A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[JimH52]

As I look at the sometimes tedious and monotonous back and forth on a thread like this, I submit two observations:

1. Just as I opined, the leftwing ideologues ignored an opportunity to actually think about the difference between policy and reality in a crisis situation.

2. And I now further opine that had waterboarding been used during the Obama Administration to obtain information useful in killing Osama bin Laden or thwarting furture mass murders via terrorist attack, the same people condemning the procedure would likely be defending it now. And I doubt that many conservatives would hold much different positions that what they now hold.

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

 

[Wicked Jester]

As I look at the sometimes tedious and monotonous back and forth on a thread like this, I submit two observations:

1. Just as I opined, the leftwing ideologues ignored an opportunity to actually think about the difference between policy and reality in a crisis situation.

2. And I now further opine that had waterboarding been used during the Obama Administration to obtain information useful in killing Osama bin Laden or thwarting furture mass murders via terrorist attack, the same people condemning the procedure would likely be defending it now. And I doubt that many conservatives would hold much different positions that what they now hold.

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

Look, OBL is is gone due to the work of Bush, Obama, and most importantly, CIA and Special OP's.

Fact is, our brand of waterbaording is nothing like that of the Japanese or Vietnamese......Educate yourself, and then get back to us.......Your bleeding heart loony liberal BS is not an excuse for lack of facts.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

As I look at the sometimes tedious and monotonous back and forth on a thread like this, I submit two observations:

1. Just as I opined, the leftwing ideologues ignored an opportunity to actually think about the difference between policy and reality in a crisis situation.

2. And I now further opine that had waterboarding been used during the Obama Administration to obtain information useful in killing Osama bin Laden or thwarting furture mass murders via terrorist attack, the same people condemning the procedure would likely be defending it now. And I doubt that many conservatives would hold much different positions that what they now hold.

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

I told you once you can't take the moral high groudn and support killing an unarmed man.

 

[JimH52]

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

I told you once you can't take the moral high groudn and support killing an unarmed man.

The unarmed man who was the admitted mass murderer? Glad you are supporting OBL now. I guess it took a lot of soul searching?

 

[Jack Fate]

"WHEN US Representative Steve King learned that Osama bin Laden had been killed by US troops in Pakistan, he couldn’t resist a little crowing about the efficacy of torture. “Wonder what President Obama thinks of water boarding now?’’ the Iowa Republican tweeted on May 2.

It was an outrageous remark, but King wasn’t going out on a limb. A parade of others, mostly Republicans, have joined him in claiming that the death of bin Laden had vindicated the use of waterboarding — the most notorious of the “enhanced interrogation techniques’’ the Bush administration employed to extract information from senior Al Qaeda detainees....

...I don’t know whether waterboarding was indispensable to rolling up bin Laden; for every interrogation expert who says it was, another expert argues the opposite. But the case against waterboarding never rested primarily on its usefulness. It rested on its wrongfulness. It is wrong when bad guys do it to good guys. It is just as wrong when good guys do it to Al Qaeda....

The killing of bin Laden was gratifying, but it was no vindication of torture. Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve. But Bush was wrong to permit waterboarding, and wrong to deny that it was torture. I don’t agree with Obama on much, but when it comes to waterboarding, he is right. America will defeat the global jihad, but not by embracing its most inhuman values."

Ends don’t justify the means - The Boston Globe

Jeff Jacoby (columnist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So we waterboard a terrorist to make him think he's drowning and call it torture. No blood, no wounds, nothing. Then we shoot a terrorist in the face who is unarmed.

Only a liberal in la la land can wrap that and sell it. Anyone with common sense knows it a pile of BS.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

I told you once you can't take the moral high groudn and support killing an unarmed man.

The unarmed man who was the admitted mass murderer? Glad you are supporting OBL now. I guess it took a lot of soul searching?

No he wasn't

October 16, 2001-- An interview with Osama bin Laden was published in a Karachi-based Pakistani daily newspaper, Ummat, on September 28, 2001. In this interview, bin Laden says of the September 11 attacks in the US:
"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle.

Bin Laden: AUTHENTIC INTERVIEW

Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI. When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page, Tomb said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

Surprised by the ease in which this FBI spokesman made such an astonishing statement, I asked, “How this was possible?” Tomb continued, “Bin Laden has not been formally charged in connection to 9/11.” I asked, “How does that work?” Tomb continued, “The FBI gathers evidence. Once evidence is gathered, it is turned over to the Department of Justice. The Department of Justice than decides whether it has enough evidence to present to a federal grand jury. In the case of the 1998 United States Embassies being bombed, Bin Laden has been formally indicted and charged by a grand jury. He has not been formally indicted and charged in connection with 9/11 because the FBI has no hard evidence connected Bin Laden to 9/11.”

FBI says, it has “No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11”

 

[Valerie]

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

I told you once you can't take the moral high groudn and support killing an unarmed man.

Murder of U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Conspiracy to Murder U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Attack on a Federal Facility Resulting in Death
USAMA BIN LADEN

 

[Valerie]

Jan. 19, 2006

Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden threatened the United States on an audio tape aired Thursday by Al-Jazeera. Following a background report, two experts discuss the threat and its implications.

Bin Laden Threatens U.S. in New Message | PBS NewsHour | Jan. 19, 2006 | PBS

 

[JimH52]

Maybe, if we could have only waterboarded him!?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

I told you once you can't take the moral high groudn and support killing an unarmed man.

Murder of U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Conspiracy to Murder U.S. Nationals Outside the United States; Attack on a Federal Facility Resulting in Death
USAMA BIN LADEN

You were saying?

Osama bin Laden was not armed but did put up resistance when U.S. forces stormed a compound outside Islamabad and killed him, White House spokesman Jay Carney said Tuesday.
Details of raid on bin Laden compound unfold - CNN

White House Confirms: bin Laden Unarmed
White House Confirms: bin Laden Unarmed - By Daniel Foster - The Corner - National Review Online

 

[Valerie]

The Pentagon on Saturday released five videos recovered from Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan, revealing the first glimpses of the al-Qaida leader's life behind the compound walls.

One video shows a grey-bearded bin Laden wrapped in a blanket on the floor, watching news coverage of himself on a small television. The room is barren and undecorated, with a rolled-up carpet beside him and wires hanging from an outlet in the wall. Officials said another video contains a never-released message to the American people, according to the Los Angeles Times. The videos were released without audio to avoid spreading terrorist propaganda.

An intelligence official interviewed by the New York Times said the videos indicate that bin Laden was intensely focused on his image and deeply immersed in the terrorist group al-Qaida's propoganda efforts.

Videos Seized from bin Laden's Compound Released | The Rundown News Blog | PBS NewsHour | PBS

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The Pentagon on Saturday released five videos recovered from Osama bin Laden's hideout in Abbottabad, Pakistan, revealing the first glimpses of the al-Qaida leader's life behind the compound walls.

One video shows a grey-bearded bin Laden wrapped in a blanket on the floor, watching news coverage of himself on a small television. The room is barren and undecorated, with a rolled-up carpet beside him and wires hanging from an outlet in the wall. Officials said another video contains a never-released message to the American people, according to the Los Angeles Times. The videos were released without audio to avoid spreading terrorist propaganda.

An intelligence official interviewed by the New York Times said the videos indicate that bin Laden was intensely focused on his image and deeply immersed in the terrorist group al-Qaida's propoganda efforts.

Videos Seized from bin Laden's Compound Released | The Rundown News Blog | PBS NewsHour | PBS

A video was released without audio? The current government is the biggest pack of liars Nothing they give out can be believed. If our government is so trustworthy why didn't the FBI want him for the attacks on the world trade center?

 

[Ravi]

"WHEN US Representative Steve King learned that Osama bin Laden had been killed by US troops in Pakistan, he couldn’t resist a little crowing about the efficacy of torture. “Wonder what President Obama thinks of water boarding now?’’ the Iowa Republican tweeted on May 2.

It was an outrageous remark, but King wasn’t going out on a limb. A parade of others, mostly Republicans, have joined him in claiming that the death of bin Laden had vindicated the use of waterboarding — the most notorious of the “enhanced interrogation techniques’’ the Bush administration employed to extract information from senior Al Qaeda detainees....

...I don’t know whether waterboarding was indispensable to rolling up bin Laden; for every interrogation expert who says it was, another expert argues the opposite. But the case against waterboarding never rested primarily on its usefulness. It rested on its wrongfulness. It is wrong when bad guys do it to good guys. It is just as wrong when good guys do it to Al Qaeda....

The killing of bin Laden was gratifying, but it was no vindication of torture. Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve. But Bush was wrong to permit waterboarding, and wrong to deny that it was torture. I don’t agree with Obama on much, but when it comes to waterboarding, he is right. America will defeat the global jihad, but not by embracing its most inhuman values."

Ends don’t justify the means - The Boston Globe

Jeff Jacoby (columnist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Great column! I will have to rethink my opinion that JJ is a rightwingloon.

 

[Valerie]

"WHEN US Representative Steve King learned that Osama bin Laden had been killed by US troops in Pakistan, he couldn’t resist a little crowing about the efficacy of torture. “Wonder what President Obama thinks of water boarding now?’’ the Iowa Republican tweeted on May 2.

It was an outrageous remark, but King wasn’t going out on a limb. A parade of others, mostly Republicans, have joined him in claiming that the death of bin Laden had vindicated the use of waterboarding — the most notorious of the “enhanced interrogation techniques’’ the Bush administration employed to extract information from senior Al Qaeda detainees....

...I don’t know whether waterboarding was indispensable to rolling up bin Laden; for every interrogation expert who says it was, another expert argues the opposite. But the case against waterboarding never rested primarily on its usefulness. It rested on its wrongfulness. It is wrong when bad guys do it to good guys. It is just as wrong when good guys do it to Al Qaeda....

The killing of bin Laden was gratifying, but it was no vindication of torture. Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve. But Bush was wrong to permit waterboarding, and wrong to deny that it was torture. I don’t agree with Obama on much, but when it comes to waterboarding, he is right. America will defeat the global jihad, but not by embracing its most inhuman values."

Ends don’t justify the means - The Boston Globe

Jeff Jacoby (columnist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So we waterboard a terrorist to make him think he's drowning and call it torture. No blood, no wounds, nothing. Then we shoot a terrorist in the face who is unarmed.

Only a liberal in la la land can wrap that and sell it. Anyone with common sense knows it a pile of BS.

OBL was considered an armed and dangerous fugitive...FBI Ten Most Wanted

Much different situation than being a detainee after 9/11...






We have repeatedly issued warnings, over a number of years. Following these warnings and these calls, anti-American explosions took place in a number of Islamic countries.
Osama bin Laden

We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.
Osama bin Laden

We treat them in the same way. Those who kill our women and innocent, we kill their women and innocent, until they refrain.
Osama bin Laden

Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist organization known as Al-Qaeda, "The Base".


CAUTION

Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.


CONSIDERED ARMED AND EXTREMELY DANGEROUS


Poster Classification: Ten Most Wanted Fugitives

FBI — USAMA BIN LADEN

 

[bigrebnc1775]

"WHEN US Representative Steve King learned that Osama bin Laden had been killed by US troops in Pakistan, he couldn’t resist a little crowing about the efficacy of torture. “Wonder what President Obama thinks of water boarding now?’’ the Iowa Republican tweeted on May 2.

It was an outrageous remark, but King wasn’t going out on a limb. A parade of others, mostly Republicans, have joined him in claiming that the death of bin Laden had vindicated the use of waterboarding — the most notorious of the “enhanced interrogation techniques’’ the Bush administration employed to extract information from senior Al Qaeda detainees....

...I don’t know whether waterboarding was indispensable to rolling up bin Laden; for every interrogation expert who says it was, another expert argues the opposite. But the case against waterboarding never rested primarily on its usefulness. It rested on its wrongfulness. It is wrong when bad guys do it to good guys. It is just as wrong when good guys do it to Al Qaeda....

The killing of bin Laden was gratifying, but it was no vindication of torture. Republicans rightly argue that much credit is owed to George W. Bush, who launched an effective war on terror and pursued it with fierce resolve. But Bush was wrong to permit waterboarding, and wrong to deny that it was torture. I don’t agree with Obama on much, but when it comes to waterboarding, he is right. America will defeat the global jihad, but not by embracing its most inhuman values."

Ends don’t justify the means - The Boston Globe

Jeff Jacoby (columnist) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So we waterboard a terrorist to make him think he's drowning and call it torture. No blood, no wounds, nothing. Then we shoot a terrorist in the face who is unarmed.

Only a liberal in la la land can wrap that and sell it. Anyone with common sense knows it a pile of BS.

OBL was considered an armed and dangerous fugitive...FBI Ten Most Wanted

Much different situation than being a detainee after 9/11...






We have repeatedly issued warnings, over a number of years. Following these warnings and these calls, anti-American explosions took place in a number of Islamic countries.
Osama bin Laden

We love death. The U.S. loves life. That is the difference between us two.
Osama bin Laden

We treat them in the same way. Those who kill our women and innocent, we kill their women and innocent, until they refrain.
Osama bin Laden

Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist organization known as Al-Qaeda, "The Base".


CAUTION

Usama Bin Laden is wanted in connection with the August 7, 1998, bombings of the United States Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and Nairobi, Kenya. These attacks killed over 200 people. In addition, Bin Laden is a suspect in other terrorist attacks throughout the world.


CONSIDERED ARMED AND EXTREMELY DANGEROUS


Poster Classification: Ten Most Wanted Fugitives

FBI — USAMA BIN LADEN

Bin Laden was not wanted for the attacks on the world trade center. after all was 9/11 the reason we went to war in the first place and didn't the government lead us to believe Bin Laden was the cause?

 

[Trajan]

As I look at the sometimes tedious and monotonous back and forth on a thread like this, I submit two observations:

1. Just as I opined, the leftwing ideologues ignored an opportunity to actually think about the difference between policy and reality in a crisis situation.

2. And I now further opine that had waterboarding been used during the Obama Administration to obtain information useful in killing Osama bin Laden or thwarting furture mass murders via terrorist attack, the same people condemning the procedure would likely be defending it now. And I doubt that many conservatives would hold much different positions that what they now hold.

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

again-
The form of water boarding practiced, say, by the Japanese with sea water and with no regard for the health of the prisoner along with profligate use, is not what we employed.

The NY times ran a comprehensive treatise on exactly how we performed a water boarding 'session' ala, doctor standing by,constant health checks of the prisoner and very limited employment etc etc. Every safe guard that could be taken, was.

 

[The Rabbi]

well put.

I disagree. First, it is a matter of moral standards and consistency. Waterboarding has historically been characterized as torture. During the Vietnam war, it was recognized as torture. It only became "enhanced interrogations" when the Bush administration defined it as such. That is the reality. We can't condemn an enemy for Waterboarding in one generation and then accept it in the next, because it is politically prudent.

Secondly, if Obama has used Waterboarding to access the information needed to get OBL, he would have been just as wrong as Bush was. There would have been no doubt in my mind. He would have lost many people's support.

MESSAGE TO THEE FAR RIGHT
Look, OBL is gone. Don't dwell on the fact that Obama had the guts to make the call. Go slam your hand in your car door and worry about that for a while. It will be far less painful than dwelling on the demise of OBL at the hand of Obama for the next year or so.

again-
The form of water boarding practiced, say, by the Japanese with sea water and with no regard for the health of the prisoner along with profligate use, is not what we employed.

The NY times ran a comprehensive treatise on exactly how we performed a water boarding 'session' ala, doctor standing by,constant health checks of the prisoner and very limited employment etc etc. Every safe guard that could be taken, was.

It's no good.
There is no authority that states that waterboarding is torture. The Bush Administration was very careful on this point, getting detailed legal advice on what they could or couldn't do.
But that cuts no ice with the "ooh, that sounds nasty" crowd of leftist wimps. I'll bet if we told them we would deny prisoners access to mocha lattes they'd consider that against the Geneva Convention.

 

[del]

OBL was never considered "unarmed" on account of his penchant for explosives and such...

Right? But when you are looking at a person face to face and can see their hands and they are empty, yes he is an unarmed man.

See his empty hands? Suicide missions, booby traps, escape routes...


Let me know when that Navy SEAL tells the story of why he felt the need to shoot.

you have to cut reb some slack. he's become completely unhinged by the death of osama. no joke.

 

[del]

Yep I wear a bomb pack to bed at night.



They had their orders Bin Ladn was not to be brought back in alive.

No, they knew they had the authority to kill him if they had to...

It never was their intent to bring him back alive. Are you kidding? Bin Laden fac a Obamush and Holder type trial? Obamush did not want that it would have made him look like a hypocrite, an any evidence they had would have been thrown out in court. And another reason as I have already said thy had no evidence that Bin Lade had any cnnecions with the attacks on the world trade center.

seek help

 

[del]

As I look at the sometimes tedious and monotonous back and forth on a thread like this, I submit two observations:

1. Just as I opined, the leftwing ideologues ignored an opportunity to actually think about the difference between policy and reality in a crisis situation.

2. And I now further opine that had waterboarding been used during the Obama Administration to obtain information useful in killing Osama bin Laden or thwarting furture mass murders via terrorist attack, the same people condemning the procedure would likely be defending it now. And I doubt that many conservatives would hold much different positions that what they now hold.

i suggest you actually read the piece.