Ask a cop a question...

[Quantum Windbag]

I ask cops questions all the time... course thats in the court room. I dont think the judge would appreciate them tazing me.

I bet some of them want to.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't think anyone claimed that was illegal. It was just the 3 minutes of ignoring the cop's lawful commands after he got out of the car.

That's my point.

If it is not illegal to get out of a car during a traffic stop it is not lawful to order someone to get back into one.

I think it's lawful for a police officer to order someone back into a car.

Can you legally support your assertion?

I'll agree that you can get out, but the second a cop tells you to get back in, it's a lawful order.

Why wouldn't it be?

Because lawful orders can only be issued in a situation where what you are doing is endangering the public, interfering with a police investigation, or breaking a law. That means that, unless it is illegal to get out of a car, it is not lawful to order someone to get back into the car. He can be told to get out of the street, but not to get in the car.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

This kid had his day in court.

He was charged with resisting arrest and cited for his license plate.

All I can figure is the jury either wasn't permitted to see the video or they were blind, The idiot was acquitted on the resisting charge.

In order to resist arrest someone has to be under arrest. He never resisted because no one even tried to arrest him until after they tased him.

What? You have to place someone under arrest before you can taze them? That makes no sense.

I did not say that. I said you cannot be resisting arrest unless someone is trying to arrest you. Did you see any evidence of them trying to arrest this guy before they tazed him? Did you hear any of them saying anything about him being under arrest?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

and you base that on??

Police cannot order you to let them into your house.

A house and a car don't have the same degree of protection. The concept being that cars are driven on public streets.



Correct. Not relevant.

Police cannot order you to let them search your car.

They can search your car in a limited fashion even without your consent. If they have probable cause, they'll obtain a warrant anyways and the standard is lower than for your house. A car is not a man's "castle".

What makes you think police have broad powers to give orders?

Because they are conferred with special trust and duties when they put on the badge. You seem to want to relegate police officers to "hall monitor" status.

I was asked how I figure that police do not have unlimited power to issue orders, I answered. They might have special trust and duties, but they cannot issue orders unless they have a legitimate reason. Even then, they have to explain why they are issuing said orders and justify the situation and orders.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'll agree that you can get out, but the second a cop tells you to get back in, it's a lawful order.

So if he doesn't like the way you are walking down the street, or your clothes are too loud, or your mohawk haircut is an afront to civilisation, or he likes loud music, but just not your loud music? Where is the line drawn.

I have deliberately given examples that could set him off as opposed to ridiculous answers such as him not liking the colour of your car, or the fact you eat M&Ms....

This scenario is different because the officer stopped the person for a traffic offense (albeit a stupid offense, but an offense non the less).

A police officer can not simply hassle someone on the street. However, when you are behind the wheel, it is understood that you are on public streets as a privilege and not a right. The police can stop you.

I guess that depends on where you live.

NYPD stop-and-frisk policy feels heat from City Council members

Which is why I prefer to make an issue of things before it gets to the point where the police think they can do whatever they want.

 

[MikeK]

While the idiot was on the ground you can hear the police yelling at him repeatedly "Stop Resisting".

If you watch a few episodes of COPS you will find that loudly yelling "Stop resisting" accompanies every instance of forceful restraint, regardless of whether or not the subject is in fact resisting or how unnecessary the force is. It is done for the benefit of the the police car camera/recorder and/or recordings made by bystanders. They do this in case they need to justify the use of force during a trial.

The same goes for yelling "Get on the ground! as several cops are slamming a subject face down onto the pavement -- as if the subject has a choice. It makes what amounts to an assaultive attack appear to be compliance with a command. (That is unless you don't consider being slammed face down onto pavement by several men to be an assaultive attack.)

 

[MikeK]

You see I see it differently. I don't see him as being hostile at all. He eventually gets agitated, but the first thing he asks - in what I consider a reasonable tone - is "why was I stopped?". No cussing, no walking around macho, no attempt to run, no flipping the bird - nothing.

I didn't see the driver even being unruly until a few good minutes into the video, and the cop just constantly yelling at him.

I see Harper's behaviour as totally normal - in the beginning. he was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form IMO...

Stanford University Sociology Professor Philip Zimbardo has completed a study of the authoritarian nature of contemporary American culture in which he identifies two essential personality types within the population. Type-A being the Authoritarian/Submissive, which, as the designation implies, tends to be innately submissive to and generally favorable toward authority in all forms. His explanations, which are well detailed and annotated, include the opinion that this orientation derives mainly from the influence of parents as initial authority figures and is augmented later in life by social and governmental, and in some cases, religious influences.

Briefly stated, the Type-B personality harbors a more objective disposition toward authority, tending to question its purpose in all matters and accepting it only when expediently necessary.

Based on your remarks above it is clear you are not a Type-A.

Compliments.

 

[MikeK]

For the bulk of that video, the driver wasn't under arrest. He was too hostile to the police officer to even let the situation be sorted out. I'll agree that the cop probably made a mistake with telling him to get on his knees. In the cop's defense, that was after the driver had acted erratically for about a minute and a half and berated him. Other than that minor point, I don't think the officer did anything wrong. He was trying to control an unruly driver and ensure his safety and Harper's safety.

I really have to question anyone who claims that Harper's behavior was "normative". I am suspicious of why he acted the way he did. It didn't justify tasing him repeatedly on the ground, but I don't really see how they erred in trying to resoleve the situation.

I fully agree with you on the irony of the "gun culture".

You see I see it differently. I don't see him as being hostile at all. He eventually gets agitated, but the first thing he asks - in what I consider a reasonable tone - is "why was I stopped?". No cussing, no walking around macho, no attempt to run, no flipping the bird - nothing.

I didn't see the driver even being unruly until a few good minutes into the video, and the cop just constantly yelling at him.

I see Harper's behaviour as totally normal - in the beginning. he was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form IMO...

In this country if you get stopped by a police car you stay in the car. You don't go outside, walking toward the police officer, demanding to know the reason for the stop.

If he tells you to get in the car, you get in. And if he tells you to get out of the car, you get out. And if he tells you to stand over here, you do it. And if he tells you to stand over there, you do it. And if he tells you to turn around, you do it. And if he tells you to put your hands on your head, you do it. And if he tells you to get on your knees, you do it. And so on.

There is a game that some people play called Bondage and Domination. One of the participants in this forum, Cecilie, can tell you all about it because she is a dominatrix, which is a woman whose definitive role is to dress in an authoritative costume (uniform) and impose her will on submissive men.

Dr. Erich Fromm has written a few extremely interesting chapters on the subject of emerging authoritarianism in American society in his classic, Escape From Freedom. In these chapters he explores the subliminal dynamic of Sado/Masochistic sexual activity and its relationship to real world behaviors in which dominance and submission are played out.

You might find Escape From Freedom interesting as well as educational. (Available from Amazon in paperback.)

 

[MikeK]

I don't think anyone claimed that was illegal. It was just the 3 minutes of ignoring the cop's lawful commands after he got out of the car.

And then he did obey him and then the cop got all antsy.

Not that I saw. Where exactly did he obey the cop?

Mike,

You didn't see it because you don't want to see it.

Look at the video again, at the point immediately before he was jumped by the two cops and tased. He was told to turn around, which he did. Then he was told to put his hands on his head, which he did. But he failed to get on his knees, which there was no good reason for him to do, at which point he was jumped and tortured with taser guns.

Considering the fact that he hadn't broken any laws, do you think there was a good reason to have that man get on his knees?

 

[editec]

The arrogance of those pigs is quite obvious.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Tell you waht. Let me and a couple of other guys shoot you with Tasers and see how much resisting you do. Cops are trained to say "Stop resisting" in order to protect themselves from lawsuits.

YouTube - ‪Drunk Girl Gets Taken Down At Galley-Place Metro Station‬‏

Horse shit. Pure fucking horse shit. Please show us where cops are trained to yell out to protect them themselves from lawsuits.... Need a bridge?

Besides I'll never get hit with a taser, I actually have common sense and a respect for law enforcement.

Why do cops always yell "Stop resisting" when people are getting a bet down, or tasered, even when they are suffering from a concussion so severe they could not resist even if they wanted to?

I do not have to provide links to something that happens every single time cops get into a confrontation with a person. I have not demanded you provide links to police being trained to tell people to stay in their car, have I?

Translation: I was talking out my ass and have no real idea what cops are trained to do.

 

[SFC Ollie]

And people wonder why crime rates are so high............

 

[geauxtohell]

I see Harper's behaviour as totally normal - in the beginning. he was not being unreasonable in any way, shape or form IMO...

i think part of the problem is a function of custom. in this country, if i'm pulled over, i have to keep my hands visible and open the driver's side window. getting out of the car without being asked to is considered threatening behavior. in such an instance, the officer has the right to assume that he is in danger and can act accordingly.

in this case, it appears the person kept walking toward the officer despite being asked to stop. his hands were pocketed and could have concealed anything. the officer was entitled to act with reasonable force to protect himself...in this case using a taser and not deadly force.

Jillian his reaction is normal, at least with me it is. If I know that have have been wrongly stopped I will treat the cop like an ass.

Screaming "are you going to shoot me" and "Fuck you!" at a guy with a weapon pointed at you is "normal"?

I am beginning to see the disconnect.

 

[geauxtohell]

No it's not fuck the police, it's fuck the 85% power hungry punks behind a little piece of metal.

85%? You guys act like you are the victims of consistent police discrimination. The best you can offer is being lawfully stopped by a cop for a traffic offense.

At least NWA had a point. You guys just sound like the typical crotchity white bastard who thinks the rules don't apply to him.

 

[geauxtohell]

That's my point.

If it is not illegal to get out of a car during a traffic stop it is not lawful to order someone to get back into one.

I think it's lawful for a police officer to order someone back into a car.

Can you legally support your assertion?

I'll agree that you can get out, but the second a cop tells you to get back in, it's a lawful order.

Why wouldn't it be?

Because lawful orders can only be issued in a situation where what you are doing is endangering the public, interfering with a police investigation, or breaking a law. That means that, unless it is illegal to get out of a car, it is not lawful to order someone to get back into the car. He can be told to get out of the street, but not to get in the car.

It is perfectly legal for a police officer to give order that secure the safety of the officer and the citizen. You keep making these blanket statements that can't be found anywhere in the code book.

Even if "get back in your car" isn't "lawful" or proper (debatable), every other command he gave was.

If the driver wouldn't have acted erractically, the situation would never have been tense and there would have been no need to draw his weapon or to tell him to put his hands on his head. This officer, who was working on his own and without a partner, was basically left to try and figure out how to make a potentially dangerous situation safer and prevent this guy from getting inadvertantly shot (refer to previous video where the officer would be alive today if he shot the guy (as opposed to pulling out his baton) he pulled over the first time he charged him and put his hands on him.

The driver decided to act like an asshole and, not surprisingly, the situation got out of hand. Then the fuck-stick got a paycheck because his sorry ass got "over tased" when he was on the ground.

The officer that pulled him over wasn't running the taser. I really fail to see how he did anything wrong except try and control the situation.

 

[geauxtohell]

In order to resist arrest someone has to be under arrest. He never resisted because no one even tried to arrest him until after they tased him.

What? You have to place someone under arrest before you can taze them? That makes no sense.

I did not say that. I said you cannot be resisting arrest unless someone is trying to arrest you. Did you see any evidence of them trying to arrest this guy before they tazed him? Did you hear any of them saying anything about him being under arrest?

I believe the resisting charge stemmed from when they were actually arresting him. No, at no point prior to being tased did someone inform him that he was "under arrest".

I agree that it's silly to charge someone with resisting when they are being hit by a taser. Most likely why they lost on that charge.

 

[MikeK]

And people wonder why crime rates are so high............

Ollie,

The U.S. has the highest per capita prison census in the world and we spend far more money on law enforcement than any other nation in the world. The problem is the bulk of those resources are diverted to the counterproductive purpose of fighting the failed War On Drugs.

Fully two thirds of our massive prison populations are there for drug-related offenses. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, and as you'll see for yourself if you'll watch the COPS tv series, our police are preoccupied with making drug arrests (because of the federal subsidies) which undoubtedly was the motivation for the bullshit car-stop we're discussing. And as Quantum Windbag has correctly observed, the amount of resources wasted on such activities, which are considerable, could be devoted to lowering the real crime rate.

So I respectfully suggest that you're pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

 

[SFC Ollie]

it is constitutionally reasonable for officers to order a passenger in lawfully stopped automobile to remain inside the automobile or to reenter the automobile

Traffic Stops and Control of Passengers

 

[geauxtohell]

I was asked how I figure that police do not have unlimited power to issue orders, I answered. They might have special trust and duties, but they cannot issue orders unless they have a legitimate reason. Even then, they have to explain why they are issuing said orders and justify the situation and orders.

That's all good and fine, but it is speculatory on your part. We've cited the reasonable statute and there is no indication that any of the things you've reference are not "lawful orders".

Obviously we could come up with examples, but all the commands given to this driver were in the interest of public safety and directly relevant to the stop. I would imagine, if there is a statute on this, that would be the requirement.

As for justification, officers are under no obligation to justify their orders to an un-ruly and uncooperative individual. As we have a courst system for legal recourse (as noted by the state of Indiana), there is a proper venue to challenge and question that. It is not during the stop.

 

[SFC Ollie]

And people wonder why crime rates are so high............

Ollie,

The U.S. has the highest per capita prison census in the world and we spend far more money on law enforcement than any other nation in the world. The problem is the bulk of those resources are diverted to the counterproductive purpose of fighting the failed War On Drugs.

Fully two thirds of our massive prison populations are there for drug-related offenses. As I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, and as you'll see for yourself if you'll watch the COPS tv series, our police are preoccupied with making drug arrests (because of the federal subsidies) which undoubtedly was the motivation for the bullshit car-stop we're discussing. And as Quantum Windbag has correctly observed, the amount of resources wasted on such activities, which are considerable, could be devoted to lowering the crime rate.

So I respectfully suggest that you're pointing your finger in the wrong direction.

I do not watch much TV. And Cops is never edited or anything right?

How many traffic stops are there in the USA each day? And 85 % of those are problems for you? I hope for you're sake that you never truly need a police officer.