Another Islamist in the West Kills His Own Child - You BASTARD!

[Coyote]

If one is going to use 'hence', they really should not use it when presenting a non sequitur. It just makes them look even sillier.

You must be related to the Grammar and Spelling Nazis. In otherwords, they can't address the points so they resort to picking at grammar.

Congratulations.

Pssst. That wasn't a critique of your grammar.

Did I say it was?

Learn to read

 

[Si modo]

Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation.

Apparently it doesn't suit you. Hence - litmus test.

If one is going to use 'hence', they really should not use it when presenting a non sequitur. It just makes them look even sillier.

You must be related to the Grammar and Spelling Nazis. In otherwords, they can't address the points so they resort to picking at grammar.

Congratulations.

Pssst. That wasn't a critique of your grammar.

Did I say it was?

Learn to read

[Emphasis added] Those short term memory issues affect your real life, too, I imagine.

Good to know, though. I can add another to my ever-growing list of the deranged.

 

[Coyote]

Pssst. That wasn't a critique of your grammar.

Did I say it was?

Learn to read

[Emphasis added] Those short term memory issues affect your real life, too, I imagine.

Good to know, though. I can add another to my ever-growing list of the deranged.

Speaking of deranged, are you capable of addressing any of the points or is this all you can come up with?

 

[Si modo]

Did I say it was?

Learn to read

[Emphasis added] Those short term memory issues affect your real life, too, I imagine.

Good to know, though. I can add another to my ever-growing list of the deranged.

Speaking of deranged, are you capable of addressing any of the points or is this all you can come up with?

If you bring up a relevant point to me, I'll be pleased to address it.

 

[Coyote]

[Emphasis added] Those short term memory issues affect your real life, too, I imagine.

Good to know, though. I can add another to my ever-growing list of the deranged.

Speaking of deranged, are you capable of addressing any of the points or is this all you can come up with?

If you bring up a relevant point to me, I'll be pleased to address it.

If you are incapable of doing so, just say so and stop with the silly digressions

Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation.

 

[Si modo]

Speaking of deranged, are you capable of addressing any of the points or is this all you can come up with?

If you bring up a relevant point to me, I'll be pleased to address it.

If you are incapable of doing so, just say so and stop with the silly digressions

Condemnation by providing a quote that is the basis of the philosophy you live by, is still condemnation.

Only if the quote applies to what needs condemnation. That part of Kalem and my conversation obviously flew right over your head. But, Kalem understood, as I knew he would. He is a pretty bright guy.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Only In Islam and crime syndicates are those who commit crimes against humanity the good guys, and those who object and try to stop them the enemy combatants

I accept that you are unable to find an example of Muhammad (SAW) ordering the execution of anyone who did not take up arms against Islam or openly threaten it with destruction. Thank you for your concession; this has been a productive discussion.

It is not a crime to call for the capture or killing of a person who you yourself admit was a thief ,whose actions you blithfully justify .
When the charity of the people of median ran out, what was Mohammeds job?
where did he get his money?

 

[Kalam]

9:5 again maybe this time you will answer

I provided an answer and await your full rebuttal. If what you've already offered in response is the extent of what you plan to post, my argument stands.

Who pays zakat?
Who preforms as salat.

Muslims. Conversion to Islam absolves all former sins, even those committed by the oath-breaking, aggressive Mushrikuun discussed in 9:5.

 

[Kalam]

What is the meaning of the word "tayammum"

Permissible, yes, though modern conveniences have rendered it unnecessary for most people. Still, I doubt anyone could argue that bull piss is an acceptable substitute for dust.

 

[Kalam]

It is not a crime to call for the capture or killing of a person who you yourself admit was a thief ,whose actions you blithfully justify .

I've never referred to Muhammad (SAWS) as a "thief", because subsisting off of the property of one's oppressors does not constitute thievery.

When the charity of the people of median ran out, what was Mohammeds job?
where did he get his money?

From those who forced him and his followers into poverty in the first place, just as he should have.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

What is the meaning of the word "tayammum"

Permissible, yes, though modern conveniences have rendered it unnecessary for most people. Still, I doubt anyone could argue that bull piss is an acceptable substitute for dust.

I am aware of the ritual. I just thought those playing along at home would like to see what it means when you use words like " Only" and "not disputed".

Only clean water may be used; this is not disputed .

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

It is not a crime to call for the capture or killing of a person who you yourself admit was a thief ,whose actions you blithfully justify .

I've never referred to Muhammad (SAWS) as a "thief", because subsisting off of the property of one's oppressors does not constitute thievery.

When the charity of the people of median ran out, what was Mohammeds job?
where did he get his money?

From those who forced him and his followers into poverty in the first place, just as he should have.

There you have it folks, justifying crimes for Islam
They were not oppressors, they were people who did not like being robbed by Mohammad and did not want to be muslims.
Mohammad evolve from lying beggar to murderous thief in medina after proving himself a fraud in Mecca.
His lies forced him into poverty .
He struck back ,at those who tired of his lies after a decade of his harassment and took to raiding the same caravans he used to lead .

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

9:5 again maybe this time you will answer

I provided an answer and await your full rebuttal. If what you've already offered in response is the extent of what you plan to post, my argument stands.

Who pays zakat?
Who preforms as salat.

Muslims. Conversion to Islam absolves all former sins, even those committed by the oath-breaking, aggressive Mushrikuun discussed in 9:5.

So much for no compulsion in religion and defense jihad only.

9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islâmic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikûn (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, then leave their way free. Verily, Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

This is the Ayah of the Sword

Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddi and `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

(So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

(So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which We prohibited you from fighting the idolators, and which is the grace period We gave them, then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191] Allah said here,

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,


(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented: "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

(6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.)

 

[mdn2000]

Ah, how can I possibly respond to such a post so articulate and accurate. Its actually real easy, the Koran (intentional use of spelling of 1800's) is written in Arabic. Being written in Arabic there are thousands of translations, which translation one uses is of the utmost importance,

There are not thousands of translations of the Qur'an into English; there are about fifty. The translations that are most frequently relied upon by academics are similar enough that one can assume they're largely reliable, so you don't really have an argument there.

not all translations or interpetations are the same. So what the hell is Kalem quoting, the Koran or the Hadith, I actually cannot respond quote for quote, passage for passage without knowing which translation or which book.

If you were at all familiar with the Qur'an or hadith collections, my citations would be clear to you. A Qur'anic passage is cited by giving the number of its surah followed by the number or numbers of whatever ayah or ayaat are cited. I cite ahadith by specifying the name of the collection, the name of the book in which the hadith appears, and the number of the hadith.


I'm glad that you're self-confident. That can be a good attribute. Unfortunately, you're incorrect in this case.


Persons, practices, and objects may be regarded as "unclean" without being considered ritually impure. The fact is that none of the four major Sunni madhhabs consider disbelievers ritually impure to the extent that ablution is required after coming into contact with one. While I'm sure that your books on the Middle East are interesting reads, knowledge of Islam requires familiarizing oneself with Islamic scripture, jurisprudential resources, and other religious writings.


Once again, you're incorrect. Disagreement exists over whether the corpses of Muslims are ritually impure.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet came across me in one of the streets of Medina and at that time I was Junub. So I slipped away from him and went to take a bath. On my return the Prophet said, "O Abu Huraira! Where have you been?" I replied, "I was Junub, so I disliked to sit in your company." The Prophet said, "Subhan Allah! A believer never becomes impure." - Sahih Bukhari, Ghusl, no. 281​

You're presupposing that this had anything to do with the crime. The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim. The victims were probably hit with a car because that was the most convenient way for the would-be murderer to attack them. Moreover, you're incorrect once again about the rules regarding najasa. Rules vary slightly between the Sunni Madhhabs and more significantly between the Ahl as-Sunnah and the Shi'a.


Full ablution (ghusl) is generally required after the following for Sunnis:

• Sexual intercourse or any kind of sexual discharge (Sahih Muslim, Haid, no. 616 and others)
• Reaching puberty - full ablution is required every Friday (Sahih Bukhari, Characteristics of Prayer, no. 817)
• Dying (Sahih Bukhari, Janaaiz)

It's also recommended before formally converting, before performing hajj, and before Eid prayers. Partial ablution (wudu) is required before handling the Qur'an or praying.


Not in any major Sunni school of thought. Only the body itself needs to undergo ghusl.


Uh... that's not correct. Ghusl and wudu must be performed using clean water according to all sources.


You sources are, for the most part, the travel accounts of Western orientalists. If you're looking for accurate information about Islam, read the scripture itself or consult a knowledgeable 'alim.


You're right; I know nothing about the purification I undergo every day.

its Bull Urine, unfortunately one or two books is not sufficient, its possible Camel Urine can be used for purification. Some sects even use Urine to baptize babies. Either way purification is real, there is holy and unholy.

Using "bull urine" in ablutions is un-Islamic. Only clean water may be used; this is not disputed.

No prayer of purification, Kalem knows a tiny amount if anything about Islam and the culture.

Claiming that you know more about Islam than Muslims while posting the ridiculous nonsense you peddle does not tend to work wonders for your credibility. You do not know more about Islam than I do. Just a word of friendly advice.

Kalem, what do you know, you know enough to completely ignore what this topic is about and for good reason, again you speak of "disbeleivers" when this topic is about APOSTASY.

Two books, yep, just two, of course I possess over a hundred books on the Middle East.

Kalem, if you know so much and am so smart why did you state the two book I listed were from "western orientalist", one was written by the Russian consulate to Persia, last time I checked Russia is not the "west".

Books, very few written by Arabs, very, very, few.

To dismiss Doughty shows pure igorance, but that seems to be what your about. Dismissing all information coming from the west as biased againt the poor Moslems.

Yes, you know nothing of purification, hence you refer to the lesser purification and not the "Great" purification in which I specifically was speaking of.

The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim.

Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel, funny that the two most common methods does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.

So in closing, and you can have the last work on this Kalem, so in closing.

Kalem refused to address Apostasy,
Kalem dismissed two books which Kalem knows nothing of, one book Kalem labeled as western when it was Russian.
Kalem kept refering to a disbeleiver, obfuscating the facts of this murder and Apostasy.
Kalem ignored the Hadith, specifically concentrating on the Qur'an, the Qur'an does not specify the punishment for Apostasy so this is literally Kalem's strawman arguement.
Kalem states

Yes, look to the Qur'an, show us were in the Qur'an (morons think others do not know that the Hadith's are followed as zealously as the Koran), I say how about the Hadith, silence followed.

Apostasy, the act of turning away from ones religion.
Punishment according to culture, tradion, and the word of the prophet, DEATH

So speak of disbelievers, the woman would not be treated as a disbeliever, she was treated as someone guilty of Apostasy.

Do I know more of Islam than Kalem, I think so, Kalem is not familiar with the most relevant book written in the west, if all you read is the Qur'an and the Hadith, dismissing the unbiased western scholarly works than its Kalem that has limited Kalem's knowledge. This was demonstrated by Kalem's ignorance of the use of Urine, this was demonstrated by Kalem's inability to address Apostasy. This was demonstrated by Kalem defining the conditions and terms of study one must take to credible.

Kalem states "knowledge of Islam requires familiarizing oneself with Islamic scripture, jurisprudential resources, and other religious writings." Knowledge of Islam can be attained in many ways, a strawman arguement to define the terms of one who is credible.

Knowledge of Islam is better understood by studying the history of Islam, only by the study of history, only by the study of the culture and practise of the people of Islam can one see how people practise their beliefs. Only through the study of history can one relate current events of today such as this man who killed his daughter, with the tradions and practises of the culture.

Kalem you have done yourself and Allah a disservice by limiting your knowledge to such a narrow area of study.
Me, I will continue the higher course of study, the collecting and reading of the thousands of book written by nonbiased credible persons who have first have experience not as mere travelers but as persons living in the midst of the culture of Islam.

So take the last work Kalem, qoute the Qur'an which any true scholar knows is not the last nor most complete word on Apostasy.

 

[Coyote]

Why do you say this topic is about Apostasy? There is nothing in the article that started the thread about that. Nothing. It is all your own extrapolation.

 

[Coyote]

The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim.

Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel, funny that the two most common methods does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.

Actually, when you do a search on honor killings a lot of them seem to involve stabbing or cutting throats.

As for Russia, it is BOTH east and west - that is one of it's great cultural distinctions - it's where east meets west.

 

[mdn2000]

The vast majority of "honor killings" are carried out in ways that involve physical contact between the murderer and the victim.

Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel, funny that the two most common methods does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.

Actually, when you do a search on honor killings a lot of them seem to involve stabbing or cutting throats.

As for Russia, it is BOTH east and west - that is one of it's great cultural distinctions - it's where east meets west.

Why do you cherry pick the posts you respond to, why can you not support your claim about Bill Ayers in the Anita Dunn thread.

Claiming this discussion has nothing to do with Apostasy is ignorant.

Russia is where the east meets the west? Japan is in the east? When one spoke of the western world they spoke of Russia?

I am pretty much done with this topic, if anyone cares I listed two great sources on the culture of Islam, one free and easy to download at google books. The last couple of posts of Kalem's contained no information relevant to this topic and Coyote's last post did not aid Kalem's assertions.

The best source of information on Islam is the western world.

 

[Coyote]

Knowledge of Islam is better understood by studying the history of Islam, only by the study of history, only by the study of the culture and practise of the people of Islam can one see how people practise their beliefs. Only through the study of history can one relate current events of today such as this man who killed his daughter, with the tradions and practises of the culture.
.

To some extent, I agree with you but Islam is at a crossroads of reformation right now and it needs to come to terms with modern values while retaining core religious values. This is doable because, like the bible - there is plenty of material in the Quran to support more peaceful interpretations of the religion.

I think what you are saying is that cultures create religion and you can't totally separate them. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all sprang from the same violent cultures and all, in their fundamentalist aspects treat women badly. Christianity has had it's reformation and has been largely diluted by the more secular ideals that came out of the "Enlightenment" and the seperation of church from government. Many of the countries that are predominantly Muslim don't have that separation, and are still very much in a medievil mindset clashing with change that - unlike Christianity, where it took place very slowly - is happening at an incredible speed. People are moving around, immigrating, absorbing western ideals through the rapid dissimination of electronic media without the time to adjust as a culture.

But religions and cultures aren't static - religion can also continue to be influenced by culture. This is evident when you look at the majority of muslim immigrants in the U.S. and Canada who have adopted western culture and have been here for several generations.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

Reformation of Islam is not a rational expectation nor something you would want,
a return to fundamental Islam is what you are hearing about in the news.
Expect more caving into Islamic demands and more lies about the nature of Islam from politicians and the media, nothing more.

 

[Coyote]

Here Kalem is obviously refering to "stoning to death" or chopping of the head off of infidel, funny that the two most common methods does not involve an act that touches the unclean corpse.

Actually, when you do a search on honor killings a lot of them seem to involve stabbing or cutting throats.

As for Russia, it is BOTH east and west - that is one of it's great cultural distinctions - it's where east meets west.

Why do you cherry pick the posts you respond to, why can you not support your claim about Bill Ayers in the Anita Dunn thread.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to read through every single post on these boards or search through a ton of responses. If you do, well more power to you. Provide a link to the post you think I'm ignoring and I'll be happy to oblige.

Claiming this discussion has nothing to do with Apostasy is ignorant.

No. It's sticking to the facts of the article that began this thread. Anything else is your opinion.

Russia is where the east meets the west? Japan is in the east? When one spoke of the western world they spoke of Russia?

If we are talking about cultural influences, then yes: Russian culture has been shaped by its unique position on the margins of both the East and West. It's both.

I am pretty much done with this topic, if anyone cares I listed two great sources on the culture of Islam, one free and easy to download at google books. The last couple of posts of Kalem's contained no information relevant to this topic and Coyote's last post did not aid Kalem's assertions.

The best source of information on Islam is the western world.

I doubt it, because much of what the "western world" writes is from the outside looking in - it interprets Islam through it's own cultural prism. That doesn't mean it's totally inaccurate but neither does it present the complete picture. I think the best source would be a combination of sources - "west" and "east" and despite your assertions there is plenty of material written by Islamic authors - it just may not be widely translated.