...th-conservatism-america-was-born-liberal.html
It's the 'liberal' thinking of the era that impresses me.

My title is a bit abrasive... my only excuse: American politics of the first two decades of the 21st Century.

I'm a simple man. Politically I'd like to vote for fair and simple taxes, public budgets that are balanced by law, and to be left alone.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrO4_nyamZs]The Who - The Seeker - YouTube[/ame]

 

[American_Jihad]

Do you know what President Kennedy meant when he said "ask not..." or are you going to twist his words to serve YOUR agenda, and not his?

You twisted jfk's speech not me, oh yeah that salunsky crap don't work on me...

Oh, I see, a typical conservative troll, infested with FEAR.

Go run home to mommy and hide under the bed...

Typical progressive/liberal response from a cocksucking plagiarizer that's got nothing...

By the way liberals will be hiding under the bed when the time comes...

 

[Bfgrn]

Here is a conservative's opinion, and some facts about one of your beloved right wing think tanks...

David Frum and the Closing of the Conservative Mind

by Bruce Bartlett

As some readers of this blog may know, I was fired by a right wing think tank called the National Center for Policy Analysis in 2005 for writing a book critical of George W. Bush's policies, especially his support for Medicare Part D. In the years since, I have lost a great many friends and been shunned by conservative society in Washington, DC.

Now the same thing has happened to David Frum, who has been fired by the American Enterprise Institute. I don't know all the details, but I presume that his Waterloo post on Sunday condemning Republicans for failing to work with Democrats on healthcare reform was the final straw.

Since, he is no longer affiliated with AEI, I feel free to say publicly something he told me in private a few months ago. He asked if I had noticed any comments by AEI "scholars" on the subject of health care reform. I said no and he said that was because they had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

It saddened me to hear this. I have always hoped that my experience was unique. But now I see that I was just the first to suffer from a closing of the conservative mind. Rigid conformity is being enforced, no dissent is allowed, and the conservative brain will slowly shrivel into dementia if it hasn't already.

Sadly, there is no place for David and me to go. The donor community is only interested in financing organizations that parrot the party line, such as the one recently established by McCain economic adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin.

I will have more to say on this topic later. But I wanted to say that this is a black day for what passes for a conservative movement, scholarship, and the once-respected AEI.

oh god not this again...

Yea, let's not face the truth, it will ruin the dogmatic drone going on by the right on this thread.

Let's glean some key points from Bartlett's damning narrative:

American Enterprise Institute "scholars" on the subject of health care reform had been ordered not to speak to the media because they agreed with too much of what Obama was trying to do.

THAT is because what Obama and the Democrats did was pass the conservative health care plan from the early 1990's, right down the the conservative idea of an individual mandate.

 

[Bfgrn]

You twisted jfk's speech not me, oh yeah that salunsky crap don't work on me...

Oh, I see, a typical conservative troll, infested with FEAR.

Go run home to mommy and hide under the bed...

Typical progressive/liberal response from a cocksucking plagiarizer that's got nothing...

By the way liberals will be hiding under the bed when the time comes...

No plagiarism pea brain. The key narrative was Robert Frost's who I gave credit to. You are just confused, and stupid. A typical right wing turd.

 

[Pogo]

:sigh: Foxy when are you gonna learn some political science... you insist on conflating leftism with liberalism and then turn around and call them "self-described liberals". Define "self".


You know what, I think I'm going to start calling hamburgers "ocelots"... self-described of course.

Pogo, we've been through this.

There is nothing even remotely "liberal" about you. You espouse positions in this forum that consistently seek to curtail individual liberty, particularly in regard to 1st and 2nd amendment liberty. You constantly promote the authoritarian left, defending petty despots like Obama and Holder in virtually every case.

You are a leftist Pogo, not a liberal.

Uhh.... really Pothead?

(for those of you who haven't seen the act, this is the part where I challenge Unsensical to "back that shit up" and having nothing, he tucks tail and slinks away. So I guess I'm up... )

Ahem-- Go ahead, quote me where I've espoused curtailment of these liberties. Watcha got?



As always.... cue crickets.

I admit I don't know why he keeps digging himself into these holes. He's like a dog.