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Be real. If, for three years, you were a follower of a man who kept all the Commandment and who took good care of his followers, when you took his place, would you begin killing people?But if the idea of going deep is only to swallow the tales and not question them, how deep are you really going? Isn't it deeper to recognize them more as jolly folklore abd leave it at that, and to explore the depths of the human spirit in a more secular context?
It was actually the second time I read Acts 5 that it really occurred to me, not the first time, but the other possibility like I said was that Peter and co thought, perhaps mistakenly, that they were filled with the holy spirit and that God wanted them to kill the couple.Be real. If, for three years, you were a follower of a man who kept all the Commandment and who took good care of his followers, when you took his place, would you begin killing people?
If your answer is, certainly you would, you have a point. If your answer is ME!?! No I NEVER would, then why is it the first and foremost thought that comes into your mind about someone else?
God would not want me to kill. Period. Nor would He want truth hidden. Let's not defame God.If You and your friends killed a couple and no one else saw it, and you were pretty sure God had wanted you to kill them
Consider for a moment, just consider, how vast the universe is. Really visualize it, flying out into the darkness. Past the other planets, the billions of stars, the Milky Way, the comets. The thought of a creator can be challenging, the other explanations fail considerably in convincing me. We are a tiny speck, our entire planet. We originated from somewhere, it can't be anything less.I have a simple suggestion for a "middle-ground" on which atheists and christians might reach some compromise.
As it is, atheists have no interest in being christians, let alone in teaching christianity to their children, and christians have no interest in giving up christianity and want it to still be passed down the generations. So what if we agreed to all tell our kids stories of god and christian tales, to enchant youngsters in the magic of it all, but then tell them when they're old enough that god and the biblical legends are myths - but myths that they can one day teach to their children. It's true that Christianity would no longer be a religion, but it would join the ranks of beloved children's folklore alongside Kris Kringle and his slay, the storks who deliver babies, the sandman who visits us in our dreams and the like. While Christianity is dying out, notice how these traditional children's tales remain told, and cherished, from generation to generation.
Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to honor age-old christian traditions while still allowing ourselves to grow up and let go of the myths and legends of our intellectual and spiritual adolescence? I understand that the religion elements might be hard to let go of for some, but just imagine some day having "the talk" with your kid when you tell them the truth about god and they roll their eyes and say, "I knew he wasn't real, dad!" and forgive you for your trickery because of the magic you instilled in their heart. This I think could be a cool thing. Give it a chance?
It's always been the ego of Man to believe that everything that can be known, is known. Imagine 200 years ago a citizen experiencing a computer, realising man on the moon, seeing a fighter jet fly by or a missile. Back then they had all the answers too, they were a modern industrial age society. It is this ego that prevents some from appreciating just how.little we know, how primitive we are to the generations beyond ours, let alone theology.Let's first remember Arthur C. Clarke's 3rd law: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." That's a reality that explains why we can experience magic in our daily lives, it's the fact that we really can't understand everything. A second thing to consider is how much of our supposed differences are in fact merey differences in how we word things, not differences in our actual understandings. You could call me a "theist" if u want. Or not. Names & labels are not as useful as many think.
I'd like very much to understand what u mean by "atheist". What I need to know is what u DO believe, not what u don't believe. Do u or do u not believe in an absolute objective truth --I asking if one person can walk up to something and say "that is true", will others --independently-- be found doing the same? Or are u of the understanding a that anyone's idea of truth is completely different from anyone else's, it's all personal.
So how are u w/ true/false, good/bad, right/wrong, are they absolute or personal?
I think the best compromise is:I have a simple suggestion for a "middle-ground" on which atheists and christians might reach some compromise.
As it is, atheists have no interest in being christians, let alone in teaching christianity to their children, and christians have no interest in giving up christianity and want it to still be passed down the generations. So what if we agreed to all tell our kids stories of god and christian tales, to enchant youngsters in the magic of it all, but then tell them when they're old enough that god and the biblical legends are myths - but myths that they can one day teach to their children. It's true that Christianity would no longer be a religion, but it would join the ranks of beloved children's folklore alongside Kris Kringle and his slay, the storks who deliver babies, the sandman who visits us in our dreams and the like. While Christianity is dying out, notice how these traditional children's tales remain told, and cherished, from generation to generation.
Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to honor age-old christian traditions while still allowing ourselves to grow up and let go of the myths and legends of our intellectual and spiritual adolescence? I understand that the religion elements might be hard to let go of for some, but just imagine some day having "the talk" with your kid when you tell them the truth about god and they roll their eyes and say, "I knew he wasn't real, dad!" and forgive you for your trickery because of the magic you instilled in their heart. This I think could be a cool thing. Give it a chance?
Yes, a respect for each others freedom to worship how, where, or what they may.I think the best compromise is:
I, as a Christian, will not presume to judge the state of your soul or punish you in any way for saying you don't believe. I won't call you names or use ugly characterizations to describe you. I won't require you to take religious instruction if you don't want it and I won't require you to participate in religious activities if you don't want to.
You, as an Atheist, will allow me my beliefs, won't call me names or use ugly characterizations to describe me. You will allow the Christians in your community to worship in peace and enjoy their celebrations, festivals, traditions in the public sphere within reason.
We do that, and there will be peace, harmony, and everybody can be friends.
And all I'm saying is why not keep all these traditions but change how you pass them on, to be folktales that children can appreciate. The magic of Jesus christ and his many stories doesn't have to die out, consider how children will always love these stories and can tell them to their children and in this way your traditions will be passed on. I don't see what's wrong with this.Yes, a respect for each others freedom to worship how, where, or what they may.
Or not worship at all if that is their choice.Yes, a respect for each others freedom to worship how, where, or what they may.
What's wrong with it is it belittles the faith to a fairytale.And all I'm saying is why not keep all these traditions but change how you pass them on, to be folktales that children can appreciate. The magic of Jesus christ and his many stories doesn't have to die out, consider how children will always love these stories and can tell them to their children and in this way your traditions will be passed on. I don't see what's wrong with this.
Uh do you know how much time, attention, love, money etc 'Santa' receives every year? I hardly think 'belittle' is the right word for a folktale that would capture the hearts of millions of children worldwide.What's wrong with it is it belittles the faith to a fairytale.
We already pass our religion onto our children, not as a fairytale but as truth. We already have that right. We have the freedom to worship as we please already. What makes you think we even want a compromise of our freedom? Many of us respect and believe that the atheist also has the right to not believe in any deity and religion. We each already have what we want. The compromise you suggest tries to belittle the truthfulness of our faith to a fairytale. We don't like giving up that core tenet of our faith. It is a one sided compromise. In America we have all that we could hope for in being able to worship how we wish and not compromising our belief in a true and living God who loves and looks after us. My vote is a big thumbs down on your suggested compromise. I only see it as a one sided compromise and don't see any compromise on the side of atheism. How about relegating atheism to a fairytale since you believe in it so much and have every atheist only teach their children that it is a fairytale?Uh do you know how much time, attention, love, money etc 'Santa' receives every year? I hardly think 'belittle' is the right word for a folktale that would capture the hearts of millions of children worldwide.
Why not just leave it to individual parents to choose what they want to teach their children about matters of faith, and leave it to the individual to believe what he or she believes, knows, trusts, embraces?And all I'm saying is why not keep all these traditions but change how you pass them on, to be folktales that children can appreciate. The magic of Jesus christ and his many stories doesn't have to die out, consider how children will always love these stories and can tell them to their children and in this way your traditions will be passed on. I don't see what's wrong with this.
Well I'm sorry you're so adamantly against my proposal. My understanding had been that Christians' goal, and the goal of Christianity, was to spread and be adopted by everyone -- not just current Christians - worldwide but it sounds like you want it to be a private thing? I would just ask that you consider whether the 'format' in which it is offered is much of the reason why so many atheists reject Christianity. If you could accept making just some minor changes to it, to have it be geared towards children as a beloved children's tale, I think it would vibe well with a lot of atheists who might even be willing to become 'christians' on the holidays for the joy of the magic it would bring their kids. Accept or reject it, but I think it's a pretty good deal. Ball's in your court.We already pass our religion onto our children, not as a fairytale but as truth. We already have that right. We have the freedom to worship as we please already. What makes you think we even want a compromise of our freedom? Many of us respect and believe that the atheist also has the right to not believe in any deity and religion. We each already have what we want. The compromise you suggest tries to belittle the truthfulness of our faith to a fairytale. We don't like giving up that core tenet of our faith. It is a one sided compromise. In America we have all that we could hope for in being able to worship how we wish and not compromising our belief in a true and living God who loves and looks after us. My vote is a big thumbs down on your suggested compromise. I only see it as a one sided compromise and don't see any compromise on the side of atheism. How about relegating atheism to a fairytale since you believe in it so much and have every atheist only teach their children that it is a fairytale?
It is the goal of Christ to have his followers spread the message of Christianity. However, Christ is also a being who believes in free will and would not force his gospel onto anyone. We all have our free will to choose. Most if not all Christians believe that the parents have the right and authority to teach their children and to protect them from what they believe to be false teachings until they come across such teachings in society. We believe that atheists also have that right to teach their children what they believe is true and to protect them from what they believe is false. I personally served a mission for my church and respected the wishes of those who did not want to hear our Christian message. We respected the rights of parents in regard to their children and never sought out children to teach. We believe it is up to the individual who is of age to choose what they wish to believe. I don't really see that allowing atheist children to hear the message of Christ labeled as fable would help them believe. In my faith we believe that eventually all mankind will have the opportunity to hear the message of the gospel and have the choice to either accept it or not. Those who have died without hearing the message also will be able to hear the message.Well I'm sorry you're so adamantly against my proposal. My understanding had been that Christians' goal, and the goal of Christianity, was to spread and be adopted by everyone -- not just current Christians - worldwide but it sounds like you want it to be a private thing? I would just ask that you consider whether the 'format' in which it is offered is much of the reason why so many atheists reject Christianity. If you could accept making just some minor changes to it, to have it be geared towards children as a beloved children's tale, I think it would vibe well with a lot of atheists who might even be willing to become 'christians' on the holidays for the joy of the magic it would bring their kids. Accept or reject it, but I think it's a pretty good deal. Ball's in your court.
Why not just leave it to individual parents to choose what they want to teach their children about matters of faith, and leave it to the individual to believe what he or she believes, knows, trusts, embraces?
I have long sanctioned allowing children to grow up with fairy tales and children's fantasy books as they spur the imagination and unlock the creative instincts within us. Nobody has to decide when to tell the kids that these are actually made up stories. Every kid figures that out all by himself or herself. Likewise when they read real histories written for children, they don't discard those people as fantasy or made up characters. And as they grow older they understand that while their first knowledge of these people was for children and there is much more to it, it doesn't have to be explained to them the difference between real and imaginary.
I do think most Christians will object to any suggestion that they teach their children that the historical Jesus of Nazareth and the living God is no different than Santa Claus or Pinnocchio at any age.
But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.It is the goal of Christ to have his followers spread the message of Christianity. However, Christ is also a being who believes in free will and would not force his gospel onto anyone. We all have our free will to choose. Most if not all Christians believe that the parents have the right and authority to teach their children and to protect them from what they believe to be false teachings until they come across such teachings in society. We believe that atheists also have that right to teach their children what they believe is true and to protect them from what they believe is false. I personally served a mission for my church and respected the wishes of those who did not want to hear our Christian message. We respected the rights of parents in regard to their children and never sought out children to teach. We believe it is up to the individual who is of age to choose what they wish to believe. I don't really see that allowing atheist children to hear the message of Christ labeled as fable would help them believe. In my faith we believe that eventually all mankind will have the opportunity to hear the message of the gospel and have the choice to either accept it or not. Those who have died without hearing the message also will be able to hear the message.
1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
So, I simply do not find it all that attractive to have the gospel preached as a fairytale especially since we already have the right teach the gospel freely to those who are of age to make their own decisions and we can teach it how we believe it, as truth.
Honestly John, I suspect you really are just having an intellectual exercise intended to be harmless here. But it would be easy to interpret your argument as a kind of Atheist 'grooming' or attempt to destroy the faith of the young. I do not support that at all.But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.
Luke 18:16
Maybe you don't find it attractive but you have to acknowledge how tailored to children most biblical tales already are? I don't think you're realizing how little would change if christianity just went from 'faith' to 'beloved folktale.' Would it really be all that different whether we're recounting tales of talking to the dead, or of a spirit that wishes good for us, or of turning water to wine - why not make it grape juice so kids can have it? Many Christian sects already use grape juice instead of wine during communion. Can't you see how all of CHristianity is -already- just a step removed from being a fun and magical festive exeperience for kids, which adults can take part in vicariously, laughing at their childrens magical youthful naivete while winking at one another?
I think you're pretty quick to dismiss. Just ask yourself, how much would really change if Christianity went from "faith" to "fun for kids" and would that really be so bad?
Well in all fairness it would be Jesus, and not me, who's asking the little children to come to him and telling adults to not get in the way. In many ways this verse reminded me of the "Come Little Children, I'll take thee Away" the flying witch sang to hypnotize and enchant children in 1993's children's classic, Hocus Pocus, so I wouldn't jump to this being nefarious, just again, geared toward children.Honestly John, I suspect you really are just having an intellectual exercise intended to be harmless here. But it would be easy to interpret your argument as a kind of Atheist 'grooming' or attempt to destroy the faith of the young. I do not support that at all.
Like all myths religion that is not based on philosophy ( the judgemental western religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam also called the Abrahamic religions reflecting their tribal origins. ) will fade away like other myths. I did not include the other Abrahamic religions because they are less confrontational. ( Baha'i Faith, Yezidi, Druze, Samaritan and Rastafari. )I have a simple suggestion for a "middle-ground" on which atheists and christians might reach some compromise.
As it is, atheists have no interest in being christians, let alone in teaching christianity to their children, and christians have no interest in giving up christianity and want it to still be passed down the generations. So what if we agreed to all tell our kids stories of god and christian tales, to enchant youngsters in the magic of it all, but then tell them when they're old enough that god and the biblical legends are myths - but myths that they can one day teach to their children. It's true that Christianity would no longer be a religion, but it would join the ranks of beloved children's folklore alongside Kris Kringle and his slay, the storks who deliver babies, the sandman who visits us in our dreams and the like. While Christianity is dying out, notice how these traditional children's tales remain told, and cherished, from generation to generation.
Wouldn't this be a wonderful way to honor age-old christian traditions while still allowing ourselves to grow up and let go of the myths and legends of our intellectual and spiritual adolescence? I understand that the religion elements might be hard to let go of for some, but just imagine some day having "the talk" with your kid when you tell them the truth about god and they roll their eyes and say, "I knew he wasn't real, dad!" and forgive you for your trickery because of the magic you instilled in their heart. This I think could be a cool thing. Give it a chance?
