Ya know? How about an honest discussion.

[hjmick]

That's not spin, it's reality.

Spin or reality, doesn't matter. It's bullshit either way.

 

[MaggieMae]

cowboy propaganda.

If there's points of it you think you can debate, have at it! I linked you to the thread!

I only have one: Nobody is planning on taking all your guns away.

 

[MaggieMae]

Oh, you're wrong again my Dear.

The Dems WILL pass this, no matter what. They are invested in Obama doing well and they WILL fall on their re-election swords to get this passed. They don't NEED any GOP votes or support to do so, so blaming the GOP for the trouble they're having is hugely misplaced blame.

If you must blame someone, blame the blue-dogs who stopped this from getting passed before the recess! The rest of the Party is, that's why they're talking about special rules for this vote -- simple majority -- to get this passed without the GOP or their blue-dogs!

We're going to get this bill, I've never had any doubts about that.

They can't even get a simple majority without the Blue Dogs and with Kennedy and Byrd out of commission. If anything passes at all, it will simply be a regulatory overhaul of the insurance industry.

They will appease enough of the blue dogs, sweeten the pot for them and their districts enough, and will get a very few GOP votes the same way. For an example, see the stimulus.

It's going to be passed.

According to Olympia Snow, just this morning, no Republican will vote for a Senate bill containing a pubic option. Later today, it was pretty much confirmed that the conservative Democrats won't either (about 20 in the Senate). So there ya go.

 

[MaggieMae]

I have no issue with closing the border, hell, close the northern border as well. Plenty of crossings there as well. To say there is no sense in worrying about those already in the country strikes me as somewhat defeatist, however. Despite protestations to the contrary, it could be possible to find those in this country illegally and deport them to their country of origin. It's been done before. The problem is, the current politically correct atmosphere in which we find ourselves would make the process very hard.

It isn't just the political atmosphere, but the simple logistical problem of rounding up all the illegals. What if there was a nationwide dragnet? Where would we put them all while waiting for convoys of busses to arrive at hubs to transport them south of the border? What would we do with children of illegals who were born here and have a right to legally remain? Start refurbishing crumbling orphanages? Where would the extra border agents or police enforcers come from to begin even rounding them up?

People who think simply deporting illegals is a simple task that isn't being done because it's politically disadvantageous are not thinking through this huge problem.

I have no allusions about the difficulties of such a plan, but to say it can't be done at all is conceding defeat. You could start by deporting those picked up during the course of everyday police activity rather than turning them out with a ticket. This may sound harsh, and I suppose it is, but at some point the sovereignty of our borders has to be enforced. As for the children of illegals born here, I would argue that the "anchor baby" aspect of the 14th has outlived it's usefulness and needs to be addressed. I am not aware of any other country with this type of provision in their laws, why do we? It would not be an esay thing to do and it would have to start with little changes, but if nothing is done, nothing will change.

I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it won't be as easy as some people envision. For starters, just enforcing the current laws about not hiring illegals will help. Cities and towns need to patrol those areas where illegals congregate to line up for day labor, start making arrests and deportations. Before long, those will disappear. Without jobs keeping them in the country, they will soon return to Mexico. In fact, many have returned already because of job shortages resulting from the economic situation. Yes, it sounds cruel to boot people out of the country who simply want to work, but they knew the risks before they entered illegally, and being deported is the least potential harm to them, especially if they spent days crossing a desert or in the back of an 18-wheeler. At least the bus back home would be air-conditioned.

I also think lack of cheap Mexican labor will force agri-business (mega farms) to invest in heavy duty harvesting equipment. After all, how long ago was the cotton gin invented? You mean in all those years, nobody has come up with a similar solution for harvesting lettuce?

 

[MaggieMae]

That's why we call em DUmmies. they live under the illusion that it is so easy to find and export illegals,, so why hasn't it been done? Why is California going broke? 23 billion dollar deficit cause it ain't possible for no illegal to get signed onto any government program.. yea right. Go sell you bridge to someone else whydonchya? Why if they were serious about illegals not being enrolled on our socialistic gov. run health care plan did they just vote YES on the Heller Amendment.? I know I know. they aren't in fact serious the dummiecrats have every intention of insuring the illegals at the expense of seniors..

Try this, Willow. It might also shake something loose.

 

[MaggieMae]

A government who cannot control it's borders cannot control your health care. It's just that simple.

It's possible, but the Republicans don't want to. They have to keep their big biz homies in cheap labor yanno........and play ball with meckseeco.

demoncwats are in charge now big buddy , they voted down any and all attempts to identify illegals.. nice spin but yer dog don't hunt.

Do you not read anything I post and just automatically paw in "PHUCK YEW"?? Why don't you just put me on ignore, you ignorant twit?

Senate approves E-Verify expansion - Nextgov

The Senate passed an amendment last week that would allow employers to verify the work eligibility of existing employees, not just new hires.

The measure, included in the fiscal 2010 Homeland Security spending bill, would require all workers at companies that use E-Verify to present government-issued photo ID to employers, and encourage employers to use the system to confirm that their employees are legally allowed to work in the United States. Currently, employers voluntarily use the E-Verify system for new hires; federal agencies are required to use the program, which checks employees' Social Security numbers against a government database to determine their immigration status

 

[Zoom-boing]

Would that be Charles Krauthammer that immoral man who spouts off on Fox news regularly? Surely you wouldn't believe a word that man says? Immorality and total lack of empathy for any humanity reeks from the man. He is so immoral it shows on his physical demeanor and literally makes him one of the ugliest men I have ever seen.


.

You think he looks the way he does because he's immoral and lacks empathy? I thought it was because he was paralyzed (in 1972). He's in a wheelchair and I get the impression that he doesn't have a lot of freedom of movement in his body; not just that he can't walk but overall movement. I always got the impression that he may be hooked up to a respirator that breathes for him - the same way Christopher Reeves was on one. The way he talks it seems as if he has to time his speech with a machine. I could be wrong but that's what I see. How is he immoral?

 

[hjmick]

Would that be Charles Krauthammer that immoral man who spouts off on Fox news regularly? Surely you wouldn't believe a word that man says? Immorality and total lack of empathy for any humanity reeks from the man. He is so immoral it shows on his physical demeanor and literally makes him one of the ugliest men I have ever seen.


.

You think he looks the way he does because he's immoral and lacks empathy? I thought it was because he was paralyzed (in 1972). He's in a wheelchair and I get the impression that he doesn't have a lot of freedom of movement in his body; not just that he can't walk but overall movement. I always got the impression that he may be hooked up to a respirator that breathes for him - the same way Christopher Reeves was on one. The way he talks it seems as if he has to time his speech with a machine. I could be wrong but that's what I see. How is he immoral?

Except for jumping into an empty swimming pool, Krauthammer is a very intelligent and complex man. He worked for Jimmy Carter and Walter Mondale. He is a supporter of embryonic stem cell research and a longtime advocate of radically higher energy taxes to induce conservation. He is an opponent of the death penalty, a supporter of legalized abortion, an intelligent design critic and an advocate for the scientific consensus on evolution.

He attended Herzliah High School and McGill University and obtained an honors degree in political science and economics in 1970. From 1970 to 1971, he was a Commonwealth Scholar in politics at Balliol College, Oxford. He later moved to the United States, where he attended Harvard Medical School. Suffering a paralyzing accident in his first year of medical school when he jumped into a waterless pool, he was hospitalized for a year, during which time he continued his medical studies. He graduated with his class, earning an M.D. from Harvard Medical School in 1975, and then began working as a psychiatrist at Massachusetts General Hospital. In October 1984, he became board certified in psychiatry by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology.

From 1975–1978, Krauthammer was a Resident and then a Chief Resident in Psychiatry at the Massachusetts General Hospital. During this time he and a colleague identified a form of mania resulting from a concomitant medical illness, rather than a primary inherent disorder, which they named "secondary mania" and published a second important paper on the epidemiology of manic illness. The standard textbook for bipolar disease (Manic Depressive Illness by Goodwin and Jamison) contains twelve references to his work.

In 1978, Krauthammer quit medical practice to direct planning in psychiatric research for the Jimmy Carter administration, and began contributing to The New Republic magazine. During the presidential campaign of 1980, Krauthammer served as a speech writer to Vice President Walter Mondale.

 

[Gudrid]

so I am correct illegals will receive care because the democrats refuse to allow anyone to verify legal status. end of story. you can't have it both ways. either verify legal status or stfu democrats.. 500 billion dollar cuts from medicare + refusal to veryify legal status == taking from seniors and giving to illegals.

If someone without legal documents applies for health care assistance, it will be known whether he/she is here illegally and would be deported. It's a fucking no-brainer, woman.

How will it be known?

Eligibility would be screened prior to enrollment in the program. Standard government documents tend to be a birth certificate and social security card.

I haven't been able to read the massive amount of stuff that was added since this morning - did anyone manage to find the text of the Heller amendment? I'm not willing to take the media's word for it on what it said.

 

[Old Rocks]

By the way Factcheck.org or whatever the fuck it's called doesn't tell the WHOLE truth. The bill doesn't say it will cover illegal immigrants, but it doesn't say it wouldn't either. The bill does provide cuts in Medicare,( 500 billion in the next ten years) which will effect senior citizens. Oh but factcheck doesn't mention that huh? How convenient.

Fellow, I am a senior citizen, and if they just cut out fellows like Rick Scott, who stole at least 1.7 billion from Medicare, and then defended the theft by stating that everybody was doing it, you could easily cut that much out of the Medicare budget over a decade.

By the way, Scott is now the head of Conservatives for Patients Rights. And is running a company that is showing the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia how to censure the internet. You fellow pick some doozies for leaders.

 

[Old Rocks]

A government who cannot control it's borders cannot control your health care. It's just that simple.

A government that cant run a savings program such as Social Security without turning it into a Ponzie Scheme (madoff) can't be trusted with you're health care.

There is more where this is coming from.

That is stupid, and you know it. The SS administrative costs are about 4%. Not only that, I just recieved a little notice from the SS administration on a construction company that I worked for that stated that in 2002, they had $8600 in a Davis-Bacon account in my name. I gave them a call, and their people administrating that plan had grown that amount in the last seven years to just over $500. Not an additional $500, but only $500.

At least the SS Administration is paying me exactly what they said they would. If they were ran like that private business, I would be getting about 90% less than they promised.

 

[Zoom-boing]

It's little wonder the elderly fear Obama's health scare program, with ageism bigots such as yourself part of his cult!

Why do you hate old people?

I have no hate in my blood except for dishonest and/or mean spirited people.

Old people are fine, just annoying. Stuck in their ways as human evolution occurs around them. They should move over or get run the fuck over. Contribute to discussions, don't just spite anything new. (evil wibwaws)

Perhaps you should write to Barry and his boys and suggest they put in a 'Cash for Codgers' amendment into the health care bills. It would help solve so many problems and if 'Cash for Clunkers' is any indication, it would be a smashing success.

btw, you should be taken out and shot.

 

[Zoom-boing]

I've posted the truth about the Heller amendment for YOU, specifically, and you choose to ignore it, as does the Just Say No blogosphere which is literally afire with attacks concerning that amendment.

The facts are these:

The only way anyone can get free health care under the existing proposals is to get "affordability credits" to pay for their health care. Two sections in the House bill already address this:

Sec. 242 states that in order to be eligible for affordability credits a person must be "an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States."

Section 246 states "NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS." Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

Both of those sections basically render the Heller amendment moot, since undocumented aliens are clearly NOT covered.

Finally, the Heller amendment would have generated intrusive investigation of ONLY those who opted for the public plan, and not those who opt for private plans creating a blatant discriminatory practice against poorer Americans.

How will they determine if these individuals are lawfully present or illegally present?

 

[rdean]

If you want an "honest" discussion, limit it to Democrats.

See, that was easy.

 

[wvpeach]

Geex Louise!

What a mess. More right wing anal retentive behavior.

Willow , you say boarder, I say border, you say po ta to I will say potato .

What are you 10 years old Willow ? All you can do is correct people's spelling?
Obviously that is the best you have , because your arguments are all pitiful and prove you got nothing.

As for the rest of you right wing pilers on. LOL




Listen up.

It's apparent you all have no morals. Thus you complain about any kind of health care for anybody else. I'd bet good money that a majority of you doing the bitching are on social security or disability of some kind. Sitting at home all day long bitching on the internet about anything anybody else gets. Selfish and bitter in your small little life's .

As for Charles Krauthammer. I do not give a shit who or what he is. I know he is a immoral nasty man. It's just that simple. Makes it all the worse if he is wheel chair bound because do you want to bet that social security disability picked up his medical care for a long while. Or some similiar program. So that makes the man a bigger immoral slime ball than I thought he was. He no doubt has been a beneficiary of the kindness of social programs. ........................... Or he had filthy rich parents.
Yet he would deny people in similar situations the same care he got.
Makes old Krauthammer even more immoral in my eyes.
And if he really is that bad off he best rethink his nasty heart, because he may about to meet his God and that will not be pretty for old nasty Krauthammer.

Boy you right wingers . You all stick your heads in the sands and try to pretend your not immoral. Go ahead and try. I happen to know there is one that knows every lie and immorality in your being.

 

[WillowTree]

That's why we call em DUmmies. they live under the illusion that it is so easy to find and export illegals,, so why hasn't it been done? Why is California going broke? 23 billion dollar deficit cause it ain't possible for no illegal to get signed onto any government program.. yea right. Go sell you bridge to someone else whydonchya? Why if they were serious about illegals not being enrolled on our socialistic gov. run health care plan did they just vote YES on the Heller Amendment.? I know I know. they aren't in fact serious the dummiecrats have every intention of insuring the illegals at the expense of seniors..

Try this, Willow. It might also shake something loose.

Tell me if it helps ya bitch,,

 

[WillowTree]

Geex Louise!

What a mess. More right wing anal retentive behavior.

Willow , you say boarder, I say border, you say po ta to I will say potato .

What are you three years old Willow all you can do is correct people's spelling?
Obviously that is the best you have , because your arguments are all pitiful and prove you got nothing.

As for the rest of you right wing pilers on. LOL




Listen up.

It's apparent you all have no morals. Thus you complain about any kind of health care for anybody else. I'd bet good money that a majority of you doing the bitching are on social security or disability of some kind. Sitting at home all day long bitching on the internet about anything anybody else gets. Selfish and bitter in your small little life's .

As for Charles Krauthammer. I do not give a shit who or what he is. I know he is a immoral nasty man. It's just that simple. Makes it all the worse if he is wheel chair bound cause what do you want to bet that social security disability picked up his medical care for a long while. Or some similiar program. So that makes the man a bigger slime ball than I thought he was. He no doubt has been a beneficiary of the kindness of social programs. ........................... Or he had filthy rich parents.
Yet he would deny people in similar situations the same care he got.
Makes old Krauthammer even more immoral in my eyes.

Boy you right wingers . You all stick your heads in the sands and try to pretend your not immoral. Go ahead and try. I happen to know there is one that knows every lie and immorality in your being.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

 

[wvpeach]

So tell us willow what kind of government program is picking up the tab for your life?

 

[Zoom-boing]

As for Charles Krauthammer. I do not give a shit who or what he is. I know he is a immoral nasty man. It's just that simple. Makes it all the worse if he is wheel chair bound because do you want to bet that social security disability picked up his medical care for a long while. Or some similiar program. So that makes the man a bigger immoral slime ball than I thought he was. He no doubt has been a beneficiary of the kindness of social programs. ........................... Or he had filthy rich parents.
Yet he would deny people in similar situations the same care he got.
Makes old Krauthammer even more immoral in my eyes.
And if he really is that bad off he best rethink his nasty heart, because he may about to meet his God and that will not be pretty for old nasty Krauthammer.

Oh well, if you just know . . . . then that answers everything.

 

[hjmick]

Wow, the Peach really doesn't like you "right-wingers" very much...