CDZ Alright Trump supporters, sell me.

[PredFan]

Yeah we need the baby. In this case the baby is our rights and freedoms, especially economic freedom. I understand that politicians do that, except that is, Ted Cruz, but I have seen no reason to believe that Trump will do any if it. Trumps reason for hi popularity is the promises that he is making. The wall, the immigrants, the trade deals, at least that is what people are telling me.

I don't think ANY of the candidates would , if you asked them, believe they are against freedom. So in that sense, no they aren't wanting to throw away the baby.

And Personally, I don't believe a wall will ever be built. Even if Trump were elected and 100% dead set on it, the POTUS simply doesn't have that kind of sole authority.

Hmmm, Trump has a history of not giving a shit about rights. He is very much pro eminent domain, and he wants to force companies to do things like come back to America. The freedom to conduct business as I see fit doesn't seem to sit well with him.

You're incorrect. Trump does not condone forcing any business to stay in the US. He DOES favor imposing a tarriff on products built by a company that leaves the US, but those companies are free to leave and pay those tarrifs.

And if your way of doing business is shitting on your US employees to save a few bucks, I have no problem with the government slapping you with a penalty.

If we are going to erase the $19T debt at any point, we are going to have come up with a new paradigm. Business as usual isn't going to get it done. That means taxes and penalties for companies that color outside of the lines as well as incentives for companies which do.

I DO have a problem with it. Rather than punishing businesses for doing what they should haves right to do, we should instead make it so they won't want to leave. Tariffs are the wrong answer.

He is talking about doing that as well. Carrot and stick. That's an approach that works.

I can understand disagreeing the tactic , but it is a valid tactic.

My problem though is his disregard for individual rights. In this example, the right to do business as I see fit.

 

[PredFan]

Here are my problems with Donald Trump:

1. Yes he knows business and it's a good thing, but I fear he will throw the baby out with the bath water.
2. I believe very strongly that Trump will betray all of you supporters in the end.
3. He is a liberal in his heart, and will advance many destructive liberal policies.

One additional thing, my inclination is the vote against Hillary in the general, but I am at this point, not 100% sure that I will.

You know that Hillary will be a leftist with leftist policies and appointments. 100%.

There is a non-zero percent chance the Trump will not.

Yes. I fear however that that is one of the worst of the "lesser of two evils" that I have ever witnessed.

 

[PredFan]

Here are my problems with Donald Trump:

1. Yes he knows business and it's a good thing, but I fear he will throw the baby out with the bath water.
2. I believe very strongly that Trump will betray all of you supporters in the end.
3. He is a liberal in his heart, and will advance many destructive liberal policies.

One additional thing, my inclination is the vote against Hillary in the general, but I am at this point, not 100% sure that I will.

CDZ - Alright Trump supporters, sell me.
1. At this point, I'm not sure we need the baby
2. Every politician betrays their supporters at some point, because of 2 things 1) No politician is going to support every policy view of every supporter and 2) no matter the promises we all know and understand that NO POTUS is going to single handily manage to get their entire agenda through. Though we sometimes forget that when we get upset that something wasn't accomplishment
3. He hasn't even lied about what he is. If you don't understand that he's running as a Republican out of necessity, that is not his fault. And besides, there is a reason Cruz is hooting and hollering about bathrooms and abortion and getting his ass kicked in primaries around the county. Time for conservatives to wake up, you are going to have to let some of the social issues go , that's the bottom line.

Yeah we need the baby. In this case the baby is our rights and freedoms, especially economic freedom. I understand that politicians do that, except that is, Ted Cruz, but I have seen no reason to believe that Trump will do any if it. Trumps reason for hi popularity is the promises that he is making. The wall, the immigrants, the trade deals, at least that is what people are telling me.

I don't think ANY of the candidates would , if you asked them, believe they are against freedom. So in that sense, no they aren't wanting to throw away the baby.

And Personally, I don't believe a wall will ever be built. Even if Trump were elected and 100% dead set on it, the POTUS simply doesn't have that kind of sole authority.

Hmmm, Trump has a history of not giving a shit about rights. He is very much pro eminent domain, and he wants to force companies to do things like come back to America. The freedom to conduct business as I see fit doesn't seem to sit well with him.

Yours is a very interesting criticism of Mr. Trump. He certainly has made quite a point about both the business issues you brought up. He is no "free trader" but his flat tax plan is an enormous tax cut for the wealthy.

A flat tax is a tax cut for everyone except those who currently pay no taxes.

 

[Correll]

Here are my problems with Donald Trump:

1. Yes he knows business and it's a good thing, but I fear he will throw the baby out with the bath water.
2. I believe very strongly that Trump will betray all of you supporters in the end.
3. He is a liberal in his heart, and will advance many destructive liberal policies.

One additional thing, my inclination is the vote against Hillary in the general, but I am at this point, not 100% sure that I will.

You know that Hillary will be a leftist with leftist policies and appointments. 100%.

There is a non-zero percent chance the Trump will not.

Yes. I fear however that that is one of the worst of the "lesser of two evils" that I have ever witnessed.

That is the worst case scenario.

And as I pointed out, in the WORST CASE scenario, it still makes more sense to vote for Trump.

Now,

Imagine just a few ways, it could be better.


1. He could successfully lower the number of illegals and visa workers, thus reducing supply for labor and thus increasing wages.

2. He could successfully negotiate better trade deals to bring back significant numbers of manufacturing jobs.

3. He could reduce tensions with Russia, to the increased safety of US all.


There is no chance that Hillary will do ANY of these. She is against those policies.

 

[Boss]

A flat tax is a tax cut for everyone except those who currently pay no taxes.

Well, Trump has said that he plans to "raise taxes on the rich" ...his words. So, not only do I expect he will increase the top marginal tax rates, he has completely conceded the long-standing conservative argument that "the rich" aren't who pay taxes... we don't tax wealth in this country, we tax INCOME.

As for his policy on tariffs and trade, he is articulating from a business perspective, almost the exact same ideas as one, Herbert Hoover... and we know how that turned out. Heavy tariffs and restrictive trade policies end up biting us in the ass economically because we aren't a 'producing' nation... that's even more true now than in Hoover's time.

It sounds good.. sounds like importers are going to have to pay for the privilege of selling their products here... but that's not how it works. They simply pass that cost on to the consumer so what Trump is actually telling us is, we have to pay top dollar for cheap inferior goods from other countries. That won't "help" anyone.

 

[Correll]

A flat tax is a tax cut for everyone except those who currently pay no taxes.

Well, Trump has said that he plans to "raise taxes on the rich" ...his words. So, not only do I expect he will increase the top marginal tax rates, he has completely conceded the long-standing conservative argument that "the rich" aren't who pay taxes... we don't tax wealth in this country, we tax INCOME.

As for his policy on tariffs and trade, he is articulating from a business perspective, almost the exact same ideas as one, Herbert Hoover... and we know how that turned out. Heavy tariffs and restrictive trade policies end up biting us in the ass economically because we aren't a 'producing' nation... that's even more true now than in Hoover's time.

It sounds good.. sounds like importers are going to have to pay for the privilege of selling their products here... but that's not how it works. They simply pass that cost on to the consumer so what Trump is actually telling us is, we have to pay top dollar for cheap inferior goods from other countries. That won't "help" anyone.

We have restrictive trade policies now. They are just in nations that we are trying to trade with, targeted at US.

If they pass cost on to the consumer, then any American producer, or even any producer from a nation that has a better trade policy with/for US, will become competitive and those jobs and profits will end up somewhere else.

 

[Boss]

We have restrictive trade policies now. They are just in nations that we are trying to trade with, targeted at US.

If they pass cost on to the consumer, then any American producer, or even any producer from a nation that has a better trade policy with/for US, will become competitive and those jobs and profits will end up somewhere else.

Maybe, maybe not... we don't know. It didn't work back in Hoover's day because there wasn't any money to start new businesses. It just caused prices to skyrocket and certain things to become in short supply. Protectionist trade policy isn't good for a consumerist nation. Hey, I am all for having fair trade deals and Trump makes a really great point about the deals we've made being stupid deals made by stupid people. I can't argue with that... but I am not so sure that what he has in mind is any kind of acceptable solution to the problem, it might make things considerably worse... but hey, you can't tell a Trump supporter that-- they won't listen to reason on anything anymore.

 

[LoneLaugher]

We have restrictive trade policies now. They are just in nations that we are trying to trade with, targeted at US.

If they pass cost on to the consumer, then any American producer, or even any producer from a nation that has a better trade policy with/for US, will become competitive and those jobs and profits will end up somewhere else.

Maybe, maybe not... we don't know. It didn't work back in Hoover's day because there wasn't any money to start new businesses. It just caused prices to skyrocket and certain things to become in short supply. Protectionist trade policy isn't good for a consumerist nation. Hey, I am all for having fair trade deals and Trump makes a really great point about the deals we've made being stupid deals made by stupid people. I can't argue with that... but I am not so sure that what he has in mind is any kind of acceptable solution to the problem, it might make things considerably worse... but hey, you can't tell a Trump supporter that-- they won't listen to reason on anything anymore.

And....there is the first insult. I'll bet you don't think what you just said was insulting, though.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

 

[Luddly Neddite]

 

[Fishlore]

CDZ - Alright Trump supporters, sell me.
1. At this point, I'm not sure we need the baby
2. Every politician betrays their supporters at some point, because of 2 things 1) No politician is going to support every policy view of every supporter and 2) no matter the promises we all know and understand that NO POTUS is going to single handily manage to get their entire agenda through. Though we sometimes forget that when we get upset that something wasn't accomplishment
3. He hasn't even lied about what he is. If you don't understand that he's running as a Republican out of necessity, that is not his fault. And besides, there is a reason Cruz is hooting and hollering about bathrooms and abortion and getting his ass kicked in primaries around the county. Time for conservatives to wake up, you are going to have to let some of the social issues go , that's the bottom line.

Yeah we need the baby. In this case the baby is our rights and freedoms, especially economic freedom. I understand that politicians do that, except that is, Ted Cruz, but I have seen no reason to believe that Trump will do any if it. Trumps reason for hi popularity is the promises that he is making. The wall, the immigrants, the trade deals, at least that is what people are telling me.

I don't think ANY of the candidates would , if you asked them, believe they are against freedom. So in that sense, no they aren't wanting to throw away the baby.

And Personally, I don't believe a wall will ever be built. Even if Trump were elected and 100% dead set on it, the POTUS simply doesn't have that kind of sole authority.

Hmmm, Trump has a history of not giving a shit about rights. He is very much pro eminent domain, and he wants to force companies to do things like come back to America. The freedom to conduct business as I see fit doesn't seem to sit well with him.

Yours is a very interesting criticism of Mr. Trump. He certainly has made quite a point about both the business issues you brought up. He is no "free trader" but his flat tax plan is an enormous tax cut for the wealthy.

A flat tax is a tax cut for everyone except those who currently pay no taxes.

Well, of course, that depends on the flat tax rate. Whatever the rate, taxpayers currently paying a lower rate experience a tax hike. This could be the case for millions of Americans if the flat tax cancels the earned income tax credit and other deductions applicable to low income tax payers

The open secret about the various flat tax proposals floated by conservatives is that the highest flat rate that poor and working people could possibly pay would, when applied to the upper 20%, produce a huge tax cut. It would, in consequence, result in a dramatic reduction in government revenue. That reduction would mean either an explosion of the federal deficit or -- and this is the real agenda behind the flat tax proposals -- draconian cuts in health, education and welfare for a majority of Americans.

You will never find a flat tax advocate who does not favor slashing all entitlements. That's the motive for the flat tax and the reason that no advanced democracy uses it.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

CDZ - Alright Trump supporters, sell me.
1. At this point, I'm not sure we need the baby
2. Every politician betrays their supporters at some point, because of 2 things 1) No politician is going to support every policy view of every supporter and 2) no matter the promises we all know and understand that NO POTUS is going to single handily manage to get their entire agenda through. Though we sometimes forget that when we get upset that something wasn't accomplishment
3. He hasn't even lied about what he is. If you don't understand that he's running as a Republican out of necessity, that is not his fault. And besides, there is a reason Cruz is hooting and hollering about bathrooms and abortion and getting his ass kicked in primaries around the county. Time for conservatives to wake up, you are going to have to let some of the social issues go , that's the bottom line.

Yeah we need the baby. In this case the baby is our rights and freedoms, especially economic freedom. I understand that politicians do that, except that is, Ted Cruz, but I have seen no reason to believe that Trump will do any if it. Trumps reason for hi popularity is the promises that he is making. The wall, the immigrants, the trade deals, at least that is what people are telling me.

I don't think ANY of the candidates would , if you asked them, believe they are against freedom. So in that sense, no they aren't wanting to throw away the baby.

And Personally, I don't believe a wall will ever be built. Even if Trump were elected and 100% dead set on it, the POTUS simply doesn't have that kind of sole authority.

Hmmm, Trump has a history of not giving a shit about rights. He is very much pro eminent domain, and he wants to force companies to do things like come back to America. The freedom to conduct business as I see fit doesn't seem to sit well with him.

Yours is a very interesting criticism of Mr. Trump. He certainly has made quite a point about both the business issues you brought up. He is no "free trader" but his flat tax plan is an enormous tax cut for the wealthy.

A flat tax is a tax cut for everyone except those who currently pay no taxes.

OMGd. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Seriously, you need to educate yourself cuz that's just hooey.

Bottom line is that no one can ever come up with a defense for the GOP or Trumpery's plan for the working class.

Ask yourself this -

How is Trumpery gonna pay for what he wants to do? Never mind the idiotic "wall". It ain't gonna happen.

What about the rest of his pie in the sky bloviating?

Where is the money gonna come from?

Hint: Trumpery in the pocket of the 1%, big business an big banks and they're not looking to put money in YOUR pocket.

 

[MarathonMike]

He can be crude, he has an ego as big as New York but the guy is a true American right down to his bones. That is what we haven't had, and that is what we need. Obama's plan all along was to pull a fast one on America and he did. Trump will never do that, he has been rewarded more than any man deserves to be by this country and at this point in his life he knows he can do something that is bigger and more important than himself. I think that is his motivation.

 

[PredFan]

Here are my problems with Donald Trump:

1. Yes he knows business and it's a good thing, but I fear he will throw the baby out with the bath water.
2. I believe very strongly that Trump will betray all of you supporters in the end.
3. He is a liberal in his heart, and will advance many destructive liberal policies.

One additional thing, my inclination is the vote against Hillary in the general, but I am at this point, not 100% sure that I will.

You know that Hillary will be a leftist with leftist policies and appointments. 100%.

There is a non-zero percent chance the Trump will not.

Yes. I fear however that that is one of the worst of the "lesser of two evils" that I have ever witnessed.

That is the worst case scenario.

And as I pointed out, in the WORST CASE scenario, it still makes more sense to vote for Trump.

Now,

Imagine just a few ways, it could be better.


1. He could successfully lower the number of illegals and visa workers, thus reducing supply for labor and thus increasing wages.

2. He could successfully negotiate better trade deals to bring back significant numbers of manufacturing jobs.

3. He could reduce tensions with Russia, to the increased safety of US all.


There is no chance that Hillary will do ANY of these. She is against those policies.

1. Increased wages will lead to increased prices.
2. Trade deals aren't what causes jobs to go over seas.
3. Russia is not a threat to us.

But, your point about voting against Hillary is of course a good one, if he ends up actually being different from her. We must hope.

 

[PredFan]

Hey, this is the CDZ, unless I'm mistaken, you also have to stick to the subject. No trolling. This thread asked Trump supporters a question. I know you aren't a Trump supporter so it's time for you to butt out.

 

[PredFan]

Yeah we need the baby. In this case the baby is our rights and freedoms, especially economic freedom. I understand that politicians do that, except that is, Ted Cruz, but I have seen no reason to believe that Trump will do any if it. Trumps reason for hi popularity is the promises that he is making. The wall, the immigrants, the trade deals, at least that is what people are telling me.

I don't think ANY of the candidates would , if you asked them, believe they are against freedom. So in that sense, no they aren't wanting to throw away the baby.

And Personally, I don't believe a wall will ever be built. Even if Trump were elected and 100% dead set on it, the POTUS simply doesn't have that kind of sole authority.

Hmmm, Trump has a history of not giving a shit about rights. He is very much pro eminent domain, and he wants to force companies to do things like come back to America. The freedom to conduct business as I see fit doesn't seem to sit well with him.

Yours is a very interesting criticism of Mr. Trump. He certainly has made quite a point about both the business issues you brought up. He is no "free trader" but his flat tax plan is an enormous tax cut for the wealthy.

A flat tax is a tax cut for everyone except those who currently pay no taxes.

OMGd. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Seriously, you need to educate yourself cuz that's just hooey.

Bottom line is that no one can ever come up with a defense for the GOP or Trumpery's plan for the working class.

Ask yourself this -

How is Trumpery gonna pay for what he wants to do? Never mind the idiotic "wall". It ain't gonna happen.

What about the rest of his pie in the sky bloviating?

Where is the money gonna come from?

Hint: Trumpery in the pocket of the 1%, big business an big banks and they're not looking to put money in YOUR pocket.

You too, out. You aren't Trump supporters and you are running this thread off the rails. You don't belong here, it's the CDZ and you are trolling.

 

[PredFan]

He can be crude, he has an ego as big as New York but the guy is a true American right down to his bones. That is what we haven't had, and that is what we need. Obama's plan all along was to pull a fast one on America and he did. Trump will never do that, he has been rewarded more than any man deserves to be by this country and at this point in his life he knows he can do something that is bigger and more important than himself. I think that is his motivation.

George Bush was a true American, possibly more America loving than Trump, but yeah, compared to 0bama and Hillary......

 

[Correll]

We have restrictive trade policies now. They are just in nations that we are trying to trade with, targeted at US.

If they pass cost on to the consumer, then any American producer, or even any producer from a nation that has a better trade policy with/for US, will become competitive and those jobs and profits will end up somewhere else.

Maybe, maybe not... we don't know. It didn't work back in Hoover's day because there wasn't any money to start new businesses. It just caused prices to skyrocket and certain things to become in short supply. Protectionist trade policy isn't good for a consumerist nation. Hey, I am all for having fair trade deals and Trump makes a really great point about the deals we've made being stupid deals made by stupid people. I can't argue with that... but I am not so sure that what he has in mind is any kind of acceptable solution to the problem, it might make things considerably worse... but hey, you can't tell a Trump supporter that-- they won't listen to reason on anything anymore.

So, you agree our current trade deals are stupid.

That's good.

Hopefully we will see how Trump does in the actual negotiations.

At least he will be TRYING to represent American interests.

And he won't be the only person in the room.

Hell, most of the negotiations will be handled by lower level people with only a goal provided by the President.

 

[Boss]

We have restrictive trade policies now. They are just in nations that we are trying to trade with, targeted at US.

If they pass cost on to the consumer, then any American producer, or even any producer from a nation that has a better trade policy with/for US, will become competitive and those jobs and profits will end up somewhere else.

Maybe, maybe not... we don't know. It didn't work back in Hoover's day because there wasn't any money to start new businesses. It just caused prices to skyrocket and certain things to become in short supply. Protectionist trade policy isn't good for a consumerist nation. Hey, I am all for having fair trade deals and Trump makes a really great point about the deals we've made being stupid deals made by stupid people. I can't argue with that... but I am not so sure that what he has in mind is any kind of acceptable solution to the problem, it might make things considerably worse... but hey, you can't tell a Trump supporter that-- they won't listen to reason on anything anymore.

So, you agree our current trade deals are stupid.

That's good.

Hopefully we will see how Trump does in the actual negotiations.

At least he will be TRYING to represent American interests.

And he won't be the only person in the room.

Hell, most of the negotiations will be handled by lower level people with only a goal provided by the President.

Well, the truth is... most of our trade deals aren't going to be renegotiated.

You see, these trade deals involve billions and trillions of dollars in capital investment, therefore, they are generally set up for 20 years or more with very few caveats for renegotiation. Unless both countries mutually agree to renegotiate, we're stuck with the deals we've made.

Now... our previous negotiators... I don't think they weren't trying to represent American interests. It's like sending a moron to buy a new car.... he may have your best interest at heart but he's a moron so he probably won't make the best deal for the car you want. Still, once he has made the deal and you've taken ownership of the car, you can't go back to the dealer next week and say... let's renegotiate this deal! Doesn't work like that.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

We have restrictive trade policies now. They are just in nations that we are trying to trade with, targeted at US.

If they pass cost on to the consumer, then any American producer, or even any producer from a nation that has a better trade policy with/for US, will become competitive and those jobs and profits will end up somewhere else.

Maybe, maybe not... we don't know. It didn't work back in Hoover's day because there wasn't any money to start new businesses. It just caused prices to skyrocket and certain things to become in short supply. Protectionist trade policy isn't good for a consumerist nation. Hey, I am all for having fair trade deals and Trump makes a really great point about the deals we've made being stupid deals made by stupid people. I can't argue with that... but I am not so sure that what he has in mind is any kind of acceptable solution to the problem, it might make things considerably worse... but hey, you can't tell a Trump supporter that-- they won't listen to reason on anything anymore.

So, you agree our current trade deals are stupid.

That's good.

Hopefully we will see how Trump does in the actual negotiations.

At least he will be TRYING to represent American interests.

And he won't be the only person in the room.

Hell, most of the negotiations will be handled by lower level people with only a goal provided by the President.

Well, the truth is... most of our trade deals aren't going to be renegotiated.

You see, these trade deals involve billions and trillions of dollars in capital investment, therefore, they are generally set up for 20 years or more with very few caveats for renegotiation. Unless both countries mutually agree to renegotiate, we're stuck with the deals we've made.

Now... our previous negotiators... I don't think they weren't trying to represent American interests. It's like sending a moron to buy a new car.... he may have your best interest at heart but he's a moron so he probably won't make the best deal for the car you want. Still, once he has made the deal and you've taken ownership of the car, you can't go back to the dealer next week and say... let's renegotiate this deal! Doesn't work like that.

That is, of course, untrue. We can cancel any trade deals we have with impunity, we aren't locked into anything.