Arctic ice thins dramatically

[Trakar]

...just out of curiousity, what sort of figures did that study have for 1922?...

Looking at the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, the ice coverage at minima in 1922 was about 10 and a half million kilometers, about twice what the coverage was last summer.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/SEAICE/timeseries.1870-2008

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg


You can see them for yourself.

the problem with your graphs and data tables is that they dont match up with eyewitness accounts. how were they measuring the ice fields in the pre-aeroplane era?

Don't you mean that the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, doesn't agree with something you've read from somewhere else that purportedly represented eyewitness accounts to an "ice-free" arctic? Regardless, reference your eyewitness accounts and perhaps we can figure out the wheres and why-fors behind the discrepancy.

As discussed at the Arctic Climate site, the early data for these datasets come from ship logs (naval, merchant and research vessels) and outpost weather stations compiled and stored primarily by the Danish Meteorlogical Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, and the US Naval Oceanographic Office. These records and the data they represent are documented and authenticated eyewitness accounts of the conditions witnessed and recorded in ships' logs and weather station reports.

 

[westwall]

Looking at the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, the ice coverage at minima in 1922 was about 10 and a half million kilometers, about twice what the coverage was last summer.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/SEAICE/timeseries.1870-2008

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg


You can see them for yourself.

the problem with your graphs and data tables is that they dont match up with eyewitness accounts. how were they measuring the ice fields in the pre-aeroplane era?

Don't you mean that the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, doesn't agree with something you've read from somewhere else that purportedly represented eyewitness accounts to an "ice-free" arctic? Regardless, reference your eyewitness accounts and perhaps we can figure out the wheres and why-fors behind the discrepancy.

As discussed at the Arctic Climate site, the early data for these datasets come from ship logs (naval, merchant and research vessels) and outpost weather stations compiled and stored primarily by the Danish Meteorlogical Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, and the US Naval Oceanographic Office. These records and the data they represent are documented and authenticated eyewitness accounts of the conditions witnessed and recorded in ships' logs and weather station reports.

No, what we're saying is that alarmism is based almost exclusivly on computer models that are incapable of recreating the weather we KNOW occured 5 days ago. On the other hand the sources Ian provided actually were there, on the ground and in many instances took photographs. So which should we believe? Horribly bad computer models or the accounts of those who were actually there?

I know which source thinking people will choose.

 

[Old Rocks]

Now Walleyes, I do believe that we are discussing Artic Ice, not computer models or yesterdays weather.

 

[westwall]

Now Walleyes, I do believe that we are discussing Artic Ice, not computer models or yesterdays weather.

Yes we are and the people who were actually there say things were different than what UIUC says was happening. As Ian asked "how did they get their data without airplanes?"

 

[Old Rocks]

Now Walleyes, I do believe that we are discussing Artic Ice, not computer models or yesterdays weather.

Yes we are and the people who were actually there say things were different than what UIUC says was happening. As Ian asked "how did they get their data without airplanes?"

You mean these people?

Trakar;

Don't you mean that the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, doesn't agree with something you've read from somewhere else that purportedly represented eyewitness accounts to an "ice-free" arctic? Regardless, reference your eyewitness accounts and perhaps we can figure out the wheres and why-fors behind the discrepancy.

As discussed at the Arctic Climate site, the early data for these datasets come from ship logs (naval, merchant and research vessels) and outpost weather stations compiled and stored primarily by the Danish Meteorlogical Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, and the US Naval Oceanographic Office. These records and the data they represent are documented and authenticated eyewitness accounts of the conditions witnessed and recorded in ships' logs and weather station reports.

 

[westwall]

Now Walleyes, I do believe that we are discussing Artic Ice, not computer models or yesterdays weather.

Yes we are and the people who were actually there say things were different than what UIUC says was happening. As Ian asked "how did they get their data without airplanes?"

You mean these people?

Trakar;

Don't you mean that the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, doesn't agree with something you've read from somewhere else that purportedly represented eyewitness accounts to an "ice-free" arctic? Regardless, reference your eyewitness accounts and perhaps we can figure out the wheres and why-fors behind the discrepancy.

As discussed at the Arctic Climate site, the early data for these datasets come from ship logs (naval, merchant and research vessels) and outpost weather stations compiled and stored primarily by the Danish Meteorlogical Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, and the US Naval Oceanographic Office. These records and the data they represent are documented and authenticated eyewitness accounts of the conditions witnessed and recorded in ships' logs and weather station reports.

Interesting how when you are posting trakar isn't and when trakar is posting you aren't. Hmmm????

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

...just out of curiousity, what sort of figures did that study have for 1922?...

Looking at the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, the ice coverage at minima in 1922 was about 10 and a half million kilometers, about twice what the coverage was last summer.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/SEAICE/timeseries.1870-2008

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg


You can see them for yourself.

 

[Old Rocks]

Hmmm...... yourself, silly ass. You will soon find out the differance, much to your chagrin.

 

[IanC]

Well Ian, the ice for the present is certainly below what it has been in recorded history.

Arctic Sea Ice at Lowest Point in Thousands of Years | Our Amazing Planet

this link is a good example of the AGW alarmist spin. they declare significant warming of the oceans over the last two decades! and why that is badddddd. then they totally gloss over the inconvenient findings that sea temps have been flat for most of the 2000's and are probably decreasing. there is even a picture of the old small sensor and the new colourful hi-tech sensor. they certainly didnt point out that the warming was found in the much adjusted old readings and that new sensors have found no warming even though there has been no lack of trying to get the researchers to 'adjust' those readings as well.

the famous Trenberth climategate email (...and its a travesty...) was about this lack of ocean warming because it means that the energy that was supposed to warm the atmosphere can't be said to be hiding in the oceans.

 

[IanC]

Looking at the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, the ice coverage at minima in 1922 was about 10 and a half million kilometers, about twice what the coverage was last summer.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/SEAICE/timeseries.1870-2008

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seasonal.extent.1900-2007.jpg


You can see them for yourself.

the problem with your graphs and data tables is that they dont match up with eyewitness accounts. how were they measuring the ice fields in the pre-aeroplane era?

Don't you mean that the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, doesn't agree with something you've read from somewhere else that purportedly represented eyewitness accounts to an "ice-free" arctic? Regardless, reference your eyewitness accounts and perhaps we can figure out the wheres and why-fors behind the discrepancy.

As discussed at the Arctic Climate site, the early data for these datasets come from ship logs (naval, merchant and research vessels) and outpost weather stations compiled and stored primarily by the Danish Meteorlogical Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, and the US Naval Oceanographic Office. These records and the data they represent are documented and authenticated eyewitness accounts of the conditions witnessed and recorded in ships' logs and weather station reports.

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf

why arent these first hand accounts of arctic conditions reflected in your version? it is very confusing, not unlike how climate science and the IPCC tried to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear despite historical records of warm weather. the pdf quotes a long time mariner (over 50 years) describing how the warming from 1918-1922 made the region unrecognizable.

 

[westwall]

the problem with your graphs and data tables is that they dont match up with eyewitness accounts. how were they measuring the ice fields in the pre-aeroplane era?

Don't you mean that the data from the Arctic Climate Research Department at the University of Illinois, doesn't agree with something you've read from somewhere else that purportedly represented eyewitness accounts to an "ice-free" arctic? Regardless, reference your eyewitness accounts and perhaps we can figure out the wheres and why-fors behind the discrepancy.

As discussed at the Arctic Climate site, the early data for these datasets come from ship logs (naval, merchant and research vessels) and outpost weather stations compiled and stored primarily by the Danish Meteorlogical Institute, Japan Meteorological Agency, and the US Naval Oceanographic Office. These records and the data they represent are documented and authenticated eyewitness accounts of the conditions witnessed and recorded in ships' logs and weather station reports.

http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/050/mwr-050-11-0589a.pdf

why arent these first hand accounts of arctic conditions reflected in your version? it is very confusing, not unlike how climate science and the IPCC tried to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear despite historical records of warm weather. the pdf quotes a long time mariner (over 50 years) describing how the warming from 1918-1922 made the region unrecognizable.

I believe the term is "cherry picking".

 

[Old Rocks]

How many ships traveled the NorthEast Passage in 1922? How many sailboats did both the Northwest and Northeast Passage in 1922?

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis

Beginning to look like a very interesting year this year.

 

[westwall]

How many ships traveled the NorthEast Passage in 1922? How many sailboats did both the Northwest and Northeast Passage in 1922?

Arctic Sea Ice News & Analysis

Beginning to look like a very interesting year this year.

What was that trakar? What makes you think it is going to be such an interesting year? I see the ice thickening ever more and that leads me to conclude that over the nex few years Arctic ice is going to increase quite a bit. What's your prediction?

 

[Old Rocks]

Another very low year, maybe lower than 2007. And the ice volume will significantly decrease.

From the University of Washington;

http://psc.apl.washington.edu/ArcticSeaiceVolume/images/BPIOMASIceVolumeAnomalyCurrent.png

 

[Trakar]

...why arent these first hand accounts of arctic conditions reflected in your version? it is very confusing, not unlike how climate science and the IPCC tried to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear despite historical records of warm weather. the pdf quotes a long time mariner (over 50 years) describing how the warming from 1918-1922 made the region unrecognizable.

I should have realized that the study of Geography would also prove important in rounding out your education (please tell me that you aren't American, I mean I know our public school education standards are abyssmal but this is just sad).

81ºN is is pretty far north, but it is still several hundred miles from the North pole and the Summer ice tends not be centered on the pole especially up from the N. Atlantic. As the data listed above indicates, the arctic ice in the summer was almost as low as it was in 2007/2008, but there is nothing in the eyewitness accounts that you've linked that indicates that the Arctic sea was ice-free.

The MWP is an acknowledged, mild, regional (mostly european but with some more general northern hemisphere involvement) climate episode, I'm not aware of any effort to "make the Medieval Warm Period disappear," but if you care to present evidence to support your assertions, I'd be happy to examine it.

As for the captain's perceptions, the mild regional cooling of the northern hemisphere popularly known as the Little Ice Age (LIA) believed to be predominantly the result of an episodic increase in high latitude volcanic activity, is generally acknowledged to have ended in the mid-late 1800s. Temperatures rebounded as the sulfur particulates were slowly filtered out of the atmosphere.

 

[Trakar]

I believe the term is "cherry picking".

As usual, your beliefs are incorrect and irrelevent.

 

[IanC]

...why arent these first hand accounts of arctic conditions reflected in your version? it is very confusing, not unlike how climate science and the IPCC tried to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear despite historical records of warm weather. the pdf quotes a long time mariner (over 50 years) describing how the warming from 1918-1922 made the region unrecognizable.

I should have realized that the study of Geography would also prove important in rounding out your education (please tell me that you aren't American, I mean I know our public school education standards are abyssmal but this is just sad).

81ºN is is pretty far north, but it is still several hundred miles from the North pole and the Summer ice tends not be centered on the pole especially up from the N. Atlantic. As the data listed above indicates, the arctic ice in the summer was almost as low as it was in 2007/2008, but there is nothing in the eyewitness accounts that you've linked that indicates that the Arctic sea was ice-free.

The MWP is an acknowledged, mild, regional (mostly european but with some more general northern hemisphere involvement) climate episode, I'm not aware of any effort to "make the Medieval Warm Period disappear," but if you care to present evidence to support your assertions, I'd be happy to examine it.

As for the captain's perceptions, the mild regional cooling of the northern hemisphere popularly known as the Little Ice Age (LIA) believed to be predominantly the result of an episodic increase in high latitude volcanic activity, is generally acknowledged to have ended in the mid-late 1800s. Temperatures rebounded as the sulfur particulates were slowly filtered out of the atmosphere.

from your link-

1910 13.52820 15.39442 15.41934 11.16402 12.14704
1911 13.61825 15.69520 15.33318 11.30033 12.15617
1912 13.60468 15.50671 15.34149 11.33000 12.25226
1913 13.62153 15.44919 15.05566 11.74843 12.24514
1914 13.46719 15.55853 15.13878 11.09318 12.09031
1915 13.38904 15.39564 14.96431 11.01717 12.19111
1916 13.61162 15.44389 15.13243 11.59043 12.29208
1917 13.82430 15.68101 15.66953 11.63274 12.32657
1918 13.73051 15.68612 15.45915 11.59050 12.19877
1919 13.48890 15.49036 15.31640 11.01612 12.14484
1920 13.36731 15.42230 14.71118 11.16307 12.18487
1921 13.42236 15.46390 15.37459 10.68632 12.17657
1922 13.33561 15.48477 15.10286 10.61479 12.15213
1923 13.19665 15.15129 14.88951 10.55370 12.20389
1924 13.36836 15.49667 15.12655 10.67784 12.18454
1925 13.11577 15.40579 14.61223 10.33434 12.12278
1926 13.43018 15.45785 14.97849 11.04813 12.24827
1927 13.48960 15.60695 15.20956 10.89265 12.26099
1928 13.47022 15.53739 15.03771 10.93193 12.38604
1929 13.48583 15.54741 15.25922 10.99313 12.15567
1930 13.19894 15.50900 14.72692 10.44520 12.12674

....

1988 12.55684 15.13654 13.93870 9.19005 11.97357
1989 12.44663 15.23958 13.54229 9.15674 11.85911
1990 12.11015 15.26338 13.51850 8.07264 11.59689
1991 12.20011 14.84334 13.87693 8.65789 11.43393
1992 12.44991 14.91764 13.67476 9.23874 11.98045
1993 12.25997 15.06794 13.78006 8.38387 11.81933
1994 12.37032 15.08149 13.84400 8.81259 11.75462
1995 11.88742 14.93296 13.35731 7.73501 11.53480
1996 12.07481 14.52469 13.28614 9.26375 11.23536
1997 12.06711 14.94603 13.58513 8.29756 11.45068
1998 12.40697 15.78411 13.96029 8.62229 11.27226
1999 12.39809 15.47643 14.14554 8.50241 11.47914
2000 12.14383 15.21040 13.71933 8.42643 11.22967
2001 12.34065 15.56816 13.86992 8.60746 11.32803
2002 12.13423 15.63629 13.63608 8.09367 11.18163
2003 12.14218 15.53214 13.75027 8.25143 11.04565
2004 11.90407 15.21956 13.24363 8.11353 11.04978
2005 11.64843 14.82359 13.36471 7.72954 10.68591
2006 11.48640 14.35250 13.14995 7.77557 10.67801
2007 10.32810 14.23611 12.56108 5.56487 8.96007
2008 0.00000 14.50902 12.60711 6.20727 0.00000

where is the dip around 1922. and how do you figure 2007/2008 is similar to 1922? and who said that the arctic was ice free in 1922? your comprehension seems a little shaky.

your description of the MWP seems a tad absurd when you consider the Vikings in Greenland. but dont let me stop you from drinking the kool-aid

 

[Trakar]

...why arent these first hand accounts of arctic conditions reflected in your version? it is very confusing, not unlike how climate science and the IPCC tried to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear despite historical records of warm weather. the pdf quotes a long time mariner (over 50 years) describing how the warming from 1918-1922 made the region unrecognizable.

I should have realized that the study of Geography would also prove important in rounding out your education (please tell me that you aren't American, I mean I know our public school education standards are abyssmal but this is just sad).

81ºN is is pretty far north, but it is still several hundred miles from the North pole and the Summer ice tends not be centered on the pole especially up from the N. Atlantic. As the data listed above indicates, the arctic ice in the summer was almost as low as it was in 2007/2008, but there is nothing in the eyewitness accounts that you've linked that indicates that the Arctic sea was ice-free.

The MWP is an acknowledged, mild, regional (mostly european but with some more general northern hemisphere involvement) climate episode, I'm not aware of any effort to "make the Medieval Warm Period disappear," but if you care to present evidence to support your assertions, I'd be happy to examine it.

As for the captain's perceptions, the mild regional cooling of the northern hemisphere popularly known as the Little Ice Age (LIA) believed to be predominantly the result of an episodic increase in high latitude volcanic activity, is generally acknowledged to have ended in the mid-late 1800s. Temperatures rebounded as the sulfur particulates were slowly filtered out of the atmosphere.

from your link-

1910 13.52820 15.39442 15.41934 11.16402 12.14704
1911 13.61825 15.69520 15.33318 11.30033 12.15617
1912 13.60468 15.50671 15.34149 11.33000 12.25226
1913 13.62153 15.44919 15.05566 11.74843 12.24514
1914 13.46719 15.55853 15.13878 11.09318 12.09031
1915 13.38904 15.39564 14.96431 11.01717 12.19111
1916 13.61162 15.44389 15.13243 11.59043 12.29208
1917 13.82430 15.68101 15.66953 11.63274 12.32657
1918 13.73051 15.68612 15.45915 11.59050 12.19877
1919 13.48890 15.49036 15.31640 11.01612 12.14484
1920 13.36731 15.42230 14.71118 11.16307 12.18487
1921 13.42236 15.46390 15.37459 10.68632 12.17657
1922 13.33561 15.48477 15.10286 10.61479 12.15213
1923 13.19665 15.15129 14.88951 10.55370 12.20389
1924 13.36836 15.49667 15.12655 10.67784 12.18454
1925 13.11577 15.40579 14.61223 10.33434 12.12278
1926 13.43018 15.45785 14.97849 11.04813 12.24827
1927 13.48960 15.60695 15.20956 10.89265 12.26099
1928 13.47022 15.53739 15.03771 10.93193 12.38604
1929 13.48583 15.54741 15.25922 10.99313 12.15567
1930 13.19894 15.50900 14.72692 10.44520 12.12674

....

1988 12.55684 15.13654 13.93870 9.19005 11.97357
1989 12.44663 15.23958 13.54229 9.15674 11.85911
1990 12.11015 15.26338 13.51850 8.07264 11.59689
1991 12.20011 14.84334 13.87693 8.65789 11.43393
1992 12.44991 14.91764 13.67476 9.23874 11.98045
1993 12.25997 15.06794 13.78006 8.38387 11.81933
1994 12.37032 15.08149 13.84400 8.81259 11.75462
1995 11.88742 14.93296 13.35731 7.73501 11.53480
1996 12.07481 14.52469 13.28614 9.26375 11.23536
1997 12.06711 14.94603 13.58513 8.29756 11.45068
1998 12.40697 15.78411 13.96029 8.62229 11.27226
1999 12.39809 15.47643 14.14554 8.50241 11.47914
2000 12.14383 15.21040 13.71933 8.42643 11.22967
2001 12.34065 15.56816 13.86992 8.60746 11.32803
2002 12.13423 15.63629 13.63608 8.09367 11.18163
2003 12.14218 15.53214 13.75027 8.25143 11.04565
2004 11.90407 15.21956 13.24363 8.11353 11.04978
2005 11.64843 14.82359 13.36471 7.72954 10.68591
2006 11.48640 14.35250 13.14995 7.77557 10.67801
2007 10.32810 14.23611 12.56108 5.56487 8.96007
2008 0.00000 14.50902 12.60711 6.20727 0.00000

where is the dip around 1922. and how do you figure 2007/2008 is similar to 1922? and who said that the arctic was ice free in 1922? your comprehension seems a little shaky.

I colored the summer minimums for you, if you don't understand the numbers (or any evidence/reference provided, please do not hesitate to ask. You are quite right about the comparison to 2007/2008, I misspoke and should have stuck with my earlier statement ("the ice coverage at minima in 1922 was about 10 and a half million kilometers, about twice what the coverage was last summer" and in 2007). I apologize for the misstatement. 1922 was low for its time, but nowhere near the current summer lows. Mea Culpa

your description of the MWP seems a tad absurd when you consider the Vikings in Greenland.

How so? Throughout the last 3 centuries Greenland has had towns, farms and year-round resident populations. Many of the southern coastal valleys are forested and quite verdant.

Greenland beauty | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Ancient Tides: Greenland's Vikings Mostly Celtic, Not Norse

Getting Around Southern Greenland: On Land - Greenland Travel Guide - iGuide

Explore Greenland - Denmark - VisitDenmark: Official guide to Denmark from VisitDenmark with hotel links, map, visa, pictures, flag, Copenhagen info etc.

 

[IanC]

Dude! I am starting to really believe that you are Old Rocks, hahahaha

again, from your link-

1922 13.33561 15.48477 15.10286 10.61479 12.15213
2007 10.32810 14.23611 12.56108 5.56487 8.96007
2008 0.00000 14.50902 12.60711 6.20727 0.00000

are you the one who can't read data set? another interesting thing I noticed is that the ice levels in the past don't seem to follow the global temp pattern given by GISS, and that the standard deviation is much smaller for the far past than post 1960 or 1970.

 

[westwall]

...why arent these first hand accounts of arctic conditions reflected in your version? it is very confusing, not unlike how climate science and the IPCC tried to make the Medieval Warm Period disappear despite historical records of warm weather. the pdf quotes a long time mariner (over 50 years) describing how the warming from 1918-1922 made the region unrecognizable.

I should have realized that the study of Geography would also prove important in rounding out your education (please tell me that you aren't American, I mean I know our public school education standards are abyssmal but this is just sad).

81ºN is is pretty far north, but it is still several hundred miles from the North pole and the Summer ice tends not be centered on the pole especially up from the N. Atlantic. As the data listed above indicates, the arctic ice in the summer was almost as low as it was in 2007/2008, but there is nothing in the eyewitness accounts that you've linked that indicates that the Arctic sea was ice-free.

The MWP is an acknowledged, mild, regional (mostly european but with some more general northern hemisphere involvement) climate episode, I'm not aware of any effort to "make the Medieval Warm Period disappear," but if you care to present evidence to support your assertions, I'd be happy to examine it.

As for the captain's perceptions, the mild regional cooling of the northern hemisphere popularly known as the Little Ice Age (LIA) believed to be predominantly the result of an episodic increase in high latitude volcanic activity, is generally acknowledged to have ended in the mid-late 1800s. Temperatures rebounded as the sulfur particulates were slowly filtered out of the atmosphere.

The average temperature of the MWP was 5 degrees warmer then today. It has been found wherever it has been looked for in the world. Both southern and northern hemispheres. Here in the Siearra Nevada the average temperature was 2.6 degrees warmer then the current day. You clearly need to get more current on the state of research as regards the MWP as it stands today.
Furthermore, exactly what mechanism could trap a huge temperature rise that lasted for hundreds of years in one local? And really, you're so ignorant of Mann et all and their infamous hockey stick that eliminated both the MWP and the LIA that you would make such a boneheaded statement? Really. You owe IanC a apology, you are about as informed as a freshman.
The MWP was global, not localised but nice try olfraud.