Zone1 A christian-atheist compromise?

[john54]

Like all myths religion that is not based on philosophy ( the judgemental western religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam also called the Abrahamic religions reflecting their tribal origins. ) will fade away like other myths. I did not include the other Abrahamic religions because they are less confrontational. ( Baha'i Faith, Yezidi, Druze, Samaritan and Rastafari. )

Yes, I agree. Religious practices with philosophical relevance, or some other observable, ideally measurable positive effect on the human mind, those can maintain their relevance going into adulthood. The abrahamic religions are unfortunately something of a spiritual dead-end, placing minimal emphasis on developing virtue, and instead deferring responsibility and encouraging followers to rely on some one else in a highly irresponsible way.

I think letting go of all of the traditions associated with Christianity may not be necessary and it's important to offer Christians, Muslims, and Jews some sort of acceptable off-ramp whereby they can preserve their traditions in childrens' song and enchanted folktales, to continue their love for these ancient figures, but as they take the form of beloved mythical characters like Kringle etc. I think at some point Christians may come around to ideas like this.

 

[Stann]

Yes, I agree. Religious practices with philosophical relevance, or some other observable, ideally measurable positive effect on the human mind, those can maintain their relevance going into adulthood. The abrahamic religions are unfortunately something of a spiritual dead-end, placing minimal emphasis on developing virtue, and instead deferring responsibility and encouraging followers to rely on some one else in a highly irresponsible way.

I think letting go of all of the traditions associated with Christianity may not be necessary and it's important to offer Christians, Muslims, and Jews some sort of acceptable off-ramp whereby they can preserve their traditions in childrens' song and enchanted folktales, to continue their love for these ancient figures, but as they take the form of beloved mythical characters like Kringle etc. I think at some point Christians may come around to ideas like this.

They simply aren't workable on the modern age.

 

[Baron Von Murderpaws]

I think you must have missed out. Childhood is the time for wonder and awe. Of course to continue believing in myths as an adult isn't healthy, which is what I find concerning about Christians as they are in their current state. But all it would take to preserve their traditions is to switch from "religion" to "myth," and just like that, 'the adventures of jesus' could become a celebrated folktale for all. I still think with some convincing Christians might be willing to get in on this...

Children need to be taught the truth, not lies.
When you are taught lies, you grow up and find out they ARE lies......then you're let down, and start not to trust anything anyone says. And nobody trusted YOU enough to tell you the truth and make up your OWN happiness and fantasies.

Adults who were told the truth and allowed to make up their own fantasies when children are better off, because although they KNOW the truth, they CHOOSE to want to believe in certain fantasies. Which is the way it should be, because then you know for a FACT, what is REAL and what is FAKE........and you don't have to have mental anquish about it in adulthood trying to figure out what the hell is what.

 

[ding]

Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to honor age-old christian traditions while still allowing ourselves to grow up and let go of the myths and legends of our intellectual and spiritual adolescence?

I'm no fan of uniformity. Neither was Darwin for that matter. God loves diversity. He created it.

 

[ding]

They simply aren't workable on the modern age.

Successful behaviors are workable in any age. Giving thanks and praise (i.e. worshiping the Creator instead of the created), being reflective (i.e. contemplation, confession and forgiveness), meditation (i.e. prayer and listening) and treating every act as a sacred act will always produce superior results in all ages.

 

[ding]

Literally it is a middle ground, since atheists teaching their kids christianity, even in the context of it being myth, and christians keeping their traditions while switching from "religion" to "myth" would be both sides reaching out pretty far toward eachother. Do you have a different middleground to offer?

Why does there need to be a middle ground? Objective truth is arrived at through a conflict and confusion process. Diversity of thought is key to that process. Bad things usually happen when everyone believes the same thing because there are no checks and balances in place.

 

[ding]

The abrahamic religions are unfortunately something of a spiritual dead-end, placing minimal emphasis on developing virtue, and instead deferring responsibility and encouraging followers to rely on some one else in a highly irresponsible way.

I couldn't disagree more. Atheism is a spiritual dead end and an intellectual dead end as well. It requires no intellect at all to believe in nothing. In fact, relative to religion atheism offers no functional advantages at all.

 

[john54]

Children need to be taught the truth, not lies.
When you are taught lies, you grow up and find out they ARE lies......then you're let down, and start not to trust anything anyone says. And nobody trusted YOU enough to tell you the truth and make up your OWN happiness and fantasies.

Adults who were told the truth and allowed to make up their own fantasies when children are better off, because although they KNOW the truth, they CHOOSE to want to believe in certain fantasies. Which is the way it should be, because then you know for a FACT, what is REAL and what is FAKE........and you don't have to have mental anquish about it in adulthood trying to figure out what the hell is what.

Well you may be right, or it may be a person to person thing. I have fond memories of hearing thumping upstairs and thinking it was Santa, and seeing the cookie and milk half-eaten, and the differently-wrapped presents with a note from Santa....it was amazing. Somehow it didn't bother me when I learned it was all my dad. It still doesn't. Could it have influenced my thinking in my developing years and caused some negative effects down the line? Maybe. But I mean, I turned out atheist, I do my own thinking and research. If there were downstream effects of believing in magic once, they're probably subtle at least.

 

[expat_panama]

It's always been the ego of Man to believe that everything that can be known, is known. Imagine 200 years ago a citizen experiencing a computer, realising man on the moon, seeing a fighter jet fly by or a missile. Back then they had all the answers too, they were a modern industrial age society. It is this ego that prevents some from appreciating just how.little we know, how primitive we are to the generations beyond ours, let alone theology.

From what I can see it's a spiritual problem. It's not lack of information, or the fault of a misconception, what I'm seeing is that it's an infirmity of the necessary humility before reality.

The old stereotype is the Bible thumpin' bigot spouting his orthodoxy & quoting scripture, but the reality is all those on these threads who either call themselves atheists or theists can be folks who just LOVE to spout out the TRUTH and then sink into snarky ridicule. It's a sickness. The only way to learn is to occasionally say "please help me out on understanding this" or "you've made a good point and I may be mistaken". People who can't show the humility needed to say something like that are stunted and suffer from an arrested development

 

[john54]

Successful behaviors are workable in any age. Giving thanks and praise (i.e. worshiping the Creator instead of the created), being reflective (i.e. contemplation, confession and forgiveness), meditation (i.e. prayer and listening) and treating every act as a sacred act will always produce superior results in all ages.

Giving thanks and praise (where appropriate), reflecting, meditating and maybe even yeah, treating everything as sacred are good virtues to practice...but if it's all done in a context of absolving yourself of responsibility and relying on someone else like a God or a Jesus, your spirituality is still immature. All of those virtuous practices you mentioned work best when done with a sense of personal accountability, personal responsibility, with a sense that your own actions have consequences. With a sense that ultimately we're on our own to wipe our own metaphorical butts.

As a story to comfort or spook kids into behaving, God could be effective for a time...and could be part of a sort of training-wheels-for-adult-thinking, maybe. At some point it's good to grow up though.

 

[shockedcanadian]

From what I can see it's a spiritual problem. It's not lack of information, or the fault of a misconception, what I'm seeing is that it's an infirmity of the necessary humility before reality.

The old stereotype is the Bible thumpin' bigot spouting his orthodoxy & quoting scripture, but the reality is all those on these threads who either call themselves atheists or theists can be folks who just LOVE to spout out the TRUTH and then sink into snarky ridicule. It's a sickness. The only way to learn is to occasionally say "please help me out on understanding this" or "you've made a good point and I may be mistaken". People who can't show the humility needed to say something like that are stunted and suffer from an arrested development

The bible thumpers turned me away from religion. The first person to really influence me was my grandfather when he gave me a bible, calmly told me a story or two. Peaked my interest. A co-worker believed in God, but not Christ. Ironically his discussions influenced me as well.

From there it was Billy Graham and Ravi Zacharias. These guys didn't ram God down your throat, they spoke about kindness, forgiveness, the power of Faith.

The more I listened and considered our place in the universe the easier it was to embrace it.

 

[ding]

Giving thanks and praise (where appropriate), reflecting, meditating and maybe even yeah, treating everything as sacred are good virtues to practice...but if it's all done in a context of absolving yourself of responsibility and relying on someone else like a God or a Jesus, your spirituality is still immature. All of those virtuous practices you mentioned work best when done with a sense of personal accountability, personal responsibility, with a sense that your own actions have consequences. With a sense that ultimately we're on our own to wipe our own metaphorical butts.

As a story to comfort or spook kids into behaving, God could be effective for a time...and could be part of a sort of training-wheels-for-adult-thinking, maybe. At some point it's good to grow up though.

In the religious life those things are never done in the context of absolving responsibility. In fact, it's the exact opposite of that. Religion fosters an internal locus of control. That I am in control of my destiny. That I can learn from my mistakes. But that doesn't mean we are alone. It only means we are accountable.

I wouldn't follow your interpretation of religion either.

William James said, "when all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill."

 

[Stann]

Children need to be taught the truth, not lies.
When you are taught lies, you grow up and find out they ARE lies......then you're let down, and start not to trust anything anyone says. And nobody trusted YOU enough to tell you the truth and make up your OWN happiness and fantasies.

Adults who were told the truth and allowed to make up their own fantasies when children are better off, because although they KNOW the truth, they CHOOSE to want to believe in certain fantasies. Which is the way it should be, because then you know for a FACT, what is REAL and what is FAKE........and you don't have to have mental anquish about it in adulthood trying to figure out what the hell is what.

I agree the lies that created religion should have died out centuries ago. It's a crime that they didn't.

 

[ding]

I agree the lies that created religion should have died out centuries ago. It's a crime that they didn't.

Which lies were those?

 

[DudleySmith]

As is, only Christians can enjoy Christianity,

Fake news. The establishment clause for one was put there by the fundamentalists who invented it in the 1600's, and of course the charities and laws have also been extremely beneficial to all people when compared to any other religion that had a large influence on culture.

 

[DudleySmith]

On any middle ground, wouldn't christians also be trying to convert non believers? Let the truth prevail

Christianity is an evangelical religion, yes,. So what? Why does that annoy anybody except those who feel inferior or guilty about something? It's the Evul Fundies who maintain free will as a basic principle of faith.

 

[DudleySmith]

Which lies were those?

The ones they keep repeating, no matter how mamy times they keep bringing them up.

 

[DudleySmith]

I must have been born a genius, as I never believed in any of that stuff, even though the adults would continually try and get me TO believe it all. It never made sense to me. And Santa? Thats the stuff horror movies are made from..........some perv that can SEE you anytime he wants? Who keeps track of what you do and say in your life, and rewards or punishes you according to HIS whims??? Sounds like a dictatorship government to me!!

lol narcissism means one gets to pull all kinds of imaginary autobiographies out of their asses.

 

[DudleySmith]

I agree the lies that created religion should have died out centuries ago. It's a crime that they didn't.

Aw, did the nuns make you feel bad about being a selfish mindless brat? Oh the horrors ....

 

[john54]

In the religious life those things are never done in the context of absolving responsibility. In fact, it's the exact opposite of that. Religion fosters an internal locus of control. That I am in control of my destiny. That I can learn from my mistakes. But that doesn't mean we are alone. It only means we are accountable.

I wouldn't follow your interpretation of religion either.

Again, belief in a God who is there with you holding your hand, perhaps frowning when you do bad, patting your head or nodding when you do good, could be training wheels for kids to learn to start practicing virtue, just like with Santa and his naughty list.

Like how cars will look like funny-faced creatures to some kids, you can misinterpret the universe as being like some creature, and it may make you feel less alone, like someone else is watching over things, and like if you warm up enough to that person he'll reward you. But then you lose the chance to feel secure in your aloneness, to do your part to work towards good in a world whose destiny is now in the hands of us humans, and to progress beyond the need to kiss up to others and to gain a deeper self-reliance.