A Conservative's view on waterboarding

[bodecea]

You keep repeating it like a mantra. But like most crap spewing out of esp your mouth, it means nothing.
"Better" in what sense? Better in feeling good about yourself? Better in thinking you're a moral person? Better because you don't like getting your hands dirty?

How about better at protecting innocent Americans from dying at the hands of fanatical terrorists? How about better at securing our lives and fortunes so we can do great things rather than spend time and money on a bunch of medieval throw-backs?

It isn't a question of protecting us with strong interrogration techniques (none dare call it torture) vs not using them. It is a question of protecting us vs not protecting us.

i thought you had me on ignore, putz?

another faux conservative incapable of honesty.


shocker

If you have nothing intelligent to say, just STFU.

Oh dear...a temper tantrum.

 

[Wicked Jester]

First, in my opinion a practice that produces intense pain, injury, maiming, and/or causes lasting ill effects to a person's body and/or mind is torture.

It should not be thrown in with practices and techniques that induce dread, fear, humiliation, or tolerable discomfort that might be deemed cruel and unusual punishment, but does not cause intense pain, injury, lasting detriment to health, etc.

I think decent people do not willingly subject people to either torture or other unacceptable treatment. They don' enjoy seeing it in the movies or on TV. It dehumanizes us and makes us no better than the most cruel of animals.

So if somebody asks me, a conservative, whether I condone torture, I can unequivocably say no, I do not. And I will personally do whatever I can to ensure that is the policy of our country.

However. . . .

If somebody has information that could prevent somebody committing an imminent 9/11 or otherwise kill or maim hundreds or thousands of innocent people, most especially if it was people I can honestly say I won't care what they do to him to get the information to save those people.

What waterboarding is, is a very uncomfortable temporary mind fuck, fully meant to soften a person. The info doesn't come from the actual act, it comes from the fact that unless you start squealing like a stuck pig, there could be more mind fucks in your near future.

Now, I experienced actual physical torture and pain, and the ultimate mind fuck of sleep deprived hallucinations during RANGER school. And that was achieved through normal training methods........Waterboarding in S.E.R.E. came nowhere near the pain and mind fuck that basic RANGER training did.......Nor, did waterboarding come anywhere near the mind fuck and sheer terror of being in numerous combat firefights and sketchy situations where the enemy is doing everything they can to turn you into a corpse.

 

[Valerie]

These arguments set off a furious response from the State Department and the military's uniformed lawyers, known as Judge Advocate Generals (JAGs). They argued that not applying Geneva protections could harm U.S. troops in this and future conflicts. Secretary Powell also argued in a memo to Gonzales and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice that applying Geneva would allow the U.S. to take the moral high ground and would "present a positive international posture."


Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[bigrebnc1775]

These arguments set off a furious response from the State Department and the military's uniformed lawyers, known as Judge Advocate Generals (JAGs). They argued that not applying Geneva protections could harm U.S. troops in this and future conflicts. Secretary Powell also argued in a memo to Gonzales and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice that applying Geneva would allow the U.S. to take the moral high ground and would "present a positive international posture."


Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

You don't think shooting an unarmed man has hurt us with future conflicts?

 

[JimH52]

John McCain, who was the victim of torture and a true American hero says Waterboarding it torture. That is good enough for me. The far right has got to get over it. Bin Laden is dead. Obama ordered it. GET OVER IT! If Bush has ordered the bullet, he would be far above any reproach or words of condemnation. Thus, your Hypocrisy is showing...

msnbc.com Video Player

 

[Foxfyre]

First, in my opinion a practice that produces intense pain, injury, maiming, and/or causes lasting ill effects to a person's body and/or mind is torture.

It should not be thrown in with practices and techniques that induce dread, fear, humiliation, or tolerable discomfort that might be deemed cruel and unusual punishment, but does not cause intense pain, injury, lasting detriment to health, etc.

I think decent people do not willingly subject people to either torture or other unacceptable treatment. They don' enjoy seeing it in the movies or on TV. It dehumanizes us and makes us no better than the most cruel of animals.

So if somebody asks me, a conservative, whether I condone torture, I can unequivocably say no, I do not. And I will personally do whatever I can to ensure that is the policy of our country.

However. . . .

If somebody has information that could prevent somebody committing an imminent 9/11 or otherwise kill or maim hundreds or thousands of innocent people, most especially if it was people I can honestly say I won't care what they do to him to get the information to save those people.

What waterboarding is, is a very uncomfortable temporary mind fuck, fully meant to soften a person. The info doesn't come from the actual act, it comes from the fact that unless you start squealing like a stuck pig, there could be more mind fucks in your near future.

Now, I experienced actual physical torture and pain, and the ultimate mind fuck of sleep deprived hallucinations during RANGER school. And that was achieved through normal training methods........Waterboarding in S.E.R.E. came nowhere near the pain and mind fuck that basic RANGER training did.......Nor, did waterboarding come anywhere near the mind fuck and sheer terror of being in numerous combat firefights and sketchy situations where the enemy is doing everything they can to turn you into a corpse.

In Ranger Training, training for the Navy Seals, and other elite groups, and even to some extent in basic training for all our armed forces, the 'torture' is acceptable because those going through it are doing so voluntarily. And, though there will be consequences, they can refuse at any time.

We must be more civil to those who have no say in what they will and will not be allowed to do however. So in that sense, we wil treat our prisoners better than we treat our brave warriors in uniform, but I see no reason we should treat them better in any other sense. It is NOT cruel and unusual punishment to not give prisoners big screen TVs or special meals, require that they perform some activity, etc. etc. Sheriff Arpaio's pink underwear and outfits or requiring prisoners to sleep in tents was NOT cruel and unusual punishment. Perhaps if we went back to the days where jail was a pretty unpleasant place to be, more people would work harder to stay out of them.

 

[Valerie]

These arguments set off a furious response from the State Department and the military's uniformed lawyers, known as Judge Advocate Generals (JAGs). They argued that not applying Geneva protections could harm U.S. troops in this and future conflicts. Secretary Powell also argued in a memo to Gonzales and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice that applying Geneva would allow the U.S. to take the moral high ground and would "present a positive international posture."


Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

You don't think shooting an unarmed man has hurt us with future conflicts?

OBL was never considered "unarmed" on account of his penchant for explosives and such...

 

[freedombecki]

If waterboarding a terrorist prevented a dirty bomb from exploding in the heart of Chicago in 2003, in a noontime street with thousands of workers out and about, it was the right thing to have done. Not to have found out by doing nothing would have been the wrong and irresponsible thing to do.

We don't have to put up with a brainwashed pawn murdering tens of thousands of Americans on a crowded street.

May Allah deal harshly with craven, unscrupulous poseurs vying for luxuries by murdering American civilians at their workplaces, civic centers, and anywhere else.

I'm giving America a thumbs up for employing its limited use of waterboarding to obtain information that saved American lives from those paranoid scurrying rats who did 9/11.

We did them back, and they won't get away with bullshittin' calumny that led to the murder of every person who died in the attack of 9/11. It was evil pure and simple. And it deserved to be halted.

If there's gonna be hell to pay to terrorist families, may they get what they have comin', and that'd be a certain torturous death. And if that doesn't work, nuke 'em all and the camels they rode in on.

Softness on anyone's part on our side is considered a free fire zone and cause for more murders by the rabid terrorists. If they act like bugs, and they convince their entire society to act like bugs, there really isn't any other recourse except kill or be killed.

Ergo, give 'em hell if that's what it takes, and I think that's exactly what it's gonna take.

Therefore, I support whatever it takes to rid the world of this threat to innocent people. Or they can leave us alone and be left alone.

The choice is theirs.

Next issue!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

John McCain, who was the victim of torture and a true American hero says Waterboarding it torture. That is good enough for me. The far right has got to get over it. Bin Laden is dead. Obama ordered it. GET OVER IT! If Bush has ordered the bullet, he would be far above any reproach or words of condemnation. Thus, your Hypocrisy is showing...

msnbc.com Video Player

Look last time you cannot claim a moral high ground on one issue and cheer about the death of an unarmed man.

 

[Valerie]

John McCain, who was the victim of torture and a true American hero says Waterboarding it torture. That is good enough for me. The far right has got to get over it. Bin Laden is dead. Obama ordered it. GET OVER IT! If Bush has ordered the bullet, he would be far above any reproach or words of condemnation. Thus, your Hypocrisy is showing...

msnbc.com Video Player

Look last time you cannot claim a moral high ground on one issue and cheer about the death of an unarmed man.

So, you are an OBL sympathizer?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

These arguments set off a furious response from the State Department and the military's uniformed lawyers, known as Judge Advocate Generals (JAGs). They argued that not applying Geneva protections could harm U.S. troops in this and future conflicts. Secretary Powell also argued in a memo to Gonzales and National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice that applying Geneva would allow the U.S. to take the moral high ground and would "present a positive international posture."


Frequently Asked Questions | The Torture Question | FRONTLINE | PBS

You don't think shooting an unarmed man has hurt us with future conflicts?

OBL was never considered "unarmed" on account of his penchant for explosives and such...

Right? But when you are looking at a person face to face and can see their hands and they are empty, yes he is an unarmed man.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

John McCain, who was the victim of torture and a true American hero says Waterboarding it torture. That is good enough for me. The far right has got to get over it. Bin Laden is dead. Obama ordered it. GET OVER IT! If Bush has ordered the bullet, he would be far above any reproach or words of condemnation. Thus, your Hypocrisy is showing...

msnbc.com Video Player

Look last time you cannot claim a moral high ground on one issue and cheer about the death of an unarmed man.

So, you are an OBL sympathizer?

No I for truth an honesty which it seems the left has a hard time finding. You cannot not say waterboarding is wrong and turn around and cheer at the death of an unarmed man.

 

[Foxfyre]

John McCain, who was the victim of torture and a true American hero says Waterboarding it torture. That is good enough for me. The far right has got to get over it. Bin Laden is dead. Obama ordered it. GET OVER IT! If Bush has ordered the bullet, he would be far above any reproach or words of condemnation. Thus, your Hypocrisy is showing...

msnbc.com Video Player

And yet thousands of our military men who have willingly subjected themselves to waterboarding as a training exercise disagree with him. So should John McCain be the last word? Yes it is a horrendous practice and we should not be doing it to people for our amusement or just to find out if a person know's something. But to equate it to what was done to John McCain? No way I can do that.

I think about that movie "Guarding Tess." The former first lady is kidnapped, is seriously ill, and in severe danger. Her secret service agent is certain the chauffeur, in the hospital following a feigned accident, knows where she is. He refuses to say anything. So the Secret Service agent shoots off one of his toes. He is taking aim at a second toe when the chauffeur tells him what he needs to know. The lady had been buried alive with a limited amount of air and would likely have died had he not found her when he did.

Was the shooting the toe justified? Or do you go by the book and let an innocent person die?

It's always an interesting dilemma isn't it?

Honest/intelligent people actually think about it and don't react in kneejerk fashion.

Ideologues and wingnuts will not allow themselves to consider anything other than the politically correct position and blow off any other considerations.

 

[Wicked Jester]

First, in my opinion a practice that produces intense pain, injury, maiming, and/or causes lasting ill effects to a person's body and/or mind is torture.

It should not be thrown in with practices and techniques that induce dread, fear, humiliation, or tolerable discomfort that might be deemed cruel and unusual punishment, but does not cause intense pain, injury, lasting detriment to health, etc.

I think decent people do not willingly subject people to either torture or other unacceptable treatment. They don' enjoy seeing it in the movies or on TV. It dehumanizes us and makes us no better than the most cruel of animals.

So if somebody asks me, a conservative, whether I condone torture, I can unequivocably say no, I do not. And I will personally do whatever I can to ensure that is the policy of our country.

However. . . .

If somebody has information that could prevent somebody committing an imminent 9/11 or otherwise kill or maim hundreds or thousands of innocent people, most especially if it was people I can honestly say I won't care what they do to him to get the information to save those people.

What waterboarding is, is a very uncomfortable temporary mind fuck, fully meant to soften a person. The info doesn't come from the actual act, it comes from the fact that unless you start squealing like a stuck pig, there could be more mind fucks in your near future.

Now, I experienced actual physical torture and pain, and the ultimate mind fuck of sleep deprived hallucinations during RANGER school. And that was achieved through normal training methods........Waterboarding in S.E.R.E. came nowhere near the pain and mind fuck that basic RANGER training did.......Nor, did waterboarding come anywhere near the mind fuck and sheer terror of being in numerous combat firefights and sketchy situations where the enemy is doing everything they can to turn you into a corpse.

In Ranger Training, training for the Navy Seals, and other elite groups, and even to some extent in basic training for all our armed forces, the 'torture' is acceptable because those going through it are doing so voluntarily. And, though there will be consequences, they can refuse at any time.

We must be more civil to those who have no say in what they will and will not be allowed to do however. So in that sense, we wil treat our prisoners better than we treat our brave warriors in uniform, but I see no reason we should treat them better in any other sense. It is NOT cruel and unusual punishment to not give prisoners big screen TVs or special meals, require that they perform some activity, etc. etc. Sheriff Arpaio's pink underwear and outfits or requiring prisoners to sleep in tents was NOT cruel and unusual punishment. Perhaps if we went back to the days where jail was a pretty unpleasant place to be, more people would work harder to stay out of them.

I in no way felt that waterboarding was torture. It was an extremely uncomfortable feeling, and mind fuck. No physical pain was experienced.......Now, improperly administered without a doctor present, I could see very well leading to pain.....That's not how we do it.

Fact is, this enemy are fanatics. Batshit crazy fanatics who are far from stupid.......It does not matter how we treat them, they are not going to be any more or less motivated then they already are. They are motivated by their crazy fanaticism. That is all the motivation they need.......We could build a great big Islamic Disneyland for them, complete with all the goats they could eat, and a steady round of brand spankin' new 72 virgins, and they are still going to do whatever they can to kill us.......And like I said, they are not stupid. Hell, most people can't logistically pull off a weekend get away without problems, let alone pull off an attack that rams three fully loaded Airliners into buildings full of people, and one into an empty field, killing all on board.

 

[Valerie]

You don't think shooting an unarmed man has hurt us with future conflicts?

OBL was never considered "unarmed" on account of his penchant for explosives and such...

Right? But when you are looking at a person face to face and can see their hands and they are empty, yes he is an unarmed man.

See his empty hands? Suicide missions, booby traps, escape routes...


Let me know when that Navy SEAL tells the story of why he felt the need to shoot.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

OBL was never considered "unarmed" on account of his penchant for explosives and such...

Right? But when you are looking at a person face to face and can see their hands and they are empty, yes he is an unarmed man.

See his empty hands? Suicide missions, booby traps, escape routes...


Let me know when that Navy SEAL tells the story of why he felt the need to shoot.

See his empty hands? Suicide missions, booby traps, escape routes...

Yep I wear a bomb pack to bed at night.

Let me know when that Navy SEAL tells the story of why he felt the need to shoot

They had their orders Bin Ladn was not to be brought back in alive.

 

[DiamondDave]

John McCain, who was the victim of torture and a true American hero says Waterboarding it torture. That is good enough for me. The far right has got to get over it. Bin Laden is dead. Obama ordered it. GET OVER IT! If Bush has ordered the bullet, he would be far above any reproach or words of condemnation. Thus, your Hypocrisy is showing...

msnbc.com Video Player

Of course it is good enough for you... I would venture to guess that any person with a statement or stance against it would be good enough for you... merely because it fits your preconceived agenda

 

[Valerie]

Right? But when you are looking at a person face to face and can see their hands and they are empty, yes he is an unarmed man.

See his empty hands? Suicide missions, booby traps, escape routes...


Let me know when that Navy SEAL tells the story of why he felt the need to shoot.

See his empty hands? Suicide missions, booby traps, escape routes...

Yep I wear a bomb pack to bed at night.

Let me know when that Navy SEAL tells the story of why he felt the need to shoot

They had their orders Bin Ladn was not to be brought back in alive.

No, they knew they had the authority to kill him if they had to...

 

[Wicked Jester]

If waterboarding a terrorist prevented a dirty bomb from exploding in the heart of Chicago in 2003, in a noontime street with thousands of workers out and about, it was the right thing to have done. Not to have found out by doing nothing would have been the wrong and irresponsible thing to do.

We don't have to put up with a brainwashed pawn murdering tens of thousands of Americans on a crowded street.

May Allah deal harshly with craven, unscrupulous poseurs vying for luxuries by murdering American civilians at their workplaces, civic centers, and anywhere else.

I'm giving America a thumbs up for employing its limited use of waterboarding to obtain information that saved American lives from those paranoid scurrying rats who did 9/11.

We did them back, and they won't get away with bullshittin' calumny that led to the murder of every person who died in the attack of 9/11. It was evil pure and simple. And it deserved to be halted.

If there's gonna be hell to pay to terrorist families, may they get what they have comin', and that'd be a certain torturous death. And if that doesn't work, nuke 'em all and the camels they rode in on.

Softness on anyone's part on our side is considered a free fire zone and cause for more murders by the rabid terrorists. If they act like bugs, and they convince their entire society to act like bugs, there really isn't any other recourse except kill or be killed.

Ergo, give 'em hell if that's what it takes, and I think that's exactly what it's gonna take.

Therefore, I support whatever it takes to rid the world of this threat to innocent people. Or they can leave us alone and be left alone.

The choice is theirs.

Next issue!

Absolutely right.......It's a method that should always be in an interrogators toolbox......Particularly for use against those who are either in charge, like KSM, or those where there is little doubt they have pertinent info that can save american lives, or lead to the capture or killing of HVO's.

 

[Valerie]

"It was justified as an act of national self-defence," Holder told the Senate Judiciary Committee, citing bin Laden's admission of being involved in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States that killed nearly 3,000 people.

He said a trove of information seized from the compound would likely lead to more names being added to U.S. terrorism watch-lists.

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/05/05/idINIndia-56785320110505