Why exactly are you unwilling to pay for other people's medical care?

[Flopper]

Whether they chose poverty or not, the result is the same. Society still has to contend with the resulting increased crime, broken families, family abuse, addiction, physical and mental disease.

Good schooling will make little difference if the parents are teaching the child by word and deed that they can't succeed which is common among the very poor. If the child does not develop self esteem in their early years, the chance of any real success in school or in life is not good. As adults they are very likely to spend their life moving between low paid jobs separated by months of unemployment and government support.

Today a large segment of entitlement money goes not to the chronically unemployed but the working poor. 60% of those on food stamps are either working or were recently employed. Over 40% of the families receiving TANF, have at least one adult working. Over half of the non-elderly in HUD housing are working families. The problem is not the people are not working. The problem is jobs don't pay enough money to support the family.

In most states, a family of two parents, one working and one caring for the 3 kids with a family income of $30,000 a year is likely to be receiving a couple hundred dollars in food stamps, Medicaid, free or reduced lunches for the kids. If we reduce federal spending on these programs, this family would still survive but would have a harder time doing so.

The result is the same. It's not one person's place to financially offset the results whether the choice was poverty or poverty was the result of bad choices.

The problem isn't that jobs aren't paying enough, the problem is those with such low skills they warrant low wages think someone should pay them more than those wages are worth. If someone offers what's worth $8/hour on the open market in skill and they get $8/hour, the problem is with the one offering not the one paying. Are you saying an employer should pay someone more than what they offer is worth?

The problem with that family of 5 getting those handouts is they don't pay the taxes that funds those handouts, all the while, complaining that they aren't being HANDED enough. In fact, you could almost double the family income and they still wouldn't pay income taxes. To be exact, the family income could be $58,249 based solely on the makeup of the family, and they wouldn't pay a dime in income taxes.

I actually do agree with on taxes. The middle class is not paying enough taxes. However, I doubt a family of 5 at a $30,000 yearly income could afford to pay more than 1 or 2% of gross income in taxes without seriously effecting their quality of life.

Although a person may only be worth his pay of $8/hr, it does not change the fact that $8 is hardly enough to support a single person much less a family. If the employee wants to make more, then he or she should get more education/training , right. However, that presents two problems. Higher education is not cheap. In fact for someone making $8/hr, it's a fortune. Secondly, many people in low paying jobs do not have the intelligence and educational background needed to be successful in the kind of advanced education in demand by employers. Far too many graduates of community colleges are going back to the same jobs they had before they started school.

I think the trends we are seeing now will continue, higher costs in higher education, more competition in higher education, and falling demand for unskilled and low skilled workers. That's going to mean more pressure on government to provide assistance for low income workers.

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

 

[Conservative65]

The result is the same. It's not one person's place to financially offset the results whether the choice was poverty or poverty was the result of bad choices.

The problem isn't that jobs aren't paying enough, the problem is those with such low skills they warrant low wages think someone should pay them more than those wages are worth. If someone offers what's worth $8/hour on the open market in skill and they get $8/hour, the problem is with the one offering not the one paying. Are you saying an employer should pay someone more than what they offer is worth?

The problem with that family of 5 getting those handouts is they don't pay the taxes that funds those handouts, all the while, complaining that they aren't being HANDED enough. In fact, you could almost double the family income and they still wouldn't pay income taxes. To be exact, the family income could be $58,249 based solely on the makeup of the family, and they wouldn't pay a dime in income taxes.

I actually do agree with on taxes. The middle class is not paying enough taxes. However, I doubt a family of 5 at a $30,000 yearly income could afford to pay more than 1 or 2% of gross income in taxes without seriously effecting their quality of life.

Although a person may only be worth his pay of $8/hr, it does not change the fact that $8 is hardly enough to support a single person much less a family. If the employee wants to make more, then he or she should get more education/training , right. However, that presents two problems. Higher education is not cheap. In fact for someone making $8/hr, it's a fortune. Secondly, many people in low paying jobs do not have the intelligence and educational background needed to be successful in the kind of advanced education in demand by employers. Far too many graduates of community colleges are going back to the same jobs they had before they started school.

I think the trends we are seeing now will continue, higher costs in higher education, more competition in higher education, and falling demand for unskilled and low skilled workers. That's going to mean more pressure on government to provide assistance for low income workers.

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

If they can't do the level of work that they should do in high school, they don't belong in college.

The problem with what you say is that many on the left want the rest of us to invest in something you say involves screw ups.

 

[Arianrhod]

I actually do agree with on taxes. The middle class is not paying enough taxes. However, I doubt a family of 5 at a $30,000 yearly income could afford to pay more than 1 or 2% of gross income in taxes without seriously effecting their quality of life.

Although a person may only be worth his pay of $8/hr, it does not change the fact that $8 is hardly enough to support a single person much less a family. If the employee wants to make more, then he or she should get more education/training , right. However, that presents two problems. Higher education is not cheap. In fact for someone making $8/hr, it's a fortune. Secondly, many people in low paying jobs do not have the intelligence and educational background needed to be successful in the kind of advanced education in demand by employers. Far too many graduates of community colleges are going back to the same jobs they had before they started school.

I think the trends we are seeing now will continue, higher costs in higher education, more competition in higher education, and falling demand for unskilled and low skilled workers. That's going to mean more pressure on government to provide assistance for low income workers.

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

If they can't do the level of work that they should do in high school, they don't belong in college.

Then you'll be happy to know that the Sanders plan includes an academic requirement.

 

[Flopper]

I actually do agree with on taxes. The middle class is not paying enough taxes. However, I doubt a family of 5 at a $30,000 yearly income could afford to pay more than 1 or 2% of gross income in taxes without seriously effecting their quality of life.

Although a person may only be worth his pay of $8/hr, it does not change the fact that $8 is hardly enough to support a single person much less a family. If the employee wants to make more, then he or she should get more education/training , right. However, that presents two problems. Higher education is not cheap. In fact for someone making $8/hr, it's a fortune. Secondly, many people in low paying jobs do not have the intelligence and educational background needed to be successful in the kind of advanced education in demand by employers. Far too many graduates of community colleges are going back to the same jobs they had before they started school.

I think the trends we are seeing now will continue, higher costs in higher education, more competition in higher education, and falling demand for unskilled and low skilled workers. That's going to mean more pressure on government to provide assistance for low income workers.

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

If they can't do the level of work that they should do in high school, they don't belong in college.

The problem with what you say is that many on the left want the rest of us to invest in something you say involves screw ups.

Unless, you really want to see the welfare state grow, then you should be in favor of providing education for those with lower abilities and aspirations that are in low skilled jobs.

 

[Arianrhod]

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

If they can't do the level of work that they should do in high school, they don't belong in college.

The problem with what you say is that many on the left want the rest of us to invest in something you say involves screw ups.

Unless, you really want to see the welfare state grow, then you should be in favor of providing education for those with lower abilities and aspirations that are in low skilled jobs.

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

 

[dblack]

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

Maybe they see it as a private investment, and not something government should be in charge of.

 

[Flopper]

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

If they can't do the level of work that they should do in high school, they don't belong in college.

The problem with what you say is that many on the left want the rest of us to invest in something you say involves screw ups.

Unless, you really want to see the welfare state grow, then you should be in favor of providing education for those with lower abilities and aspirations that are in low skilled jobs.

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

I think most young people in community college certificate and para-professional programs see their education as a stepping stone to making more money. Many of these students are paying little or nothing. Student's pursuing a 4 year degree pay more money out of pocket and through college loans and I think they do look upon their education as an investment.

 

[westwall]

The result is the same. It's not one person's place to financially offset the results whether the choice was poverty or poverty was the result of bad choices.

The problem isn't that jobs aren't paying enough, the problem is those with such low skills they warrant low wages think someone should pay them more than those wages are worth. If someone offers what's worth $8/hour on the open market in skill and they get $8/hour, the problem is with the one offering not the one paying. Are you saying an employer should pay someone more than what they offer is worth?

The problem with that family of 5 getting those handouts is they don't pay the taxes that funds those handouts, all the while, complaining that they aren't being HANDED enough. In fact, you could almost double the family income and they still wouldn't pay income taxes. To be exact, the family income could be $58,249 based solely on the makeup of the family, and they wouldn't pay a dime in income taxes.

I actually do agree with on taxes. The middle class is not paying enough taxes. However, I doubt a family of 5 at a $30,000 yearly income could afford to pay more than 1 or 2% of gross income in taxes without seriously effecting their quality of life.

Although a person may only be worth his pay of $8/hr, it does not change the fact that $8 is hardly enough to support a single person much less a family. If the employee wants to make more, then he or she should get more education/training , right. However, that presents two problems. Higher education is not cheap. In fact for someone making $8/hr, it's a fortune. Secondly, many people in low paying jobs do not have the intelligence and educational background needed to be successful in the kind of advanced education in demand by employers. Far too many graduates of community colleges are going back to the same jobs they had before they started school.

I think the trends we are seeing now will continue, higher costs in higher education, more competition in higher education, and falling demand for unskilled and low skilled workers. That's going to mean more pressure on government to provide assistance for low income workers.

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

We are in agreement here. In fact there is a program at our local CC that allows high schooler's, while still in high school, to attend college classes. The high achievers are normally not a problem. It is the middle of the road kids that need help. Currently the CC system does very little other than glad handing to help them. If they are a poor student the CC system bends over backwards to help them when to be honest they shouldn't even be there.

My wife teaches occasionally at the CC and MOST of the students are poor. To the point where getting them to do a single assignment can be difficult. They are paid to attend but they truly don't care about succeeding. Those kids should be elsewhere instead of wasting valuable resources.

 

[Arianrhod]

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

Maybe they see it as a private investment, and not something government should be in charge of.

State governments' involvement in state universities would be no greater than it is currently. I suppose if people wanted to personally screen working-class kids for their potential as future doctors, dentists, nurses, accountants, etc. and then sink their own money into paying the best candidates' tuition, they could do that but, like knocking on doors in working-class neighborhoods demanding "pay your fair share!!!!" it would be both labor intensive and not cost saving.

Although maybe these "volunteers" could do both simultaneously. "Hi, I'm here to confiscate the change in your sofa cushions and the dollar bills in the cookie jar...unless your kid wants to go to dental school. Because my dentist will be retiring in a few years and..."

Sounds like a plan.

 

[Arianrhod]

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

If they can't do the level of work that they should do in high school, they don't belong in college.

The problem with what you say is that many on the left want the rest of us to invest in something you say involves screw ups.

Unless, you really want to see the welfare state grow, then you should be in favor of providing education for those with lower abilities and aspirations that are in low skilled jobs.

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

I think most young people in community college certificate and para-professional programs see their education as a stepping stone to making more money. Many of these students are paying little or nothing. Student's pursuing a 4 year degree pay more money out of pocket and through college loans and I think they do look upon their education as an investment.

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

 

[dblack]

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

Maybe they see it as a private investment, and not something government should be in charge of.

State governments' involvement in state universities would be no greater than it is currently. I suppose if people wanted to personally screen working-class kids for their potential as future doctors, dentists, nurses, accountants, etc. and then sink their own money into paying the best candidates' tuition, they could do that but, like knocking on doors in working-class neighborhoods demanding "pay your fair share!!!!" it would be both labor intensive and not cost saving.

Although maybe these "volunteers" could do both simultaneously. "Hi, I'm here to confiscate the change in your sofa cushions and the dollar bills in the cookie jar...unless your kid wants to go to dental school. Because my dentist will be retiring in a few years and..."

Sounds like a plan.

Huh?

 

[oldsoul]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

 

[Arianrhod]

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

Maybe they see it as a private investment, and not something government should be in charge of.

State governments' involvement in state universities would be no greater than it is currently. I suppose if people wanted to personally screen working-class kids for their potential as future doctors, dentists, nurses, accountants, etc. and then sink their own money into paying the best candidates' tuition, they could do that but, like knocking on doors in working-class neighborhoods demanding "pay your fair share!!!!" it would be both labor intensive and not cost saving.

Although maybe these "volunteers" could do both simultaneously. "Hi, I'm here to confiscate the change in your sofa cushions and the dollar bills in the cookie jar...unless your kid wants to go to dental school. Because my dentist will be retiring in a few years and..."

Sounds like a plan.

Huh?

I'm not sure why we're discussing this in the healthcare forum when there's already a thread about "free stuff" vis-a-vis state college tuition in another forum, but why not?

I don't know if any of the other candidates have a plan, but the Sanders plan would pay for itself by levying a small fee on hedge funds.

Period.

I guarantee you the people screaming hysterically in that other thread don't even know what a hedge fund is, but they're outraged anyway.

 

[Arianrhod]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

And if you don't have the resources? "Sorry, kid. Sucks to be you"?

You do realize you will have a choice to send your son to a private college regardless of whether state universities return to their original tuition-free status, right?

 

[oldsoul]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

And if you don't have the resources? "Sorry, kid. Sucks to be you"?

You do realize you will have a choice to send your son to a private college regardless of whether state universities return to their original tuition-free status, right?

You're missing the point.
If Socialism was so great then how is it that EVERY time it's tried it collapes upon itself? Maybe it's because all the other attempts where by people who just weren't as smart as Sanders?

If I don't have the resourses then I will expect him to pay some too. WOW, everything really is black and white with libs, isn't it? All or nothing, no middle ground, no comprimise, no innovation...

 

[Arianrhod]

Two reasons why the "not with my tax dollars!!!11!" group is resistant to tuition-free education at state universities (which, BTW, is the way it used to be in the 1950s they ordinarily tout so highly). Two-year certificate kids might compete with their own kids for jobs, and four-year kids getting "free stuff" is anathema.

Wrong again. If you want to put your money into someone else's education, go head. I would rather have the CHOICE as to what CHARITIES I donate to, if I donate at all. It is not the role of government, nor should it be, to re-distribute wealth. I come from the group of people that sent their kids to two year college, because that's what they could afford. I hope to have the resourses to send my son to any college he chooses, and I don't want a hand-out to do it.

And if you don't have the resources? "Sorry, kid. Sucks to be you"?

You do realize you will have a choice to send your son to a private college regardless of whether state universities return to their original tuition-free status, right?

You're missing the point.
If Socialism was so great then how is it that EVERY time it's tried it collapes upon itself?

You should really start a thread to promote your hypothesis in the appropriate forum, because it will go largely unnoticed here.

Now, I'm willing to continue discussing education in the healthcare forum, but only if you can stay on topic.

Were you aware that (A) state universities used to be tuition-free and (B) regardless of who's elected, you would still have the choice of sending your son to a private college...if, as you say, you had the resources? If you didn't, you might appreciate a tuition-free state university as an alternative. I'm fairly confident your son would appreciate the opportunity for higher education vs "Tough luck, kid." JMO.

 

[dblack]

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

Maybe they see it as a private investment, and not something government should be in charge of.

State governments' involvement in state universities would be no greater than it is currently. I suppose if people wanted to personally screen working-class kids for their potential as future doctors, dentists, nurses, accountants, etc. and then sink their own money into paying the best candidates' tuition, they could do that but, like knocking on doors in working-class neighborhoods demanding "pay your fair share!!!!" it would be both labor intensive and not cost saving.

Although maybe these "volunteers" could do both simultaneously. "Hi, I'm here to confiscate the change in your sofa cushions and the dollar bills in the cookie jar...unless your kid wants to go to dental school. Because my dentist will be retiring in a few years and..."

Sounds like a plan.

Huh?

I'm not sure why we're discussing this in the healthcare forum when there's already a thread about "free stuff" vis-a-vis state college tuition in another forum, but why not?

I don't know if any of the other candidates have a plan, but the Sanders plan would pay for itself by levying a small fee on hedge funds.

Period.

I guarantee you the people screaming hysterically in that other thread don't even know what a hedge fund is, but they're outraged anyway.

It's essentially all the same argument. We don't think government should be used as a general purpose tool to supply society with benefits. That's really the core debate here.

 

[Arianrhod]

I've come to the conclusion that they have a lowered ability to understand that education is an investment. As one generation of professionals ages out and retires, who's going to replace them? They don't think of things like that.

Maybe they see it as a private investment, and not something government should be in charge of.

State governments' involvement in state universities would be no greater than it is currently. I suppose if people wanted to personally screen working-class kids for their potential as future doctors, dentists, nurses, accountants, etc. and then sink their own money into paying the best candidates' tuition, they could do that but, like knocking on doors in working-class neighborhoods demanding "pay your fair share!!!!" it would be both labor intensive and not cost saving.

Although maybe these "volunteers" could do both simultaneously. "Hi, I'm here to confiscate the change in your sofa cushions and the dollar bills in the cookie jar...unless your kid wants to go to dental school. Because my dentist will be retiring in a few years and..."

Sounds like a plan.

Huh?

I'm not sure why we're discussing this in the healthcare forum when there's already a thread about "free stuff" vis-a-vis state college tuition in another forum, but why not?

I don't know if any of the other candidates have a plan, but the Sanders plan would pay for itself by levying a small fee on hedge funds.

Period.

I guarantee you the people screaming hysterically in that other thread don't even know what a hedge fund is, but they're outraged anyway.

It's essentially all the same argument. We don't think government should be used as a general purpose tool to supply society with benefits. That's really the core debate here.

I think that's at least partly due to a misinterpretation of that phrase in the Preamble about "promote the general welfare." Too many people conflate it with "welfare as in 'welfare queen'" and ignore the "general" part.

A healthier, better educated nation is a nation that can compete in the global marketplace. That's known as "enlightened self-interest," a phrase that the same people who confuse "welfare" with "welfare queen" also lop off the "enlightened" part and embrace "self-interest" to mean "Me, ME, MEEEEE! Right now...fuck the future. MEEEEEEE!"

 

[Flopper]

I actually do agree with on taxes. The middle class is not paying enough taxes. However, I doubt a family of 5 at a $30,000 yearly income could afford to pay more than 1 or 2% of gross income in taxes without seriously effecting their quality of life.

Although a person may only be worth his pay of $8/hr, it does not change the fact that $8 is hardly enough to support a single person much less a family. If the employee wants to make more, then he or she should get more education/training , right. However, that presents two problems. Higher education is not cheap. In fact for someone making $8/hr, it's a fortune. Secondly, many people in low paying jobs do not have the intelligence and educational background needed to be successful in the kind of advanced education in demand by employers. Far too many graduates of community colleges are going back to the same jobs they had before they started school.

I think the trends we are seeing now will continue, higher costs in higher education, more competition in higher education, and falling demand for unskilled and low skilled workers. That's going to mean more pressure on government to provide assistance for low income workers.

Community colleges are a joke to be frank. Well, I'm being harsh there....they are a joke because they are being forced to do the education that the high schools USED to do. Far too many kids going to community colleges are having to enroll in remedial math, English and science classes first, because the education they received in high school was sub par.

It truly is a crime what is being done to these kids. It truly is.

True, but once one is past that - or actually shows up with that education already - community colleges can be very helpful for taking transferable undergrad courses at a much lower cost than at a university.

There are some truly great community colleges out there, however most are being dumbed down just like the high schools. I agree that for kids on a tight budget the CC route is essential. But we really need to stop dumbing the whole system down so that progressives can feel good about themselves. they are screwing the children of this country over.

Generally, community colleges are open enrollment, which means that any high school graduate is eligible to attend and it should remain so. No matter how badly someone screwed up in high school they have the opportunity to improve their education in a community college.

There are two tracks in a community, an AA or AS degree whose credits are transferable will transfer to 4 year schools and various paraprofessional degrees and certificates which do not. The qualify of programs vary just as they do in 4 years schools.

We are in agreement here. In fact there is a program out our local CC that allows high schooler's, while still in high school, to attend college classes. The high achievers are normally not a problem. It is the middle of the road kids that need help. Currently the CC system does very little other than glad handing to help them. If they are a poor student the CC system bends over backwards to help them when to be honest they shouldn't even be there.

My wife teaches occasionally at the CC and MOST of the students are poor. To the point where getting them to do a single assignment can be difficult. They are paid to attend but they truly don't care about succeeding. Those kids should be elsewhere instead of wasting valuable resources.

That's one of the things I hate about teaching in community college is there are always those that are going to fail because they don't apply themselves or just don't care. However, most of the classes I have taught, they're in the minority.

I think people are far too critical of the success rate of programs that address the needs of the poor. To a social scientist, programs with a success rate of 40% are often considered successful. Few people seem to realize just how hard it is too work with people that lived most of their lives in poverty, have about zero self esteem, and have failed so many times that they have just given up.

 

[dblack]

... A healthier, better educated nation is a nation that can compete in the global marketplace. ...

The question is whether it's the job of government to make us healthier or better educated, or better at competing in the market place. I adamantly don't want government involved in those kinds of projects. I want a government that protects our freedom to pursue the levels of health, education and competitiveness that we want.