Actual gun defense..robber has gun pointed at victims...and loses to armed good guy...

[2aguy]

Ple

Brian - I have all sorts of tools that I very rarely need. I haven't used my 36 foot extension ladder in years. I have some ladder hooks that screw on the top of an extension ladder that I haven't used in over ten years. I have some diamond tipped drill bitts I have only used once. Most of them I haven't ever used (they came in a set). I carry a small pocket knife with me most places I go, yet I almost never use it.

I have used my firearm many more times than I have used these (and many) of my other tools. Granted, my handgun has, thus far, fortunately only been used to shoot at targets, but my family and I think it's fun to shoot at targets, AND that firearm has the added potential of increasing the level of protection for my family when we are out.

Do you lock your doors and windows at night? Those are protective things that rarely get "used" to prevent burglers, right? Most houses, arguably, never have a burgery attempt, so why have locks on the doors?

Do you buckle your seat belt in your car? Most cars go throughout their useful life without any sort of major accident, so why use your seat-belt? And those seat belts can be DANGEROUS you know....sometimes trapping the poor user into the burning car and costing them their life.

I know nothing is going to change your mind, or any other gun-grabbers....

How many of those things accidently kill lots of people. Many people who use them in defense are getting shot and killed when they otherwise would have survived. So these people who insist you need a gun to be safer are wrong. I think it's important people know these things when deciding to own/carry. Too often we hear you need a gun to be safe and peope who shouldn't get guns.

Please link to a gun accidentally killing a lot of people.

I must have missed that.

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

As the others have said....anytime you are confronted by another human it is a violent situation.....since you can't read minds and they have already broken the law several times just by confronting you or getting into the position where there is a confrontation......and of the 17,000 you claim are accidents...only 6-700 result in death....out of over 320 million guns in private hands, with over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

It is so insignificant a number that it is just silly for you to hang your hat on it.......

 

[2aguy]

Ple

How many of those things accidently kill lots of people. Many people who use them in defense are getting shot and killed when they otherwise would have survived. So these people who insist you need a gun to be safer are wrong. I think it's important people know these things when deciding to own/carry. Too often we hear you need a gun to be safe and peope who shouldn't get guns.

Please link to a gun accidentally killing a lot of people.

I must have missed that.

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

And that is brains number....the real number of defensive gun uses is 1.6 million times a year on average....people stopping violent crime and saving lives......and that number is from both public and private studies, with anti gunner researchers in some cases, over a 40 year period.......also including the clinton era Justice Dept. and obama's CDC.....

 

[2aguy]

Every single day. I gave an actual job and a family and cannot devote my life to providing proof each day just to defeat a Progressive who doesn't have the honesty, integrity, or maturity to ever admit that he's wrong no matter what I do.

I think you'd be lucky to get one a week. I know I can post more accidental shooting stories than you can defenses.

I wish that this discussion board had some police power. I can prove you wrong but to what end? You aren't forced to concede, you aren't punished for being wrong. You are free to ignore my evidence and continue to spout nonsense.

You are a progressive gun grabber who will never ever admit to being wrong no matter what. Why I've wasted all this time already is a mystery. Go ahead now and pretend this is surrender and claim you win. I'm done.

Well I'm confident I can post way more accidental shootings than you can defenses. Call me what you will, but that is a fact.

Brain...even with your defense of the NCVS number, which you put at 108,000 and your inflated 17,000 accidental shootings a year with only 6-700 gun accident deaths a year...even your own flawed numbers prove you wrong....

The real number on average of 1.6 million defensive uses a year far out weighs any actual gun murder rate....which is about 8-9,000 a year and combine that with the accidental gun death rate, which is 6-700 a year....and again you are wrong....

Wether you can find them in the media.....your own numbers that you defend show you are wrong.....and those numbers are low, and wrong.....

New account bill?

New name....goes with my new super hero outfit.........

 

[Brain357]

Ple

How many of those things accidently kill lots of people. Many people who use them in defense are getting shot and killed when they otherwise would have survived. So these people who insist you need a gun to be safer are wrong. I think it's important people know these things when deciding to own/carry. Too often we hear you need a gun to be safe and peope who shouldn't get guns.

Please link to a gun accidentally killing a lot of people.

I must have missed that.

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

As the others have said....anytime you are confronted by another human it is a violent situation.....since you can't read minds and they have already broken the law several times just by confronting you or getting into the position where there is a confrontation......and of the 17,000 you claim are accidents...only 6-700 result in death....out of over 320 million guns in private hands, with over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

It is so insignificant a number that it is just silly for you to hang your hat on it.......

Why are you guys so scared? You have pointed out most homicides are gang related. If you aren't involved in criminal activity this is a very safe country. Why do you think our country is so scary?

 

[Brain357]

Ple
Please link to a gun accidentally killing a lot of people.

I must have missed that.

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

And that is brains number....the real number of defensive gun uses is 1.6 million times a year on average....people stopping violent crime and saving lives......and that number is from both public and private studies, with anti gunner researchers in some cases, over a 40 year period.......also including the clinton era Justice Dept. and obama's CDC.....

Yes and only 232 criminals shot and killed in defense. Sure. I guess they all hesitate to shoot when pulling their guns right? Give up their advantage as you claim to the criminal? 100k is probably a high number.

 

[2aguy]

Ple
Please link to a gun accidentally killing a lot of people.

I must have missed that.

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

As the others have said....anytime you are confronted by another human it is a violent situation.....since you can't read minds and they have already broken the law several times just by confronting you or getting into the position where there is a confrontation......and of the 17,000 you claim are accidents...only 6-700 result in death....out of over 320 million guns in private hands, with over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

It is so insignificant a number that it is just silly for you to hang your hat on it.......

Why are you guys so scared? You have pointed out most homicides are gang related. If you aren't involved in criminal activity this is a very safe country. Why do you think our country is so scary?

Technically, I don't. But murder and crime happen everyday, in all parts of the world....including very safe places......the family in CT. was pointed out......the mom and the one daughter went to the store......the husband at home taking a nap....the other daughter busy doing her thing at the home...........and the mom and the daughter are followed home from the store by 2 monsters.....who proceed to beat the crap out of the husband with a bat, and then rape the mother and 2 daughters, and end up burning them alive in their home....

Tell me brain.......do you think anyone in that family thought that would be how their day ended?

 

[Brain357]

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

All crimes have the potential to be violent crimes.

If someone is brazen enough to break into your home while you are there do you not think they are willing to do you harm if needs be?

BTW you are naive if you don't

I think most burglars hope to take your stuff without you knowing. If they are alerted you are there most will take off. But don't take my word, go look at crime statistics.

Opportunity rape happens all the time...they go in to rob, and find a woman alone........

Link.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You all understand that Brain knows he's lying -- right?

 

[2aguy]

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

And that is brains number....the real number of defensive gun uses is 1.6 million times a year on average....people stopping violent crime and saving lives......and that number is from both public and private studies, with anti gunner researchers in some cases, over a 40 year period.......also including the clinton era Justice Dept. and obama's CDC.....

Yes and only 232 criminals shot and killed in defense. Sure. I guess they all hesitate to shoot when pulling their guns right? Give up their advantage as you claim to the criminal? 100k is probably a high number.

No....as has been continuously pointed out.....you don't have to kill someone to stop a crime....you don't even have to shoot someone to stop the crime.....most of the time the criminal stops when he sees the gun.......the next most common occurrence is they are held at gun point for the police, then the next, they get shot but not killed, and finally, when the criminal is too stupid to run, and decides to fight....they get killed.....

Why would the rate be so low for dead criminals....

1) and the most important.....normal people do not want to kill anyone...even criminals, and will only do so when there is absolutely no other way to stop the attack.......

2) a good percentage of criminals do not want to get shot....not even to be injured because then they need medical help which means they might get caught by the police....they don't want to die either....so most of the time they run........

 

[2aguy]

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

All crimes have the potential to be violent crimes.

If someone is brazen enough to break into your home while you are there do you not think they are willing to do you harm if needs be?

BTW you are naive if you don't

I think most burglars hope to take your stuff without you knowing. If they are alerted you are there most will take off. But don't take my word, go look at crime statistics.

Opportunity rape happens all the time...they go in to rob, and find a woman alone........

Link.

I have first hand knowledge of one.....a clerk at a convenience store....my brother knew her.....store was robbed late at night....he took her in the back and raped her...she reported the robbery but not the rape.........

 

[Vigilante]

The founders knew... They had to use them, and use them often...without them, we would still be paying the Queen!

 

[Roadrunner]

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

All crimes have the potential to be violent crimes.

If someone is brazen enough to break into your home while you are there do you not think they are willing to do you harm if needs be?

BTW you are naive if you don't

I think most burglars hope to take your stuff without you knowing. If they are alerted you are there most will take off. But don't take my word, go look at crime statistics.

Why don't you google Home Invasions(insert any city USA) and learn a little about what is going on, before you pontificate on what people need or do not need for protection in their own areas?

WTF is wrong with you people that can't just mind your own business?

 

[Brain357]

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

As the others have said....anytime you are confronted by another human it is a violent situation.....since you can't read minds and they have already broken the law several times just by confronting you or getting into the position where there is a confrontation......and of the 17,000 you claim are accidents...only 6-700 result in death....out of over 320 million guns in private hands, with over 11.1 million people actually carrying guns for self defense....

It is so insignificant a number that it is just silly for you to hang your hat on it.......

Why are you guys so scared? You have pointed out most homicides are gang related. If you aren't involved in criminal activity this is a very safe country. Why do you think our country is so scary?

Technically, I don't. But murder and crime happen everyday, in all parts of the world....including very safe places......the family in CT. was pointed out......the mom and the one daughter went to the store......the husband at home taking a nap....the other daughter busy doing her thing at the home...........and the mom and the daughter are followed home from the store by 2 monsters.....who proceed to beat the crap out of the husband with a bat, and then rape the mother and 2 daughters, and end up burning them alive in their home....

Tell me brain.......do you think anyone in that family thought that would be how their day ended?

Over 300 million people in the country. How often you think that happens?

 

[Brain357]

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

All crimes have the potential to be violent crimes.

If someone is brazen enough to break into your home while you are there do you not think they are willing to do you harm if needs be?

BTW you are naive if you don't

I think most burglars hope to take your stuff without you knowing. If they are alerted you are there most will take off. But don't take my word, go look at crime statistics.

Why don't you google Home Invasions(insert any city USA) and learn a little about what is going on, before you pontificate on what people need or do not need for protection in their own areas?

WTF is wrong with you people that can't just mind your own business?

Don't like the statistics? You don't need to be so scared.

 

[Roadrunner]

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

All crimes have the potential to be violent crimes.

If someone is brazen enough to break into your home while you are there do you not think they are willing to do you harm if needs be?

BTW you are naive if you don't

I think most burglars hope to take your stuff without you knowing. If they are alerted you are there most will take off. But don't take my word, go look at crime statistics.

Why don't you google Home Invasions(insert any city USA) and learn a little about what is going on, before you pontificate on what people need or do not need for protection in their own areas?

WTF is wrong with you people that can't just mind your own business?

Don't like the statistics? You don't need to be so scared.

Anyone who disagrees with you is scared?

Dream on.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Ple
Please link to a gun accidentally killing a lot of people.

I must have missed that.

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

Burglary is a violent crime. It's the forceful plundering of another persons property. If you think of violence only as something that sheds blood, you'll never understand what it truly is until it happens to you.

You must be SO sheltered.

 

[Brain357]

Go to google news and search accidental shooting. They are very plentiful.

As are defensive shootings.....brain......you state and defend the wrong number of 108,000 defensive uses of guns......you then state and defend 17,000 gun accidents each year with 6-700 accidental gun deaths each year (my number).......so by your own numbers...which you defend.....there can't be more gun accidents then there are defensive uses.....

Your numbers are wrong of course....but you state them and defend them......

If there are 100,000 defenses than only about 10,000 are defending violent crime. So 10,000 defenses of violent crime vs 17,000 people accidently shot.

So who are the other 90000 defending themselves from?

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

Burglary is a violent crime. It's the forceful plundering of another persons property. If you think of violence only as something that sheds blood, you'll never understand what it truly is until it happens to you.

You must be SO sheltered.

Show me where burglary is considered a violent crime. No wonder you are so scared. Name calling is too right?

 

[Brain357]

Other crimes. Like burglary. All crimes are not violent crimes. Most defenses are against unarmed criminals looking to steal.

All crimes have the potential to be violent crimes.

If someone is brazen enough to break into your home while you are there do you not think they are willing to do you harm if needs be?

BTW you are naive if you don't

I think most burglars hope to take your stuff without you knowing. If they are alerted you are there most will take off. But don't take my word, go look at crime statistics.

Why don't you google Home Invasions(insert any city USA) and learn a little about what is going on, before you pontificate on what people need or do not need for protection in their own areas?

WTF is wrong with you people that can't just mind your own business?

Don't like the statistics? You don't need to be so scared.

Anyone who disagrees with you is scared?

Dream on.

Why are you so offended by statistics? Why do you get mad that your country isn't this scary place?

 

[2aguy]

This is why I debate brain...I often get the impression he doesn't believe what he posts since it is often silly and just contrarian in nature.....but...I do find the best articles when I research a topic in response to him....

Burglaries and gun ownership.....

Lawyers Guns Burglars

To illustrate the point, this Article looks in detail at a very large positive externality which is overlooked in the handgun suits: the major role that widespread gun ownership plays in reducing the rate of home invasion burglaries (a.k.a "hot burglaries"). Because [FN5] The entry pattern of American burglars contrasts sharply with that of burglars in other nations; in Canada and Great Britain, burglars prefer to find the residents at home, since alarms will be turned off, and wallets and purses will be available for the taking. [FN6]

III. Risks to American Burglars
A. Risks to Burglars from Victims

One out of thirty-one burglars has been shot during a burglary. [FN25] On the whole, when an American burglar strikes at an occupied residence, his chance of being shot is about equal to his chance of being sent to prison. [FN26] If we assume that the risk of prison provides some deterrence to burglary, it would seem reasonable to conclude that the equally large risk of being shot provides an equally large deterrent. In other words, private individuals with firearms in their homes double the deterrent effect that would exist if government-imposed punishment were the only deterrent.

 

[2aguy]

And here we go.....rapes and assaults during burglaries.......when the people do not have guns.....

B. Confrontation with Unprotected Victims

When burglars do encounter victims who cannot protect themselves, the results can be tragic. In thirty percent of these cases, the victim is assaulted or threatened. [FN101] In ten percent of these cases, the burglaries turn into rapes. [FN102] Over the ten-year period of 1973-82, this meant 623,000 aggravated (felony) assaults and 281,000 rapes. [FN103] [FN104]

C. In Homes and on the Street

Rengert and Wasilchick's book about how burglars work reveals that fear of armed homeowners played a major role in determining burglary targets. Burglars reported that they avoided late-night burglaries because, "That's the way to get shot." [FN63] Some burglars said that they shun burglaries in [FN64]

The most thorough study of burglary patterns was a St. Louis survey of 105 currently active burglars. [FN65] The authors observed, "One of the most serious risks faced by residential burglars is the possibility of being injured or killed by occupants of a target. Many of the offenders we spoke to reported that this was far and away their greatest fear." [FN66] Said one burglar: "I don't think about gettin' caught, I think about gettin' gunned down, shot or somethin'...'cause you get into some people's houses...quick as I come in there, boom, they hit you right there. That's what I think about."

Another burglar explained:

Hey, wouldn't you blow somebody away if someone broke into your house and you don't know them? You hear this noise and they come breakin' in the window tryin' to get into your house, they gon' want to kill you anyway. See, with the police, they gon' say, "Come out with your hands up and don't do nothing foolish!" Okay, you still alive, but you goin' to jail. But you alive. You sneak into somebody's house and they wait til you get in the house and then they shoot you.. . .See what I'm sayin'? You can't explain nothin' to nobody; you layin' down in there dead! [FN67]

In contrast, Missouri is one of only nine states which has no provision for citizens to be issued permits to carry handguns for protection. Thus, a[FN68] They found that "ome of the offenders who favored armed robbery over other crimes *355[FN69] As one armed robber put it: "My style is, like, don't have to be up in nobody's house in case they come in; they might have a pistol in the house or something." [FN70]