9 out of 10 Americans completely wrong

[Lonestar_logic]

Check out history, ace.

When the gulf between rich and poor becomes to wide? The society collapses.

Almost every time.

All societies collapse almost every time.

Our "federal" government is constitutionally tasked with but a few things to do which are designed to eliminate societies collapse. Not to surprising that they have failed, in glaring fashion, to perform these activities. I put it to you it is this governments lack of focus on doing what they should be doing and instead focusing on issues of morality and wealth redistribution that are the cause of our recent societal downgrade.

1) Monopolies - Our government is tasked with ensuring the people have the opportunity to stand up against monopolies on the things we need and desire, such as food, transportation, health care, jobs, etc...

Here you appear to be focused on the result of monopolies, that of high pay of executives of said monopolies, vs. the failure of government to beat back said monopolies. At issue is the government's collusion in granting monopolies and ignoring others to the detriment of society.

2) copyright - is a right to copy after a reasonable time period, not a law that bans the people from ever copying that it has been changed to.

3) defense - is not occupying nearly every country on the planet

... should I go on?

Two wrongs do not make a right... we shouldn't force corporations to set a particular "high" or "low" salary, that should be done through the job, consumer, and investment markets where investors, customers, and workers can choose on their own. If however all corporations are monopolizing executive wages by colluding on executive salaries, then the investor market should be able to seek relief. Same with labor. If the corporations are colluding on wages for a particular type of employee then it is the job of our government to break them up.

First off..I think we are mostly in agreement about the role of government. Secondly, no where did I post the government should "force" companies to do anything. Changes to the way profit is "divided" could be as easy as changing the tax code. Wanna pay yourself 1000xs what everyone else makes? Fine. Then you get taxed at a 90% rate. That worked during the time of Eisenhower.

And there are other methods to assure good behavior. The government does business with a lot of these firms. There's no need to "force" anyone to do anything.

Who is in charge of changing the tax code? Hmm the government? So in effect the government IS forcing companies to do something via the tax code.

You contradict yourself.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

First off..I think we are mostly in agreement about the role of government. Secondly, no where did I post the government should "force" companies to do anything. Changes to the way profit is "divided" could be as easy as changing the tax code. Wanna pay yourself 1000xs what everyone else makes? Fine. Then you get taxed at a 90% rate. That worked during the time of Eisenhower.

Only 352 individuals who filed their income taxes in 1954 paid a rate of 90%. Yeah, it worked just fine because a ton of wealthy individuals got to avoid a ton of income taxes.

It's not an exaggeration to say that I would prefer the 1950's tax code over the current one any-day.

Do you realize how much wealth the richest 352 Americans have?

The wealthiest 400 Americans have more wealth than half the US population as a whole

?The 400 wealthiest Americans now own more than the ?lower? 150 million Americans put together.? | Real-World Economics Review Blog

So?

Your point is what?

 

[AmazonTania]

Do you realize how much wealth the richest 352 Americans have?

There are 397 Billionaires in this country. They have a combined net worth of $5.4 Trillion. Combined that with the net worth of the Top 50% of Americans today, then it's obviously alot more (too lazy to do the math). If you compare the rates from today to the rates in 1954, you'll learn something interesting.

In 1954, 18,000+ households (out of 54 million households) filed taxes in the Top 50%. This contributed to only 6% of all Federal Income Tax Revenue.

Today, 11.2 million households (out of 121 million households) file their taxes in the Top 50% bracket. This contributes to 97.21% of all Federal Income Tax Revenue.

So, what you would like to have: Only 18,000/54 million individuals paying taxes on 90%, or 11/121 million contributing much more at a lower rate?

 

[numan]

Because as a civilized society we take care of our disabled and elderly. If you want to go back to primitive times, we can take him into the woods and leave him to die on his own, but today, we'd end up in jail for that. My husband has parkinson's, I have arthritis and other problems and we can't continue to handle an adult that disabled. He ripped out several walls in our home. Did you expect us to just let him kill us? He still would have ended up being taken care of by the state, at your expense. And of course, if we took him out into the woods, the state would have us institutionalized and you'd be paying for us instead. What exactly was my other choice? I suppose I could have aborted him, if I'd known he was going to have autism, but I didn't. I suppose I could have been a worse mother and let him wander away and drown as a child in a nearby river as happened to another autistic boy near here. I really don't understand what you want me to do here, please explain it.

Not have other people pay for your child? Can you not do it on your own?

Oh, God, people really are clueless. The only way for Andrew to be taken care of without the help of the taxpayers (which we also are) is for us to kill him and then ourselves. We're not wealthy. We are middle class and we have another autistic child as well. I'm not working, my job was sent to India. The state will not provide care for him in our home, I tried. Now that he's out of our home, they provide a psychiatrist, a physical therapist, everything the wouldn't provide while he was in our home. He's much better off and happier. He comes to visit us now twice a week and even that is almost too much for us. How many times do I have to say, my husband has Parkinson's and I have arthritis. My son is 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. He has the mind of a toddler. When a toddler throws a temper tantrum, it's not big deal, when that toddler is as big as my son, yes, it's a big deal. It's really, really sad, but people on here make me actually consider doing it. Killing myself and my child just so we won't be a burden on society. I've always paid my way before. ALWAYS. I had my first job at 7 years old when I was paid a nickle for taking care of the little boy next door so his mom could get some work done. You have no idea how much this hurts. Your attitude makes it that much worse. I'm sorry, really I am. I have no idea what else to do. Please tell me. How do I make this right? Do I kill my child and myself so that we won't be a burden on society? Is that what we've become? What is my other choice? Please tell me because I'm in tears now and I really don't know what to do. Oh God it's worse, if I do this I have to kill my entire family. My husband has Parkinson's, he can't take care of himself and my oldest son is also autistic so he can't take care of himself either. A triple murder and a homicide, I think I'm gonna spend eternity in hell but then again, it won't be that different from here, will it?

Your story makes me very sad -- and it is only a very small part of the ocean of grief that flows through a profoundly corrupt America.

The people who responded to you are not just clueless -- they are deeply evil and disgusting sub-humans. They show just how satanically vile, callous, smug, and corrupt people become when they give their souls to the idolatry of individualism.

They are filth.
.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Hate to bust your bubble, but people with billions don't bother with online brokerage accounts, they own the brokerages and the investment banks.

What does any of that have to do with your ability to increase your net worth?



IBID
.

Where did I ever say "make millions" The premise here is that rich people are somehow preventing others from increasing their net worth and you have yet to tell me how they do that exactly.

I know a lot of poor people that would disagree with you on this point.

And what are they doing to improve their situation other than blaming "rich" people?

I don't think we are on the same wavelength. I'm not arguing the rich are preventing the poor and lower middle class from increasing their net worth. Of course there is some increase, our economy has grown significantly over the last 30 year, however it is the wealthy that has got the lion's share of that growth. The result being the wealthy has increased their share of pie and that share is continuing to grow which is not healthy for the country.

Claiming that the situation exist because the poor like being poor is irrational.

Look I'm not a 1 percenter, but I'm working on it. My wealth increases each year and the main reason is because I risk my own capital to purchase land, cattle, stock for my gun shop and hire employees etc... So why shouldn't benefit from the risk?

And as for being healthy for the country. I paid more taxes this past year than most people earn in a year. The year before I had to pay over 30 grand just in penalties for failing to claim some offshore assets.

I pay my share of taxes and then some!

 

[RKMBrown]

not have other people pay for your child? Can you not do it on your own?

oh, god, people really are clueless. The only way for andrew to be taken care of without the help of the taxpayers (which we also are) is for us to kill him and then ourselves. We're not wealthy. We are middle class and we have another autistic child as well. I'm not working, my job was sent to india. The state will not provide care for him in our home, i tried. Now that he's out of our home, they provide a psychiatrist, a physical therapist, everything the wouldn't provide while he was in our home. He's much better off and happier. He comes to visit us now twice a week and even that is almost too much for us. How many times do i have to say, my husband has parkinson's and i have arthritis. My son is 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds. He has the mind of a toddler. When a toddler throws a temper tantrum, it's not big deal, when that toddler is as big as my son, yes, it's a big deal. It's really, really sad, but people on here make me actually consider doing it. Killing myself and my child just so we won't be a burden on society. I've always paid my way before. Always. I had my first job at 7 years old when i was paid a nickle for taking care of the little boy next door so his mom could get some work done. You have no idea how much this hurts. Your attitude makes it that much worse. I'm sorry, really i am. I have no idea what else to do. Please tell me. How do i make this right? Do i kill my child and myself so that we won't be a burden on society? Is that what we've become? What is my other choice? Please tell me because i'm in tears now and i really don't know what to do. Oh god it's worse, if i do this i have to kill my entire family. My husband has parkinson's, he can't take care of himself and my oldest son is also autistic so he can't take care of himself either. A triple murder and a homicide, i think i'm gonna spend eternity in hell but then again, it won't be that different from here, will it?

your story makes me very sad -- and it is only a very small part of the ocean of grief that flows through a profoundly corrupt america.

The people who responded to you are not just clueless -- they are deeply evil and disgusting sub-humans. They show just how satanically vile, callous, smug, and corrupt people become when they give their souls to the idolatry of individualism.

They are filth.
.

wow just wow

 

[numan]

Here's a better analogy. We both work a 40 hour week. You get a paycheck of $10,000,000 and I get a paycheck of $10,000. We both work for the same company. Do you really believe you deserve 1000 times more money than me, regardless of our jobs?

Yes.

If people who say such things are not being just idiotically smug and cheeky, they richly deserve to be put in a tumbril and taken to the guillotine. They don't deserve to live in human society.
.

 

[RKMBrown]

Donate all your income and assets to the altar of numan's choosing or you are a clueless, deeply evil, disgusting sub-human, satanically vile, callous, smug, and corrupt that gives your soul to the idolatry of individualism. Wow!

 

[Againsheila]

We have to stop thinking like this.

A guy who comes into a company and gets a top slot in it, because he happens to belong to the same fraternity has the rest of the "old boys" SHOULD NOT be entitled to 300% more in pay then someone actually doing the work to make the profit.

Add in that most corporations DEPEND on the taxes we pay to keep and maintain their enterprise.

There has to be some parity in this system.

If there is not..it will definitely collapse.

So if I want to make my buddy a rich Executive in my company I should be stopped by the federal government? WOW What's next forcing me to hire Obama's buddies as rich Executives in my company? Or should we just have a law that makes companies pay everyone the same wage?

Here's one for you... If we all make the exact same paycheck what will the poverty rate be? 100%?

If you watched the video, you'd know no one expects us to make the same paycheck. But no one expects only the wealthy to benefit from increased productivity either.

 

[AmazonTania]

No, the issue here is that 20% of our people own 83% of our wealth. You can't convince me that 80% of our people aren't working.

So if I have a twenty in my pocket and you have a nothing in your pocket that means I have all of our wealth so someone should come to my house and cut it in half and give it to you then the wealth will be evenly distributed. Problem solved right?

Nope. My answer to that is I'll just stop working hard enough to have that extra twenty in my pocket, we'll get the money from some other rich guy who has not figured out just how evil he is to be earning more than minimum wage in this country.

Here's a better analogy. We both work a 40 hour week. You get a paycheck of $10,000,000 and I get a paycheck of $10,000. We both work for the same company. Do you really believe you deserve 1000 times more money than me, regardless of our jobs?

If the point of this analogy is to demonstrate that life isn't fair, I have news for you:

It isn't.

 

[AmazonTania]

If you watched the video, you'd know no one expects us to make the same paycheck. But no one expects only the wealthy to benefit from increased productivity either.

So only the wealthy benefit from increased productivity? This is news to a lot of consumers in the economy, who are grateful that their favorite retailers and chain stores are open and available on the weekends. Even on holidays.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but that is an example of increased productivity. And something to remember the next time you walk into a shop on Christmas Eve to do your last minute Christmas shopping and you're surprised that the store is still open.

 

[Flopper]

There is no pie.

Wealth is not finite. Wealth is not a zero sum game.

While what you say is correct... most entities have to live within budget constraints. Thus, once you choose to work for the "man" you are limited to the "man's" budget. Thus, envy can ensue if someone has a larger piece of that particular budget. Course, if you did something to increase the size of the man's pie you'd probably get paid a lot more.

True. When workers see their hours and raises cut while top management rakes in millions they don't quit their job because they need it and other employers are doing the same thing. The result is lose of enthusiasm for the job, doing only what's required. American labor is seen as a necessary evil by top management, a cost to be cut. Loyalty has been determined to be irrelevant. Employers don't give a damn about their employees and their employees feel the same way about them.

 

[numan]

Donate all your income and assets to the altar of numan's choosing or you are a clueless, deeply evil, disgusting sub-human, satanically vile, callous, smug, and corrupt that gives your soul to the idolatry of individualism. Wow!

I will only take cash.

I wouldn't trust a check from any of you devil-worshippers.
.

 

[PaulS1950]

When I felt that I was being taken for granted at work I started my first business. I didn't know much and it didn't work out but I learned a lot about what not to do. My second business taught me a lot more about how to make a business work and it was successful until I had to sell it to pay for a divorce - the wife was a drug addict. My third business was also successful for just under twenty years.
Anyone can start a business. You need two things:
1. a product or service that people want.
2. a means to market that product or sevice to a level that will keep your business growing.

You also need to know how to say "no" when you are too busy in a way that doesn't ruin your business's reputation.
Once you have those things then you need to keep records, pay taxes, and stay on top of your business all at the same time.
It requires that you take a risk. Most people don't want to risk what they have to get more because they are affraid of failure or more often, success. It is easier to sit and whine about what others have done than it is to get up off your dead ass and do something for yourself.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

If you watched the video, you'd know no one expects us to make the same paycheck. But no one expects only the wealthy to benefit from increased productivity either.

So only the wealthy benefit from increased productivity? This is news to a lot of consumers in the economy, who are grateful that their favorite retailers and chain stores are open and available on the weekends. Even on holidays.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but that is an example of increased productivity. And something to remember the next time you walk into a shop on Christmas Eve to do your last minute Christmas shopping and you're surprised that the store is still open.

She thinks only the wealthy benefit from increased productivity. Nevermind the employees that have the chance to earn more money for their contribution as well as those that you have pointed out.

 

[numan]

Here's a better analogy. We both work a 40 hour week. You get a paycheck of $10,000,000 and I get a paycheck of $10,000. We both work for the same company. Do you really believe you deserve 1000 times more money than me, regardless of our jobs?

If the point of this analogy is to demonstrate that life isn't fair, I have news for you:

It isn't.

Life would be a lot fairer if the insanely individualistic devil-worshippers were given pre-frontal lobotomies.

Of course, it wouldn't be fair to them --

-- but then, life isn't fair, is it?
.

 

[Againsheila]

So if I have a twenty in my pocket and you have a nothing in your pocket that means I have all of our wealth so someone should come to my house and cut it in half and give it to you then the wealth will be evenly distributed. Problem solved right?

Nope. My answer to that is I'll just stop working hard enough to have that extra twenty in my pocket, we'll get the money from some other rich guy who has not figured out just how evil he is to be earning more than minimum wage in this country.

Here's a better analogy. We both work a 40 hour week. You get a paycheck of $10,000,000 and I get a paycheck of $10,000. We both work for the same company. Do you really believe you deserve 1000 times more money than me, regardless of our jobs?

If the point of this analogy is to demonstrate that life isn't fair, I have news for you:

It isn't.

Yeah, there's unfair and then there is really unfair, taking advantage of, no morals unfair.

 

[AmazonTania]

Life would be a lot fairer if the insanely individualistic devil-worshippers were given pre-frontal lobotomies.

Of course, it wouldn't be fair to them --

-- but then, life isn't fair, is it?
.

Naturally, one would believe it would be fair if misunderstood happened due to the sick intentions of another, rather than someone's inability to make things happen for themselves.

 

[AmazonTania]

Yeah, there's unfair and then there is really unfair, taking advantage of, no morals unfair.

Did anyone put a gun to your head, a knife to your throat, or a grenade down your pants perhaps? As I keep saying over and over, business is not a one way street and capitalism involves voluntary exchange between two parties. If you except payment for services for only $10,000 a year voluntarily then there was no way you were exploited.

After all, you could have declined the offer. The simple fact that you didn't means you were offered the best possible opportunity at that time. The fact that you haven't quit means you haven't found the best possible alternative. You wouldn't be better off if your job disappeared tomorrow.

Now if your marketable skills are so low that your skills are only worth $10,000, you have a problem. Seeing the world as unfair essentially does nothing. Rather than just stating the obvious, you would be better off figuring out what to do about your lack of human capital.

 

[Againsheila]

Yeah, there's unfair and then there is really unfair, taking advantage of, no morals unfair.

Did anyone put a gun to your head, a knife to your throat, or a grenade down your pants perhaps? As I keep saying over and over, business is not a one way street and capitalism involves voluntary exchange between two parties. If you except payment for services for only $10,000 a year voluntarily then there was no way you were exploited.

After all, you could have declined the offer. The simple fact that you didn't means you were offered the best possible opportunity at that time. The fact that you haven't quit means you haven't found the best possible alternative. You wouldn't be better off if your job disappeared tomorrow.

Now if your marketable skills are so low that your skills are only worth $10,000, you have a problem. Seeing the world as unfair essentially does nothing. Rather than just stating the obvious, you would be better off figuring out what to do about your lack of human capital.

When workers are a dime a dozen, they are all underpaid. That doesn't mean their work is worth less, only that people who take advantage pay less. When the state makes up for the pay difference with food stamps and welfare, then there is something wrong, the taxpayers are subsidizing the greedy.