5 Founding Fathers' Skepticism About Christianity Would Make Them Unelectable Today

[koshergrl]

So...no source, you say? Just opinion about what you think they thought??

Got it, lol.

 

[Gadawg73]

So...no source, you say? Just opinion about what you think they thought??

Got it, lol.

The Constitution is my source.

And spoken verbatim:

Jefferson: "religous leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." "Religions are all alike. Founded on fables and myths." "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."

Franklin: "LIghthouses are more helpful than any church". "I have found Christian dogma unintelliglble. Early in life I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies"

Madison: "Christian religous bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise".

Adams "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity"

A fool with no eyes needs more. Want it?

Madison led the charge and kicked the asses of the religous Torries of the day as the traitors of the revolution were the conservative right wing fundementalists of that era. They supported the church, the King and the monarchy.
How much more of an education do you need?

 

[Cammmpbell]

So...no source, you say? Just opinion about what you think they thought??

Got it, lol.

It's easy when one is dealing with numbnuts who believe in ancient gods.

 

[koshergrl]

Still waiting for a source that verifies what was stated.

And so far, per usual..nada. Not a thing except prevarication, pontification, deferral and insult.

 

[JakeStarkey]

So...no source, you say? Just opinion about what you think they thought??

Got it, lol.

Opinion based on absolute solid evidence, which makes it fact, koshergirl.

That you can't accept how the Founders thought generally as a group, that is your issue, no one else's.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Still waiting for a source that verifies what was stated.

And so far, per usual..nada. Not a thing except prevarication, pontification, deferral and insult.

You are gibbering, koshergirl. That you can't accept you are wrong is your problem, no one else's.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Still waiting for a source that verifies what was stated.

And so far, per usual..nada. Not a thing except prevarication, pontification, deferral and insult.

You are gibbering, koshergirl. That you can't accept you are wrong is your problem, no one else's.

I just love the way you folks accomodate one another with a one liner but never offer anything worth reading. I think you all work here.

Just curious......how many of those one liners would you estimate you post in a day. I mean all boards and forums, not just this one.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Still waiting for a source that verifies what was stated.

And so far, per usual..nada. Not a thing except prevarication, pontification, deferral and insult.

You are gibbering, koshergirl. That you can't accept you are wrong is your problem, no one else's.

I just love the way you folks accomodate one another with a one liner but never offer anything worth reading. I think you all work here.

Just curious......how many of those one liners would you estimate you post in a day. I mean all boards and forums, not just this one.

All of this has been explained and documented.

That you and koshergirl disagree, for various reasons, means nothing factually.

 

[Cammmpbell]

You are gibbering, koshergirl. That you can't accept you are wrong is your problem, no one else's.

I just love the way you folks accomodate one another with a one liner but never offer anything worth reading. I think you all work here.

Just curious......how many of those one liners would you estimate you post in a day. I mean all boards and forums, not just this one.

All of this has been explained and documented.

That you and koshergirl disagree, for various reasons, means nothing factually.

LOL.............no shit

 

[peach174]

Thomas Jefferson -
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

Franklin -
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Madison -
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

Adams -
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

 

[Cammmpbell]

Thomas Jefferson -
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

Franklin -
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Madison -
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

Adams -
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

Massive bullshit. The forebears believed in a god of nature. That's why they spelled it out in the declaration of independence. DUUUHHH

 

[koshergrl]

You are gibbering, koshergirl. That you can't accept you are wrong is your problem, no one else's.

I just love the way you folks accomodate one another with a one liner but never offer anything worth reading. I think you all work here.

Just curious......how many of those one liners would you estimate you post in a day. I mean all boards and forums, not just this one.

All of this has been explained and documented.

That you and koshergirl disagree, for various reasons, means nothing factually.

WHAT has been explained and documented?

Certainly not your assertion that the founding fathers were *afraid* of religion as much as they were *afraid* of an interfering and oppressive government.

 

[koshergrl]

Thomas Jefferson -
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

Franklin -
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Madison -
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

Adams -
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

Massive bullshit. The forebears believed in a god of nature. That's why they spelled it out in the declaration of independence. DUUUHHH

Sooo...are those quotes lies?

 

[Gadawg73]

On religion the Founders spoke out of both sides of their mouths.
Similar to modern day politicians.
Because the naive and gullible dumb masses want to believe it.
But The Constitution tells the truth: religion is not mentioned and has never and will never be part of our government or the law.
And those of us that have true faith and confidence in our religous beliefs benefit from that. We do not need our religion in government.
Founders sure were brilliant men.

 

[JakeStarkey]

I just love the way you folks accomodate one another with a one liner but never offer anything worth reading. I think you all work here.

Just curious......how many of those one liners would you estimate you post in a day. I mean all boards and forums, not just this one.

All of this has been explained and documented.

That you and koshergirl disagree, for various reasons, means nothing factually.

WHAT has been explained and documented? Certainly not your assertion that the founding fathers were *afraid* of religion as much as they were *afraid* of an interfering and oppressive government.

Over and over and over in this thread and other threads. You have no point.

 

[emilynghiem]

By Rob Boston

Thomas Jefferson believed that a coolly rational form of religion would take root in America. Was he ever wrong.

To hear the Religious Right tell it, men like George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were 18th-century versions of Jerry Falwell in powdered wigs and stockings. Nothing could be further from the truth.

More: 5 Founding Fathers Whose Skepticism About Christianity Would Make Them Unelectable Today | Belief | AlterNet

???

1. First of all secular Constitutionalism HAS INDEED taken over the country, to a fault,
where instead of allowing free expression through Crosses, Prayers, mention of God,
cases of these are banned or prosecuted.

2. Obama HAS been elected DESPITE many people's objections he is not Christian enough or he is too pro-Muslim. I object that he is not Constitutionalist enough, citing his conflicting views of the health care bill and immigration laws as inconsistent.

Still, he got elected!
So that negates this entire article, does it not?

3. Also, the article slants Jefferson's "wall of separation between church and state" as anti-religious freedom, when actually his letter was addressed in the opposite context of DEFENDING the religious practice of a group of Baptists from interference by the State.

Jefferson, Madison and other Founding Fathers are respected for
their CONSTITUTIONAL views and principles, which are indeed
the predominant influence in American politics,
and CAN BE CONSIDERED a political secular religion or belief system.

So as far as I can see, Jefferson was right on these principles as governing humanity.
And that is why his views are respected as a President and Founding Father.

 

[Cammmpbell]

All of this has been explained and documented.

That you and koshergirl disagree, for various reasons, means nothing factually.

WHAT has been explained and documented? Certainly not your assertion that the founding fathers were *afraid* of religion as much as they were *afraid* of an interfering and oppressive government.

Over and over and over in this thread and other threads. You have no point.

One thing for sure.....anybody who believes ancient goat herders held the keys to the kingdom has their head so far up their arse that record setting is a no brainer.

 

[emilynghiem]

Thomas Jefferson -
"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."
--The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.
"God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event."
--Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

Franklin -
"Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshiped.

That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect I meet with them.

As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see;

But I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequence, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and more observed; especially as I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure."
--Benjamin Franklin wrote this in a letter to Ezra Stiles, President of Yale University on March 9, 1790.

Madison -
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

Adams -
"The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made 'bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God' (Isaiah 52:10)."
--Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248.

Massive bullshit. The forebears believed in a god of nature. That's why they spelled it out in the declaration of independence. DUUUHHH

Sooo...are those quotes lies?

RE: God of Nature vs. Divine God in the Bible

What if both Gods are one and the same.
The same God that creates divine laws for the church to administer
also created human nature under natural laws for the state to govern by.

Where is the contradiction in this?

Why can't someone equally believe in the God and divine laws worshipped in churches
and also respect God-given inalienable free will of human nature under natural laws?

DUUUHHH is right.
Big Fat Duh. There is no conflicting in teaching that church and state laws come from the same source of truth, and are just expressed and have authority in different jurisdictions.

 

[emilynghiem]

WHAT has been explained and documented? Certainly not your assertion that the founding fathers were *afraid* of religion as much as they were *afraid* of an interfering and oppressive government.

Over and over and over in this thread and other threads. You have no point.

One thing for sure.....anybody who believes ancient goat herders held the keys to the kingdom has their head so far up their arse that record setting is a no brainer.

Hey Cammmpbell: That's not fair to the ancient goat herders.
Everyone holds the keys to the kingdom.

Human nature is Body/Mind/Spirit
We are physical individuals
We are connected to collective humanity over time and space
And we have relationships between those two levels in our MINDS and Conscience,
connecting our physical experience and decisions in life with our abstract transcendent understanding of society and greater responsibility on this higher level beyond just us.

All religions, laws, philosophies in life, even our government and secular laws
are based on three interactive levels, checking and balancing each other in harmony.

That is the whole "mystery" of the Trinity.

The Buddhists teach this as Buddha/Dharma/Sangha.
The Pagans and naturalists believe in mother/father/child
and Mother Earth/Nature as the Source of all Life.

We all know we need peace and harmony on all these levels.
So we all hold the keys to the kingdom
as part of our human nature and conscience.
These patterns and "laws of nature" are built into all of us,
and are seeking to be realized, no matter what form of expression they take.

 

[Katzndogz]

The letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists was to reassure them that the government would not intrude into their church activities.

The letter itself:

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

Th Jefferson
Jan. 1. 1802.

He closes with prayers to the common father and creator of man.

No doubt Jefferson would take his sword to the liberals of today.