Ancient Church Fathers by Ken Johnson Th.d.

[Chuckt]

Ancient Church Fathers (What the Disciples of the Apostles taught) by Ken Johnson Th.d

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Church-Fathers-Ken-Johnson-ebook/dp/B008XLSZ6O/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1405812852&sr=1-1&keywords=ancient+church+fathers[/ame]

I found some teachings on the rapture in this book. And, yes, the rapture was taught.

Irenaeus, AD 170

Against Heresies 5.29 - When in the end that church will suddenly be caught up from this, it is said, "There will be tribulation such as not been since the beginning, nor will be."

Tertullian, AD 207

Against Marcion 5.16 He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, "...By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones?"

See page 105.

[MENTION=29246]The Irish Ram[/MENTION] [MENTION=47390]DriftingSand[/MENTION] [MENTION=23262]peach174[/MENTION] [MENTION=46796]shart_attack[/MENTION] [MENTION=19943]THE LIGHT[/MENTION] [MENTION=26500]Youwerecreated[/MENTION]

 

[Chuckt]

Found it in the commentary:

Isaiah 60:8 Commentaries: "Who are these who fly like a cloud And like the doves to their lattices?

 

[DriftingSand]

The Catholic Church uses many of the teachings of the "Church Fathers" to justify a number of their traditions. I own and have read many of the writings of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene, and Post-Nicene fathers. Many of their writings are in line with Scripture but some stray from the mark.

I do believe that Christians will be "caught up" with Christ upon His return but His return will be after the great tribulation according to Scripture. I posted a short study on the issue a couple of weeks ago but I realize it's kinda long so I didn't expect anyone to actually read it. If they had, the issue would be settled. Whatever the case, the issue is settled in my heart and mind which is why I'm bracing myself for the great tribulation (should it occur in our time).

I feel sorry for those who believe they will be *poofed* off of the face of the earth before a great tribulation. Christians throughout the ages have suffered tribulations (some of them very great). I see no reason why end time Christians will be spared tribulation when no other Christians in the history of Christianity have been spared the opportunity to exercise their faith. Like Job, tribulation is a time for one to truly test his/her faith in the face of adversity and trial.

 

[Chuckt]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

 

[DriftingSand]

Tertullian, AD 207

Against Marcion 5.16 He [Paul] says those who remain unto the coming of Christ along with the dead in Christ, will rise first, being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, "...By the mouth of Isaiah, it was said long ago "who are these who fly like clouds unto me, as doves with their young ones?"

"The dead in Christ -- WILL RISE FIRST."

Within that statement lies the key. When Christ returns the "dead in Christ will rise first." According to Scripture, when does the dead in Christ rise?

John 6:39, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

John 6:40, "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54, "Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 11:23-24, "Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

The "dead in Christ" will be raised or resurrected on "the last day." This is the last day of earth's existence as we know it. Thereafter we will see a "new heaven" and a "new earth" after the return of Jesus Christ (who will return at the sounding of the 7th and final "trump of God." The previous 6 trumps announce various stages of major tribulation). (See Revelation 8:2, 7, 8, 10, & 12; Revelation 9:1 & 13; and Revelation 11:15).

 

[DriftingSand]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

They were spared but they weren't raptured. They were saved in the midst of tribulation and saw and experienced the tribulation of those times but weren't harmed by it. Their faith was rewarded for trusting in God in the midst of and during those times of trial.

 

[Chuckt]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

They were spared but they weren't raptured. They were saved in the midst of tribulation and saw and experienced the tribulation of those times but weren't harmed by it. Their faith was rewarded for trusting in God in the midst of and during those times of trial.

They were both types of rapture. The eight soals were lifted up over the earth and saved from wrath and Lot was taken out and spared before God's judgment.

 

[DriftingSand]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

Another point to consider is the fact that Christ had taken the punishment for His Apostles but many were killed as a result of their belief in Christ. Stephen was stoned to death; Peter was crucified upside down; etc. The Deaths of the 12 Apostles | When & How the 12 Apostles died.

The faithful Waldensians and Albigensians were massacred due to their faith in the written Word. The Bolsheviks massacred the Russian Christians. King George killed many Christians who didn't adhere to the teachings of the Church of England. And the list goes on. Christ died for all of these Christians and paid their penalty for sin yet millions have died a martyr's death.

 

[Chuckt]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

Another point to consider is the fact that Christ had taken the punishment for His Apostles but many were killed as a result of their belief in Christ. Stephen was stoned to death; Peter was crucified upside down; etc. The Deaths of the 12 Apostles | When & How the 12 Apostles died.

The faithful Waldensians and Albigensians were massacred due to their faith in the written Word. The Bolsheviks massacred the Russian Christians. King George killed many Christians who didn't adhere to the teachings of the Church of England. And the list goes on. Christ died for all of these Christians and paid their penalty for sin yet millions have died a martyr's death.

True but that was the wrath of men. The end is the wrath of God.

 

[DriftingSand]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

They were spared but they weren't raptured. They were saved in the midst of tribulation and saw and experienced the tribulation of those times but weren't harmed by it. Their faith was rewarded for trusting in God in the midst of and during those times of trial.

They were both types of rapture. The eight soals were lifted up over the earth and saved from wrath and Lot was taken out and spared before God's judgment.

True but those 8 souls were in vessels made from earth's materials and were floating on the tossing ocean in the midst of the raging sea and the torrential rains. So we can consider it a type of "rapture" but certainly not a rapture as taught be pre-trib teachers. Pre-trib teachers say that Christians will be removed from the surface of the earth before any tribulation occurs yet Noah and his family felt and witnessed the heaving of the sea and the pounding of the heavy rain.

 

[DriftingSand]

They were spared in Sodom and through the ark. The difference is this is the iudgment of God where He pours out His wrath on non-believers and there is no reason to punish those who believe because Jesus already took our punishment.

Another point to consider is the fact that Christ had taken the punishment for His Apostles but many were killed as a result of their belief in Christ. Stephen was stoned to death; Peter was crucified upside down; etc. The Deaths of the 12 Apostles | When & How the 12 Apostles died.

The faithful Waldensians and Albigensians were massacred due to their faith in the written Word. The Bolsheviks massacred the Russian Christians. King George killed many Christians who didn't adhere to the teachings of the Church of England. And the list goes on. Christ died for all of these Christians and paid their penalty for sin yet millions have died a martyr's death.

True but that was the wrath of men. The end is the wrath of God.

Then I think it would be best for you to just wait to be lifted away. But beware of these verses:

Revelation 6:9, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

John 16:2, "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Matthew 24:9, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Revelation 12:11, "They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses indicate that Christians will suffer some sort of trial and tribulation IMHO.

 

[Chuckt]

Another point to consider is the fact that Christ had taken the punishment for His Apostles but many were killed as a result of their belief in Christ. Stephen was stoned to death; Peter was crucified upside down; etc. The Deaths of the 12 Apostles | When & How the 12 Apostles died.

The faithful Waldensians and Albigensians were massacred due to their faith in the written Word. The Bolsheviks massacred the Russian Christians. King George killed many Christians who didn't adhere to the teachings of the Church of England. And the list goes on. Christ died for all of these Christians and paid their penalty for sin yet millions have died a martyr's death.

True but that was the wrath of men. The end is the wrath of God.

Then I think it would be best for you to just wait to be lifted away. But beware of these verses:

Revelation 6:9, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

John 16:2, "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Matthew 24:9, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Revelation 12:11, "They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses indicate that Christians will suffer some sort of trial and tribulation IMHO.

Not necessarily. These are post rapture believers who believe either because of the 144,000 witnesses who hold a revival or because of the signs and the rapture. There is much of the unbelieving church who may return to God after the rapture.

Doesn't everyone want to believe if God would only show them proof? Here is their chance.

 

[DriftingSand]

True but that was the wrath of men. The end is the wrath of God.

Then I think it would be best for you to just wait to be lifted away. But beware of these verses:

Revelation 6:9, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

John 16:2, "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Matthew 24:9, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Revelation 12:11, "They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses indicate that Christians will suffer some sort of trial and tribulation IMHO.

Not necessarily. These are post rapture believers who believe either because of the 144,000 witnesses who hold a revival or because of the signs and the rapture. There is much of the unbelieving church who may return to God after the rapture.

Doesn't everyone want to believe if God would only show them proof? Here is their chance.

I didn't see anything that said these were "post rapture believers." The verses simply said "believers" just like all the other believers throughout history who have been persecuted for Christ's namesake.

 

[DriftingSand]

The folks of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced "God's wrath" and yet Lot and family experienced it while on earth. The folks of Noah's day experienced "God's wrath" and yet Noah and family felt the vibrations of God's wrath first hand. Both faithful groups were spared any harm (save Lot's wife) but they were first hand witnesses to the wrath of God. Matthew says that the tribulation to come will be like it was in the time of Noah:

Matthew 24:37, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Christ shall return and bring His wrath with Him.

Matthew 13:38-43, "38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where are the "righteous" during this time of tribulation? Right in the same "field" as "the tares." Who are removed from the world at this time? The tares are plucked up while the wheat remain.

 

[DriftingSand]

If there are any "pre-trib" rapture believers reading this thread can you please explain what your understanding of "the last day" is? Christians won't be caught up with Christ in the clouds until AFTER the dead in Christ rise first and the Bible says that the dead in Christ won't be raised up until "the last day." Please put this in perspective for me, if you will.

 

[Chuckt]

The folks of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced "God's wrath" and yet Lot and family experienced it while on earth. The folks of Noah's day experienced "God's wrath" and yet Noah and family felt the vibrations of God's wrath first hand. Both faithful groups were spared any harm (save Lot's wife) but they were first hand witnesses to the wrath of God. Matthew says that the tribulation to come will be like it was in the time of Noah:

Matthew 24:37, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Christ shall return and bring His wrath with Him.

Matthew 13:38-43, "38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where are the "righteous" during this time of tribulation? Right in the same "field" as "the tares." Who are removed from the world at this time? The tares are plucked up while the wheat remain.

In a pre-tribulation rapture, what would a timeline look like?

Present Age / Rapture / Tribulation / Millenial Age

Where do you place certain events like this one (Revelation 20:3)?

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Where do you put the loosening of Satan? Revelation 20:3 says it is after 1,000 years. I would place it at the end of the millennial reign of Christ while others would put it during the tribulation because maybe they are a-millennialists (no millennium).

So when would the righteous be separated from the wicked? At the end of the tribulation or at the end of the millennium? That effects your timeline for a pre-tribulation rapture timeline. You can have any timeline you want for your beliefs but according to a pre-tribulation rapture timeline, you have to be able to place these events to answer your question.

During the tribulation, there are going to be babies born. Do you separate the righteous from the wicked then or do you wait until the end?

 

[Chuckt]

Then I think it would be best for you to just wait to be lifted away. But beware of these verses:

Revelation 6:9, "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

John 16:2, "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service."

Matthew 24:9, "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Revelation 12:11, "They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."

Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

These verses indicate that Christians will suffer some sort of trial and tribulation IMHO.

Not necessarily. These are post rapture believers who believe either because of the 144,000 witnesses who hold a revival or because of the signs and the rapture. There is much of the unbelieving church who may return to God after the rapture.

Doesn't everyone want to believe if God would only show them proof? Here is their chance.

I didn't see anything that said these were "post rapture believers." The verses simply said "believers" just like all the other believers throughout history who have been persecuted for Christ's namesake.

If you have believers go up in the rapture and if there is a revival down here because people see the signs and believe the 144,000 witnesses then post-rapture believers would only be identified if God intended to reveal everything about the end times. Until God reveals it, they would still be "believers".

 

[DriftingSand]

This preacher speaks briefly on the 4 basic views surrounding "rapture/tribulation." I, obviously, embrace and adhere to the Post-Trib view. My sister is completely entranced by the Pre-Trib view and I've known a couple of Mid-Trib folks and a couple of Preterists. I've studied the issue since the 1980s and agree with the preacher in this video:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3ezGHtGnNI#t=237"]The Rapture - Christology 9 by Rob Cartledge Part 1 of 5 - YouTube[/ame]

http://endtimepilgrim.org/posttribrap.htm

 

[Chuckt]

The folks of Sodom and Gomorrah experienced "God's wrath" and yet Lot and family experienced it while on earth. The folks of Noah's day experienced "God's wrath" and yet Noah and family felt the vibrations of God's wrath first hand. Both faithful groups were spared any harm (save Lot's wife) but they were first hand witnesses to the wrath of God. Matthew says that the tribulation to come will be like it was in the time of Noah:

Matthew 24:37, "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Christ shall return and bring His wrath with Him.

Matthew 13:38-43, "38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where are the "righteous" during this time of tribulation? Right in the same "field" as "the tares." Who are removed from the world at this time? The tares are plucked up while the wheat remain.

I was thinking of exceptions tonight. There are Moses, Joshua and Caleb.

Moses wasn't allowed into the promised land. Only Joshua and Caleb were allowed in.

Numbers 14:30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

Moses did appear in the land on the mount of transfiguration.

The wilderness is about as close that I can get to the tribulation. Joshua and Caleb got to enter into the land but Moses did not. The people weren't allowed to enter in because they murmured and complained and what was an 11 day journey became 40 years in the wilderness. Not everyone had to suffer because there are exceptions.

So when there are questions about everyone dieing in the early church and thrown to the lions we have to ask if there will be exceptions and Joshua and Caleb were exceptions.

 

[Chuckt]

This preacher speaks briefly on the 4 basic views surrounding "rapture/tribulation." I, obviously, embrace and adhere to the Post-Trib view. My sister is completely entranced by the Pre-Trib view and I've known a couple of Mid-Trib folks and a couple of Preterists. I've studied the issue since the 1980s and agree with the preacher in this video:

The Rapture - Christology 9 by Rob Cartledge Part 1 of 5 - YouTube

THE POST-TRIBULATION RAPTURE

I watched it tonight.