Affirmative action, helpful or harmful?

[IM2]

We do not know the rationale for individual hiring actions

However, we do know that overall, more white women are in professional positions and executive positions that were once exclusively held by white males

Credit affirmative action

No, we don't know that. Again, no way to prove it one way or another.

We do know that.

White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents

But the battle to erase race from the application review process for admission comes with an interesting paradox: "The primary beneficiaries of affirmative action have been Euro-American women," wrote Columbia University law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw for the University of Michigan Law Review in 2006.

A 1995 report by the California Senate Government Organization Committee found that white women held a majority of managerial jobs (57,250) compared with African Americans (10,500), Latinos (19,000), and Asian Americans (24,600) after the first two decades of affirmative action in the private sector. In 2015, a disproportionate representation of white women business owners set off concerns that New York state would not be able to bridge a racial gap among public contractors.

A 1995 report by the Department of Labor found that 6 million women overall had advances at their job that would not have been possible without affirmative action.

White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents

State Study Tracks Diversity / Affirmative action cited for rise in female, minority bosses

The report was released on the eve of the first legislative hearing of a measure to end state affirmative action programs, and it sheds new light on an issue that has emerged as one of the most emotional and divisive in the state.

The study found that in 1993, the last year for which figures are available, major California firms employed 17,800 fewer white males in managerial positions than in 1975.

At the same time, 10,500 more African Americans, 19,300 more Latinos, 24,600 more Asian Americans and 57,250 more white women were holding managerial jobs.

State Study Tracks Diversity / Affirmative action cited for rise in female, minority bosses

View attachment 185609 Affirmative Action and What It Means for Women

Affirmative Action Works
Affirmative action programs make a difference. A government study showed that women made greater gains in employment at companies doing business with the federal government, and therefore subject to federal affirmative action requirements, than at other companies: female employment rose 15.2% at federal contractors, and only 2.2% elsewhere. The same study showed that federal contractors employed women at higher levels and in better paying jobs than other firms.

Many individual companies that have adopted affirmative action plans have demonstrated the impact on women. For example, after IBM set up its affirmative action program, its number of female officials and managers more than tripled in less than ten years. Corporate commitment to women and minorities enabled Corning to double its number of female and black employees and increase the proportion of women managers to 29%. Motorola has been rewarded with an increased representation of women and people of color in upper-level management. The company had two women and six persons of color as vice president in 1989, but boasts 33 female and 40 minority vice presidents today.

Affirmative action requirements have changed entire industries. In 1978, the Labor Department’s Office of Federal Contract Compliance (OFCCP) reviewed the employment practices of the five largest banks in Cleveland. Three years later, the percentage of women officials and managers at these institutions had risen more than 20%. When OFCCP first looked at the coal mining industry in 1973, there were no women coal miners. By 1980, 8.7% were women.

Litigation against police and fire departments has resulted in affirmative action plans that have produced dramatic increases in the employment of women (and minorities) in these fields as well. In 1983, for example, women made up 9.4% of the nation’s police, and 1% of firefighters. Sixteen years later, women are 16.9% of police, and 2.8% of firefighters.

Women-owned businesses, which have also benefitted from affirmative action requirements, have increased since 1987 by 103%. Today, there are nearly 9.1 million woman-owned businesses, employing over 27.5 million people.

Affirmative Action and What It Means for Women - NWLC

This is all circumstantial. Unless somebody does a study where employers report that the only reason they hired minorities or women is because of AA, then these stories are speculation at best.

Since the 80's, more and more women attended college. It's only reasonable to assume that the reason there are more minorities and women in the workforce is because there are more minorities and women that became educated in those various fields of work.

There is nothing circumstantial about it. Blacks are a minority but you swear we have only gotten things because of affirmative action. Now that you have been shown how whites have befitted the most, suddenly it's circumstantial and opinion. No, it is truth. Just like white men exclusively got what you think AA is for almost 200 years by written law and policy.

When did I ever say that blacks have only gotten things because of AA? I never said that. If anything, I said many blacks got to where they are today by their own accord.

Yeah, that's the ticket.

 

[Asclepias]

But how were you able to teach in a unversity [university] without a Ph.d [PH.D]?

I've taught at several universities and I have but a bachelors degree in a totally unrelated field. It has never been my full-time profession.

For all your self-professed education, I have corrected your spelling. Don't you even have spell check?

For most freshman and many other classes, they are primarily taught by a teachers assistant. Someone with far less than a PH.D. You know that, don't you?

You need at least a masters to teach in a university liar.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

It discriminates between people on the basis of race, and gives favors to those of one particular race (blacks). Racial discrimination, pure and simple. You make a fool of yourself.

I've already posted this here but I'll post the content in part again

Executive Order 11246, signed by President Lyndon B. Johnson on September 24, 1965, established requirements for non-discriminatory practices in hiring and employment on the part of U.S. government contractors. It "prohibits federal contractors and federally assisted construction contractors and subcontractors, who do over $10,000 in Government business in one year from discriminating in employment decisions on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin."[1] It also requires contractors to "***take affirmative action*** to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin." The phrase affirmative action had appeared previously in Executive Order 10925 in 1961.
Executive Order 11246 - Wikipedia
​

As you can read for yourself from the source it requires that job applicants and employees are treated without regard to their race (does not say African American / people of African descent or Negro), color (does not say non-white) and includes national origin. National origin would include protections from discrimination for the [white] Irish. The prohibition against discrimination based on sex provides protection to women (including white women).

Just because you don't want to believe that any of this is true doesn't make it untrue.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

FALSE! Some people (ex, Barrack Obama) shouldn't have even been IN the college

Damn! What traits do you believe disqualifies people from ever being IN a college? And then what traits do "those people" have in common with President Obama?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

A Long History of Affirmative Action - For Whites

Many middle-class white people, especially those of us from the suburbs, like to think that we got to where we are today by virtue of our merit - hard work, intelligence, pluck, and maybe a little luck. And while we may be sympathetic to the plight of others, we close down when we hear the words "affirmative action" or "racial preferences." We worked hard, we made it on our own, the thinking goes, why don't 'they'? After all, the Civil Rights Act was enacted almost 40 years ago.

What we don't readily acknowledge is that racial preferences have a long, institutional history in this country - a white history.

This was the only way I could think of to vote you up twice

 

[Markle]

You have not corrected anything.

Education Requirements for Becoming a College Professor
Upon completion of a Bachelor's Degree, you would need to enter into Graduate School. College professors need at least a Master's Degree. However, in many cases, a Doctoral Degree is required as well. While in school, those desiring to become a college professor should participate in available internships or employment opportunities that could enhance their teaching and research experience. This could include holding an assistantship in Graduate School (TA) and maintaining good academic and working relationships with professors.

College Professor | Requirements | Salary | Jobs | Teacher.org

Typical Requirements to Become a Higher Education Teacher
Minimum Education Level Master’s degree. Most colleges and universities require a doctorate degree in order to teach, but some allow those with masters degrees.

How to Become a Higher Education Teacher | TeachingDegree

LIE, I corrected your atrocious spelling. You proved, for all your yammering about having a superior education and you, not even knowing the proper abbreviation for "Doctor of Philosophy". You are pitiful.

You really don't know most of those who teach in a university are NOT a professor?

Your idol, former President Barack Hussein Obama was never a professor and yet he taught at a university. How could that happen?

 

[Asclepias]

You have not corrected anything.

Education Requirements for Becoming a College Professor
Upon completion of a Bachelor's Degree, you would need to enter into Graduate School. College professors need at least a Master's Degree. However, in many cases, a Doctoral Degree is required as well. While in school, those desiring to become a college professor should participate in available internships or employment opportunities that could enhance their teaching and research experience. This could include holding an assistantship in Graduate School (TA) and maintaining good academic and working relationships with professors.

College Professor | Requirements | Salary | Jobs | Teacher.org

Typical Requirements to Become a Higher Education Teacher
Minimum Education Level Master’s degree. Most colleges and universities require a doctorate degree in order to teach, but some allow those with masters degrees.

How to Become a Higher Education Teacher | TeachingDegree

LIE, I corrected your atrocious spelling not even knowing the proper abbreviation for "Doctor of Philosophy". You are pitiful.

You really don't know most of those who teach in a university are NOT a professor?

Your idol, former President Barack Hussein Obama was never a professor and yet he taught at a university. How could that happen?

You idiot. The school Obama taught at said he was a professor.

"UC Law School statement: The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer." From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School’s Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined."

 

[Markle]

You idiot. The school he taught at said he was a professor.

That's a lie. He was never a Professor, he was invited but he always remained a "guest lecturer". Something I did as well.

Do you know the difference? I didn't think so.

Q: Was Barack Obama really a constitutional law professor?

A: His formal title was "senior lecturer," but the University of Chicago Law School says he "served as a professor" and was "regarded as" a professor.

Obama a Constitutional Law Professor? - FactCheck.org

 

[BS Filter]

You have not corrected anything.

Education Requirements for Becoming a College Professor
Upon completion of a Bachelor's Degree, you would need to enter into Graduate School. College professors need at least a Master's Degree. However, in many cases, a Doctoral Degree is required as well. While in school, those desiring to become a college professor should participate in available internships or employment opportunities that could enhance their teaching and research experience. This could include holding an assistantship in Graduate School (TA) and maintaining good academic and working relationships with professors.

College Professor | Requirements | Salary | Jobs | Teacher.org

Typical Requirements to Become a Higher Education Teacher
Minimum Education Level Master’s degree. Most colleges and universities require a doctorate degree in order to teach, but some allow those with masters degrees.

How to Become a Higher Education Teacher | TeachingDegree

LIE, I corrected your atrocious spelling not even knowing the proper abbreviation for "Doctor of Philosophy". You are pitiful.

You really don't know most of those who teach in a university are NOT a professor?

Your idol, former President Barack Hussein Obama was never a professor and yet he taught at a university. How could that happen?

You idiot. The school Obama taught at said he was a professor.

"UC Law School statement: The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer." From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School’s Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined."

Elizabeth Warren is a "professor". Means nothing. There are professors and there are professors.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

This is all circumstantial. Unless somebody does a study where employers report that the only reason they hired minorities or women is because of AA, then these stories are speculation at best.

​

I can't believe I found this last night, This is a comment I posted almost a year ago on Newsvine:

" and interestingly white women have traditionally been the largest group that has benefited from affirmative action."



If that weren't so blatantly erroneous, it would be hilarious!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Mariyam] Yet you offer nothing to dispute it.


From CLEAR (Clearinghouse for Labor Evaluation and Research)


Enforcement of civil rights law in private workplaces: The effects of compliance reviews and lawsuits over time (Kalev & Dobbin 2006)


... Under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, employers are forbidden from discriminating against their employees on the basis of race, sex, color, religion, or national origin. The law prohibits discrimination in terms, compensation, working conditions, and other aspects of employment; mandates enforcement by courts, rather than juries; and provides civil penalties for violations, including mandatory remedial hiring policies for employers and reinstatement with back pay awards to victims. It also created the EEOC to bring class action litigation against employers for discrimination. The Civil Rights Act initially applied to private sector employers with more than 25 employees; since 1972, it has applied to those with more than 15 employees.



Affirmative action Executive Order 11246, signed by President Lyndon B. Johnson in 1965, reinforced prohibitions in the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and earlier executive orders against discrimination based on race, color, religion, and national origin; subsequent orders and revisions have added sex (1967) and sexual orientation and gender identity (2014) as protected classes. Order 11246 required the federal government and federal contractors with 50 or more employees or $50,000 in contracts to develop written affirmative action plans and ensure equal opportunities for all workers. The order authorized the Secretary of Labor to establish the OFCCP to enforce federal contractors’ compliance. The OFCCP targets for compliance reviews those employers whose EEO-1 reports indicate relatively low employment of women and minorities. The authors noted that the nature of compliance reviews differed over time. Relative to later reviews, reviews in the 1970s were less frequent but more intrusive and more likely to lead to sanctions.


Findings


The study found that compliance reviews initiated against an establishment in the 1970s significantly increased the share of women and African Americans it employed as managers, not only in the 1970s but also through the 1980s and 1990s. A first compliance review in the 1970s increased the odds of white women in management by an estimated 34 percent, of African American women by 18 percent, and of African American men by 28 percent.

Compliance reviews initiated in the 1970s led to significantly greater increases in female and African American employment shares than did reviews conducted in the 1980s.


Larger numbers of lawsuits significantly increased employment shares for women and African Americans.


Clearinghouse for Labor Evaluation and Research (CLEAR)
​

 

[Asclepias]

You idiot. The school he taught at said he was a professor.

That's a lie. He was never a Professor, he was invited but he always remained a "guest lecturer". Something I did as well.

Do you know the difference? I didn't think so.

Q: Was Barack Obama really a constitutional law professor?

A: His formal title was "senior lecturer," but the University of Chicago Law School says he "served as a professor" and was "regarded as" a professor.

Obama a Constitutional Law Professor? - FactCheck.org

How can it be a lie if the school says he was a professor? From your link.

"Q: Was Barack Obama really a constitutional law professor?

A: His formal title was "senior lecturer," but the University of Chicago Law School says he "served as a professor" and was "regarded as" a professor."

 

[Asclepias]

You have not corrected anything.

Education Requirements for Becoming a College Professor
Upon completion of a Bachelor's Degree, you would need to enter into Graduate School. College professors need at least a Master's Degree. However, in many cases, a Doctoral Degree is required as well. While in school, those desiring to become a college professor should participate in available internships or employment opportunities that could enhance their teaching and research experience. This could include holding an assistantship in Graduate School (TA) and maintaining good academic and working relationships with professors.

College Professor | Requirements | Salary | Jobs | Teacher.org

Typical Requirements to Become a Higher Education Teacher
Minimum Education Level Master’s degree. Most colleges and universities require a doctorate degree in order to teach, but some allow those with masters degrees.

How to Become a Higher Education Teacher | TeachingDegree

LIE, I corrected your atrocious spelling not even knowing the proper abbreviation for "Doctor of Philosophy". You are pitiful.

You really don't know most of those who teach in a university are NOT a professor?

Your idol, former President Barack Hussein Obama was never a professor and yet he taught at a university. How could that happen?

You idiot. The school Obama taught at said he was a professor.

"UC Law School statement: The Law School has received many media requests about Barack Obama, especially about his status as "Senior Lecturer." From 1992 until his election to the U.S. Senate in 2004, Barack Obama served as a professor in the Law School. He was a Lecturer from 1992 to 1996. He was a Senior Lecturer from 1996 to 2004, during which time he taught three courses per year. Senior Lecturers are considered to be members of the Law School faculty and are regarded as professors, although not full-time or tenure-track. The title of Senior Lecturer is distinct from the title of Lecturer, which signifies adjunct status. Like Obama, each of the Law School’s Senior Lecturers have high-demand careers in politics or public service, which prevent full-time teaching. Several times during his 12 years as a professor in the Law School, Obama was invited to join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position, but he declined."

Elizabeth Warren is a "professor". Means nothing. There are professors and there are professors.

Of course it means something. If it meant nothing then it wouldnt be a prestigious position you moron.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

But outside of race, I do know they can blackball you just by answering that legal question.

Blacklisting a person is illegal in most jurisdictions, at least it is in WA State (and it's a misdemeanor as well). The problem however is obtaining the proof of what they did/said, something I specialize in so to speak. People are oftentimes very honest when they think the subject of their comments will never see what they've said about them or when they have to be truthful such as answering questions presented by an investigator:

Revised Code of Washington (RCW)
RCW 49.44.010
Blacklisting—Penalty.
Every person in this state who shall wilfully and maliciously, send or deliver, or make or cause to be made, for the purpose of being delivered or sent or part with the possession of any paper, letter or writing, with or without name signed thereto, or signed with a fictitious name, or with any letter, mark or other designation, or publish or cause to be published any statement for the purpose of preventing any other person from obtaining employment in this state or elsewhere, and every person who shall wilfully and maliciously "blacklist" or cause to be "blacklisted" any person or persons, by writing, printing or publishing, or causing the same to be done, the name, or mark, or designation representing the name of any person in any paper, pamphlet, circular or book, together with any statement concerning persons so named, or publish or cause to be published that any person is a member of any secret organization, for the purpose of preventing such person from securing employment, or who shall wilfully and maliciously make or issue any statement or paper that will tend to influence or prejudice the mind of any employer against the person of such person seeking employment, or any person who shall do any of the things mentioned in this section for the purpose of causing the discharge of any person employed by any railroad or other company, corporation, individual or individuals, shall, on conviction thereof, be adjudged guilty of misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars nor more than one thousand dollars, or by imprisonment in the county jail for not less than ninety days nor more than three hundred sixty-four days, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

RCW 49.44.010: Blacklisting—Penalty.​

 

[LuckyDuck]

Affirmative action hurts those more qualified...needs to end

Agreed. One just has to ask oneself, "do I want the best quality doctor I can get or, someone who barely scraped by in college and only got in, because he/she was a minority?"

 

[Asclepias]

Affirmative action hurts those more qualified...needs to end

Agreed. One just has to ask oneself, "do I want the best quality doctor I can get or, someone who barely scraped by in college and only got in, because he/she was a minority?"

Since whites are the minority in this world this bears some serious thought.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Damn! What traits do you believe disqualifies people from ever being IN a college?

Money for one.

Occidental, Columbia? Are those community colleges? I'm not sure. Or maybe DumBama came from a very wealthy family? Not sure about that either.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Didn't I just say that?????

No. You said when jobs are given to white women nobody knows why.

Yes, and you said the same thing:

Not fake news and it's fact. When jobs are given nobody knows why.

No I didn't. .

Me: When jobs are given nobody knows why.

Ray: When jobs are given to white women, nobody knows why

I don't mean to be rude here, but are you sure you went to college??????

You questioning my education doesn't change the fact that we did not say the same thing.

This is second grade stuff here. You said when jobs are given, nobody knows why. I said the same thing with white women. Is there some kind of difference between jobs given to anybody and white women?

There is no need to answer my question about your education. I think the answer pretty obvious now. I also think your answer qualifies your claim of professional success.

However if there is any truth to your claims, it supports my point how AA is a total failure.

 

[IM2]

No. You said when jobs are given to white women nobody knows why.

Yes, and you said the same thing:

Not fake news and it's fact. When jobs are given nobody knows why.

No I didn't. .

Me: When jobs are given nobody knows why.

Ray: When jobs are given to white women, nobody knows why

I don't mean to be rude here, but are you sure you went to college??????

You questioning my education doesn't change the fact that we did not say the same thing.

This is second grade stuff here. You said when jobs are given, nobody knows why. I said the same thing with white women. Is there some kind of difference between jobs given to anybody and white women?

There is no need to answer my question about your education. I think the answer pretty obvious now. I also think your answer qualifies your claim of professional success.

However if there is any truth to your claims, it supports my point how AA is a total failure.

There is a difference because your claim was that others get jobs because if AA but once you were shown how whites were the prime benefactor suddenly we don't know that for white women. Ray, I helped build 3 businesses and retired at 52. You still work. I've done better than you, so if AA is what you say maybe you need to look for it.

 

[IM2]

Damn! What traits do you believe disqualifies people from ever being IN a college?

Money for one.

Occidental, Columbia? Are those community colleges? I'm not sure. Or maybe DumBama came from a very wealthy family? Not sure about that either.

Don't play stupid. Columbia is an Ivy League school and you know it.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Damn! What traits do you believe disqualifies people from ever being IN a college?

Money for one.

I obviously could have worded that better however money isn't a disqualifier, it can be a hindrance or financial impediment which entirely precludes attendance. By comparison, not scoring high enough on your college entrance exams is a "disqualifier" because it means you haven't met the minimum requirements for admittance, or one of the requirements.

Another way you can look at it is this. If a person is a felon convicted of certain violent crimes against a person, he is "disqualified" (also known as legally prohibited) from being in possession of a firearm, irrespective of how much money he has and can afford to spend on it. If a person is just poor but has no criminal history then he is not "disqualified" from possessing a firearm, but the cost involved may make doing so either very cumbersome or entirely prohibitive.