America Before the Entitlement State

[Bfgrn]

I just wish our leftist friends could get it through their heads that people like me see things being BETTER for everybody when the government does not presume to be mother, father, and sugar daddy to large constituencies.

Just as I wish our rightist friends could get it through their heads that the bolded is a contrivance and myth of the own making; ‘government’ has made no such presumption and no one of any political philosophy advocates such nonsense.

It is the same old polarized crap. Our right wing friends always make the black/white argument... If you are not for government to evaporate, then you must be for government to run your lives. It is a childish mindset.

 

[dblack]

It is the same old polarized crap. Our right wing friends always make the black/white argument... If you are not for government to evaporate, then you must be for government to run your lives. It is a childish mindset.

Yup. And the left is just as happy to accuse anyone not in favor of increasing dependency on government of hating the poor, or being heartless and cruel ("Let him die!!"). Idiocy has no party affiliation.

 

[Bfgrn]

It is the same old polarized crap. Our right wing friends always make the black/white argument... If you are not for government to evaporate, then you must be for government to run your lives. It is a childish mindset.

Yup. And the left is just as happy to accuse anyone not in favor of increasing dependency on government of hating the poor, or being heartless and cruel ("Let him die!!"). Idiocy has no party affiliation.

People DO die. Policies DO matter. We don't live in a vacuum. I advocate dependency on government to protect the lives of We, the People. Do you?

 

[dblack]

People DO die. Policies DO matter. We don't live in a vacuum. I advocate dependency on government to protect the lives of We, the People. Do you?

In my opinion, the coercive power of government should be reserved for protecting us from bullies. Setting up government as our 'provider' is a dangerous dependency, and should be avoided.

What I was pointing out is that, despite your stated distaste for 'polarized crap' and 'black/white argument', you indulge the same 'childish mindset' when you assume that my distrust of government dependency means I don't believe society should care for those who fall through the cracks. I think we should. I just don't think government is the proper tool for the job.

 

[Bfgrn]

People DO die. Policies DO matter. We don't live in a vacuum. I advocate dependency on government to protect the lives of We, the People. Do you?

In my opinion, the coercive power of government should be reserved for protecting us from bullies. Setting up government as our 'provider' is a dangerous dependency, and should be avoided.

What I was pointing out is that, despite your stated distaste for 'polarized crap' and 'black/white argument', you indulge the same 'childish mindset' when you assume that my distrust of government dependency means I don't believe society should care for those who fall through the cracks. I think we should. I just don't think government is the proper tool for the job.

HOW??? History just doesn't support your beliefs. We tried a 'charity only' society...it failed.

 

[dblack]

HOW??? History just doesn't support your beliefs. We tried a 'charity only' society...it failed.

However we want. I just don't believe we need to resort to brute force to accomplish a compassionate society. Indeed, if that's what it takes, I'm not sure it's even accurate to call it 'compassion' at that point.

 

[Uncensored2008]

So what you are saying is the only conservatism that exists is in America.

If that were what I was saying, I would have said it. This discussion regards American politics. If we were discussing 17th century Prussian politics, your claims would still be wrong, but at least in the realm of rational

The rest of the world is defined by YOUR parochial indoctrination.

You have attempted to create a straw man, you got called on it. Try to make an argument without the use of logical fallacy.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Now I understand the right's definition of individual responsibility: You right wing turds don't buy insurance, when you get in a wreck, it's MY personal responsibility to pay for YOU...

Newt was right; "I'm looking at somebody who is absolutely as irresponsible as anyone who was ever on welfare."

It is your position that you come out ahead in a debate by lying through your fucking teeth?

 

[Bfgrn]

So what you are saying is the only conservatism that exists is in America.

If that were what I was saying, I would have said it. This discussion regards American politics. If we were discussing 17th century Prussian politics, your claims would still be wrong, but at least in the realm of rational

The rest of the world is defined by YOUR parochial indoctrination.

You have attempted to create a straw man, you got called on it. Try to make an argument without the use of logical fallacy.

You really are confused...

YOU want to make it about American politics, but only after after YOU used despots from other countries to attempt to dismiss the FACT:

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.

 

[Bfgrn]

HOW??? History just doesn't support your beliefs. We tried a 'charity only' society...it failed.

However we want. I just don't believe we need to resort to brute force to accomplish a compassionate society. Indeed, if that's what it takes, I'm not sure it's even accurate to call it 'compassion' at that point.

Social Security, Medicare and programs like Head Start and Jobs Corp are 'brute force'???

 

[dblack]

HOW??? History just doesn't support your beliefs. We tried a 'charity only' society...it failed.

However we want. I just don't believe we need to resort to brute force to accomplish a compassionate society. Indeed, if that's what it takes, I'm not sure it's even accurate to call it 'compassion' at that point.

Social Security, Medicare and programs like Head Start and Jobs Corp are 'brute force'???

Ultimately, yes. The monopoly on force is the aspect that distinguishes government from all other societal institutions. In other words, participation in those programs isn't voluntary.

 

[Uncensored2008]

You really are confused...

If I would only accept Barack Obama as my personal lord and fuhrer it would end the confusion.

YOU want to make it about American politics,

Yeah, why would "America before the entitlement state" be about American politics, clearly it's about Belgian social policy....

but only after after YOU used despots from other countries to attempt to dismiss the FACT:

No stupid, you tossed out a little hate slogan from one of the hate sites you frequent. The slogan was a lie penned by a fucking moron, so I posted fact to prove that the fucking moron was lying.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.

Which has been demonstrated to be a lie. You are merely aping the words of a demagogue and a hate monger.

 

[Bfgrn]

You really are confused...

If I would only accept Barack Obama as my personal lord and fuhrer it would end the confusion.

YOU want to make it about American politics,

Yeah, why would "America before the entitlement state" be about American politics, clearly it's about Belgian social policy....

but only after after YOU used despots from other countries to attempt to dismiss the FACT:

No stupid, you tossed out a little hate slogan from one of the hate sites you frequent. The slogan was a lie penned by a fucking moron, so I posted fact to prove that the fucking moron was lying.

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.

Which has been demonstrated to be a lie. You are merely aping the words of a demagogue and a hate monger.

OK, then simply tell me what tenets, orthodoxy, economics and political beliefs a conservative in Russia would embrace.

 

[Uncensored2008]

OK, then simply tell me what tenets, orthodoxy, economics and political beliefs a conservative in Russia would embrace.

Sure, right after you explain the mating habit of tetsee flies in the Antarctic....

 

[Bfgrn]

However we want. I just don't believe we need to resort to brute force to accomplish a compassionate society. Indeed, if that's what it takes, I'm not sure it's even accurate to call it 'compassion' at that point.

Social Security, Medicare and programs like Head Start and Jobs Corp are 'brute force'???

Ultimately, yes. The monopoly on force is the aspect that distinguishes government from all other societal institutions. In other words, participation in those programs isn't voluntary.

Social Security is social insurance. It's not just a retirement program.

It includes:

Federal Old-Age (Retirement), Survivors, and Disability Insurance
Unemployment benefits
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Health Insurance for Aged and Disabled (Medicare)
Grants to States for Medical Assistance Programs (Medicaid)
State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

SO...when the recent economic crisis hit, and millions of people lost their jobs due to nothing they did wrong, you would leave them out in the cold... of course, they could BEG.

Hey, you have the right to your beliefs, just don't try to pass off this BULLSHIT:

"Yup. And the left is just as happy to accuse anyone not in favor of increasing dependency on government of hating the poor, or being heartless and cruel ("Let him die!!"). Idiocy has no party affiliation."

You can't SAY you care, and NOT care...

 

[dblack]

SO...when the recent economic crisis hit, and millions of people lost their jobs due to nothing they did wrong, you would leave them out in the cold... of course, they could BEG.

Hey, you have the right to your beliefs, just don't try to pass off this BULLSHIT:

"Yup. And the left is just as happy to accuse anyone not in favor of increasing dependency on government of hating the poor, or being heartless and cruel ("Let him die!!"). Idiocy has no party affiliation."

You can't SAY you care, and NOT care...

See this is what I'm talking about. Your view is at least as stilted and black/white as those you're criticizing. You're stuck in this rut which insists the only way to 'care' is to support compulsive government programs. And anyone who doesn't support your preferred solution doesn't care. Are you seriously that closed minded?

 

[Intense]

So what you are saying is the only conservatism that exists is in America.

If that were what I was saying, I would have said it. This discussion regards American politics. If we were discussing 17th century Prussian politics, your claims would still be wrong, but at least in the realm of rational

The rest of the world is defined by YOUR parochial indoctrination.

You have attempted to create a straw man, you got called on it. Try to make an argument without the use of logical fallacy.

You really are confused...

YOU want to make it about American politics, but only after after YOU used despots from other countries to attempt to dismiss the FACT:

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.

That's actually not true at all. Statist Progressive is about as Authoritarian and Totalitarian as it gets. True Conservatism is about as Federalist it gets. That translates to Pro Individual Liberty.

 

[Intense]

Social Security, Medicare and programs like Head Start and Jobs Corp are 'brute force'???

Ultimately, yes. The monopoly on force is the aspect that distinguishes government from all other societal institutions. In other words, participation in those programs isn't voluntary.

Social Security is social insurance. It's not just a retirement program.

It includes:

Federal Old-Age (Retirement), Survivors, and Disability Insurance
Unemployment benefits
Temporary Assistance for Needy Families
Health Insurance for Aged and Disabled (Medicare)
Grants to States for Medical Assistance Programs (Medicaid)
State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP)
Supplemental Security Income (SSI)
Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act

SO...when the recent economic crisis hit, and millions of people lost their jobs due to nothing they did wrong, you would leave them out in the cold... of course, they could BEG.

Hey, you have the right to your beliefs, just don't try to pass off this BULLSHIT:

"Yup. And the left is just as happy to accuse anyone not in favor of increasing dependency on government of hating the poor, or being heartless and cruel ("Let him die!!"). Idiocy has no party affiliation."

You can't SAY you care, and NOT care...

I support it as a Safety Net, which would indeed have both Purpose and Limit. I do not support Limitless Economic Black Holes, nor do I consider questioning anything about it as an attack. In all things checks and balances, and a true account of where the money is spent.

 

[Foxfyre]

If that were what I was saying, I would have said it. This discussion regards American politics. If we were discussing 17th century Prussian politics, your claims would still be wrong, but at least in the realm of rational



You have attempted to create a straw man, you got called on it. Try to make an argument without the use of logical fallacy.

You really are confused...

YOU want to make it about American politics, but only after after YOU used despots from other countries to attempt to dismiss the FACT:

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.

That's actually not true at all. Statist Progressive is about as Authoritarian and Totalitarian as it gets. True Conservatism is about as Federalist it gets. That translates to Pro Individual Liberty.

Exactly. Who is uneducated enough to classify Lenin, Stalin, or Chairman Mao as 'conservative'.

 

[Bfgrn]

You really are confused...

YOU want to make it about American politics, but only after after YOU used despots from other countries to attempt to dismiss the FACT:

While not all conservatives are authoritarians; all highly authoritarian personalities are political conservatives.

That's actually not true at all. Statist Progressive is about as Authoritarian and Totalitarian as it gets. True Conservatism is about as Federalist it gets. That translates to Pro Individual Liberty.

Exactly. Who is uneducated enough to classify Lenin, Stalin, or Chairman Mao as 'conservative'.

You are also confused. WHAT is conservatism? A conservative in Russia would not want to 'conserve' capitalism, he would want to conserve communism.

Socialism is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the economy works. Democracy is liberal. More people (preferably everyone) have some say in how the government works. "Democracy," said Marx, "is the road to socialism." He was wrong about how economics and politics interact, but he did see their similar underpinnings.

Communism is conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just the Party Secretary) have any say in how the economy works. Republicans are conservative. Fewer and fewer people (preferably just people controlling the Party figurehead) have any say in how the government works.

What Mao Zedong said about liberalism

"Liberalism is extremely harmful in a revolutionary collective. It is a corrosive which eats away unity, undermines cohesion, causes apathy and creates dissension.

It robs the revolutionary ranks of compact organization and strict discipline, prevents policies from being carried through and alienates the Party organizations from the masses which the Party leads."