Assault weapons ban

[Underhill]

Your conclusion supposes many things that cannot be supposed.
The most obvious:
-If the banned guns are not part of the 300k stolen guns, the 300k number does not change
-If the banned gun are part of the 300k stolen, it assumes that other kinds of guns will not be stolen instead.

It wasn't perfect. But my point is valid. Gun laws can affect criminals.

CAN effect, sure -- if they do what you think they will do.

Thing is, as their desire and motivation to get a firearm is not limited by any particular loyalty the rule of law or moral code, they usually will not. There are no 'assault weapons'? I'll steal a shotgun.

That criminals do not follow the law is a valid counterpoint to any law that only affects those that obey the law.

And I just demonstrated how it doesn't affect only those that obey the law.

But you are right, criminals will find a way if they are determined. Thing is, they usually aren't. If they were, most likely, they'd have a job.

The primary reason I am against bans is it's too late. There are so many guns in this country that trying to ban them now is futile.

This is not really a good thing.

And I'll explain. I think guns in cities is absurd. I don't think everyone should wear a gun. I could do it. But I have no need for it. I don't know why anyone would want to carry a gun when they don't need to.

I realize the world we live in and some feel they need to carry a gun to feel safe. Fine, I get that, and right or wrong I can understand it in the world we live in. But I find the fact that people are scared enough to find it necessary disgusting.

I hunt, I shoot trap once a week, I am not afraid of guns.

But I do find the fear that says 'I need this gun or I might die' a sad state of affairs.

In an ideal world I would erase the old west gunslingers and their mythology, would get rid of the gangsters and gangbangers and yes, get rid of semi automatics, machine guns and pistols. I don't need them to hunt. Nobody should feel they need them.

But that isn't the world we live in. So we will continue to live in fear. Continue to have way more guns than anyone needs. And I'll continue to be against bans, because it's too late.

Much like the economy, we've been fucked for a long time now.

 

[Spoonman]

It wasn't perfect. But my point is valid. Gun laws can affect criminals.

CAN effect, sure -- if they do what you think they will do.

Thing is, as their desire and motivation to get a firearm is not limited by any particular loyalty the rule of law or moral code, they usually will not. There are no 'assault weapons'? I'll steal a shotgun.

That criminals do not follow the law is a valid counterpoint to any law that only affects those that obey the law.

And I just demonstrated how it doesn't affect only those that obey the law.

But you are right, criminals will find a way if they are determined. Thing is, they usually aren't. If they were, most likely, they'd have a job.

The primary reason I am against bans is it's too late. There are so many guns in this country that trying to ban them now is futile.

This is not really a good thing.

And I'll explain. I think guns in cities is absurd. I don't think everyone should wear a gun. I could do it. But I have no need for it. I don't know why anyone would want to carry a gun when they don't need to.

I realize the world we live in and some feel they need to carry a gun to feel safe. Fine, I get that, and right or wrong I can understand it in the world we live in. But I find the fact that people are scared enough to find it necessary disgusting.

I hunt, I shoot trap once a week, I am not afraid of guns.

But I do find the fear that says 'I need this gun or I might die' a sad state of affairs.

In an ideal world I would erase the old west gunslingers and their mythology, would get rid of the gangsters and gangbangers and yes, get rid of semi automatics, machine guns and pistols. I don't need them to hunt. Nobody should feel they need them.

But that isn't the world we live in. So we will continue to live in fear. Continue to have way more guns than anyone needs. And I'll continue to be against bans, because it's too late.

Much like the economy, we've been fucked for a long time now.

criminals are probably more determined. they just know they can get a bigger payday for less effort and grief than a 9-5. plust they can get welfare and other entitlements on top of it.

It isn't about fear. I have a ton of guns and not one was purchased out of fear. I like to shoot, bottom line. do you buy your hobbies out of fear? you anti gun nuts are so out of touch with why people own guns. you are the ones living in fear. your chances of being shot by one of these deadly assaul rifles with large capacity clips is about the same as being struck by lightning.

 

[The Rabbi]

There are always exceptions to the rules. Nothing is absolute.

one thing that is absolute is that criminals or anyone intent on utilizing a gun for violent purposes will pay absolutely no attention to any law, ban, limitation put on guns. laws already exist that they ignore. passing more laws, making laws stricter impacts no one but law abiding citizens. and all it does is inconvenience them.

Here is a bit of simple math for you. In 2010, 300,000 guns were reported stolen. Probably more went unreported but we'll use those numbers.

That is 300k guns in the hands of criminals in one year. That means, at that rate, there would be 3 million guns in the hands of criminals in 10 years.

Now magically through some weapons ban, reduce the number of legal guns by half. Now there are only half as many guns to steal. Reducing gun theft, if not proportionally, dramatically.

So criminals do not have to obey gun laws for them to affect them.

That's a lot of assumptions rolled up into one. For starters, there are probably already 3M guns in the hands of criminals. Probably more. And if you reduced the number of "legal" guns by half, you would still have 3M+ in the hands of criminals. So the restrictive laws would only affect law abiding people, not criminals.

 

[The Rabbi]

It wasn't perfect. But my point is valid. Gun laws can affect criminals.

CAN effect, sure -- if they do what you think they will do.

Thing is, as their desire and motivation to get a firearm is not limited by any particular loyalty the rule of law or moral code, they usually will not. There are no 'assault weapons'? I'll steal a shotgun.

That criminals do not follow the law is a valid counterpoint to any law that only affects those that obey the law.

And I just demonstrated how it doesn't affect only those that obey the law.

But you are right, criminals will find a way if they are determined. Thing is, they usually aren't. If they were, most likely, they'd have a job.

The primary reason I am against bans is it's too late. There are so many guns in this country that trying to ban them now is futile.

This is not really a good thing.

And I'll explain. I think guns in cities is absurd. I don't think everyone should wear a gun. I could do it. But I have no need for it. I don't know why anyone would want to carry a gun when they don't need to.

I realize the world we live in and some feel they need to carry a gun to feel safe. Fine, I get that, and right or wrong I can understand it in the world we live in. But I find the fact that people are scared enough to find it necessary disgusting.

I hunt, I shoot trap once a week, I am not afraid of guns.

But I do find the fear that says 'I need this gun or I might die' a sad state of affairs.

In an ideal world I would erase the old west gunslingers and their mythology, would get rid of the gangsters and gangbangers and yes, get rid of semi automatics, machine guns and pistols. I don't need them to hunt. Nobody should feel they need them.

But that isn't the world we live in. So we will continue to live in fear. Continue to have way more guns than anyone needs. And I'll continue to be against bans, because it's too late.

Much like the economy, we've been fucked for a long time now.

Really people in cities don't need spare tires either. Do you carry a spare tire in your vehicle?

 

[Wiseacre]

Play nice boys, or I'll kick both of ya outta here.

 

[beagle9]

Suppose this new assault weapon ban is passed and put into law what then? It does nothing to deal with the weapons already out there. What about weapons coming across the border? Our border is weakly secured at best now you have a ban here and that will only increase the flow across border anyone who traffics in guns will know business will be on the upswing unless there is a major push for tight border security which I highly doubt we will have a bigger problem coming across the border than we already do.

Case in point was the "Fast and Furious" debacle, where as the U.S. Government played the gun dealer in the senario created by the set up or it's allowance of the set up there in correct? Next they indirectly sold guns or allowed them to be sold to the Mexicans, who then took those guns back into Mexico for the drug cartels with us having some sort of hope in tracking them, and ultimately it all ended up killing our border agent with one of those guns, and thousands of innocent Mexican citizens I would imagine... Smart move that was huh? NOT!!!!!!

So what will underground Mexico do next in response to our problem and debate over gun control, in which I bet the world is watching with baited breath on? Maybe begin to and/or see an opportunity to flood the U.S. Border with illegal guns from around the world, to then sell to the underworld here next, just as they have been doing for so long with these drugs and such ? These lefties want to solve the drug problem in this nation by legalizing it, yet why don't they feel the same about keeping the guns in the hands of legal gun owning law abiding citizens, and this in order to limit or reduce response time in crime, while getting the illegal guns out of the hands of the bad guy's who are doing this killing ?

 

[beagle9]

Seriously? Almost every law on the books has mandatory sentences far harsher than at anytime in US history.

Is that why convicted murder William Spangler was out and free to ambush and shoot 4 firefighters, killing two of them last month ?

There are always exceptions to the rules. Nothing is absolute.

And your exceptions to the rules comment, is what the problem with liberals or the lefties are right now. They except every excuse on earth for criminals, and then defend them to the max. Then when they (the criminals) do what they do (repeat offend) again they are excused by the softies, but this time it is done out of shame for their ignorance on the matter, because if they say it was wrong to have freed a bad perp, then it reveals their weakness and foolishness on such matters big time, and therefore it reduces their intelectual clout or prestige in which they think they have upon all issues pertaining too. Remember Michael Dekakis and that pardon or something it was in which came back to haunt him real bad in that election ? Wow I couldn't believe it back then, and I sure don't believe what is going on right now in America.

 

[beagle9]

Pre-ban clips are not illegal in NY (Or weren't prior to the latest regulations). And I have dozens of friends with guns and exactly one with a couple 30 round clips (probably the only one of them who shouldn't as he's a bit mental).

OK so you didnt answer any questions. Your personal experience is not really very relevant here.

All the time. I'm a hunter and virtually all my friends hunt. I own 8 guns myself.

And as I did answer, the clips are not illegal, so there is no reason anyone would have hid them.

Of course I realize anyone could get clips and bring them here. What has that got to do with the discussion? People do not need 30 round clips so most people just don't care.

The reduction from 10 to 7 is just silly though. What is the point there?

The huge problem with liberals or progressive these days, is this thinking that they know what people do or don't need even as adults in this nation anymore, and then they are trying to take something from people whom they shouldn't be trying to take from. They are complete fools is what they are, and that is sad to say about them, but they are soft and a scared people whom live in fear, and so they want our teeth removed next, because they think we will eat them shockingly enough. LOL

We won't eat no body, but that bear sure ate that liberal guy whom thought he could live with them, and yes he I think he was a tree hugging cursing liberal from hades is what he was, who thought the bears would except him as one of them or at least until the bear ate him and his lady friend next right ? There are many other accounts of such idiocy we all know about, yet we put the blinders on to all of this stuff, and then we subject our children to these idiots, whom try and brainwash our children next with all these lies.

Pit bulls are trained on purpose these days by bad people, where as they are also hurting people or even killing people, just as well as dog's when in fights, but when the ban on pit bulls was considered by various city governments, the liberals came out swinging hard. The owners of these pit's lose total control of them when they attack a human, but the legal gun owner never loses control of his weapon/gun as they do, but the owners of guns are attempted to be grouped in with the criminals by the left or libs/softies, because they have an agenda that they feel cannot be fullfilled with this having the guns remain in the hands of the many law abiding U.S. citizens over all, and if not, then why are they targetting them in these proposed bans now ? The law abiding citizens have done no wrong, but they are now equal to or being lumped in with the most henious of the criminals all of a sudden ?

What other explanation is there that is going down in this nation now ? I mean look at what the knuckle head Bloomberg is doing in New York, in which I think is sheeple test now or means testing on these issues by what he has been up to lately.

 

[Circe]

It isn't about fear. I have a ton of guns and not one was purchased out of fear. I like to shoot, bottom line. do you buy your hobbies out of fear? you anti gun nuts are so out of touch with why people own guns. you are the ones living in fear. your chances of being shot by one of these deadly assaul rifles with large capacity clips is about the same as being struck by lightning.

It's hard to understand why you all buy so many guns. Are you hoping for the Revolution? That's what I suspect.

You say you just --- like to shoot. But how can you shoot 20 guns? You only have two hands, and a lot of these guns, like assault rifles, you couldn't really use two at once.

I understand hobbies getting out of control -- it's easy to buy, hard to use up. I have too much yarn and too many books. However, when I fantasize using my yarn, I'm thinking of knitting sweaters and hats, not killing people! When I make lists of what books to read next, I'm thinking of reading pleasure, not killing people.

I think there is a big problem with having a hobby that has at its base a desire to kill other people.

And when you collect lots of guns, madmen are forever stealing the coolest ones and going out and shooting children and shoppers. Why tempt them?

 

[OODA_Loop]

You say you just --- like to shoot. But how can you shoot 20 guns? You only have two hands, and a lot of these guns, like assault rifles, you couldn't really use two at once.

I have a stand that allows me to shoot all 20 at once.

It is a black stand and it is really scary.

 

[beagle9]

It is sorta amazing how the so called constitutional folks find reasons and quotations from over two hundred years ago to justify in their minds activities in the modern world. Shame they don't all have muskets too. But consider why the same ideologues do not argue against woman being able to vote for surely good reasons exist and quotes can be found. Let's not mention slavery either for John C. Calhoun had wonderful lines for the good of slavery. How wonderful it was for the slaves. When you live in the past, the present becomes a bizarre chimera. Is it any wonder the republicans, aka American conservatives, fail so badly when given the reins of power?

If there were a ban on whining, the right wing would be speechless, slippery slopes, oh, slippery slope - oh wait - let's go back to the days of great depression type crashes, pollution, lead paint, witch doctors, and toxic air for if we ban them the slippery slope begins and who knows where that might lead.

Peace only exist within pockets of time, and this to be found in societies, civilized nations or within any nation in the world for that matter. It only exist at various times in history as found in good over all percentages wise, and all one can do is yearn that they may be born into one of them pockets of time, in so that they can experience such a time as would be lived in that pocket, but if not, then they can go back and reference their history upon when a time was good & peaceful in percentages of, and then realize why it was peaceful within the time pocket for which they have referenced, then they can speak to this time period to others. They can also give reference to the time period or pocket in which it exist unto others, and this so they can become wise as to why it was peaceful and good as well. Then they can learn how to maybe get back to a time that can add to the possibility of peace along with the current period as is lived. If people are open to these positive pockets of peace within a world that is all but mad most of the time, then we might have a chance in re-living a time of peace by way of recipe that was used within these past pockets maybe.

Trying as you are to work your voodoo on a subject in the way that you try and work it in your opinions of, reveals your ignorance on such matters of pockets of peace being referenced within times, how they were achieved, why they were successful and etc. where as society as a percentage was more peaceful than say another pocket in time where it was not more peaceful, and this as we are seeing during these times in which we are all living now.

Those for whom are found whining and whining, and this within some of those whom are eternally bitter and whining on the left always, would wish or say that we have never lived in peace in America, and they abore anyone suggesting that we have ever lived in peace in America.

They do this because of a past in which they had been born into, that may have had a different experience for them within a pocket of time, and in which may have not been so peaceful for them as seen in their eyes back then or was found within their experience of back then within a pocket of time.

Now regardless of the percentages of those who may have had a bad experience within the fewer numbers found in the over all throughout time, in which these numbers were very low at these times considering the majority of citizens in country, they never will erase the good and peaceful times that were experienced by many people of all colors in America at any given time, and even though we were working through the problems that we had in these times, and we are still working through the problems that we have currently in order to get peace again for which was found in a pocket of time, ((they cannot rob us of our history found within the peaceful times that existed within these pockets for all involved)), and they never will.

Beware of the individuals whom want to rob us of our happyness on and on, because they feel they had been robbed of theirs somewhere within a pocket of time, in which we have worked through for all involved over time within these pockets, and at great sacrifices was it all done, yet they want to remain bitter by suggesting America can never be happy and/or was never happy or peaceful because of or maybe until what next maybe ?

 

[The Rabbi]

It isn't about fear. I have a ton of guns and not one was purchased out of fear. I like to shoot, bottom line. do you buy your hobbies out of fear? you anti gun nuts are so out of touch with why people own guns. you are the ones living in fear. your chances of being shot by one of these deadly assaul rifles with large capacity clips is about the same as being struck by lightning.

It's hard to understand why you all buy so many guns. Are you hoping for the Revolution? That's what I suspect.

You say you just --- like to shoot. But how can you shoot 20 guns? You only have two hands, and a lot of these guns, like assault rifles, you couldn't really use two at once.

I understand hobbies getting out of control -- it's easy to buy, hard to use up. I have too much yarn and too many books. However, when I fantasize using my yarn, I'm thinking of knitting sweaters and hats, not killing people! When I make lists of what books to read next, I'm thinking of reading pleasure, not killing people.

I think there is a big problem with having a hobby that has at its base a desire to kill other people.

And when you collect lots of guns, madmen are forever stealing the coolest ones and going out and shooting children and shoppers. Why tempt them?

Non gun people will never understand the hobby. Every gun is different. I have a shotgun that I use for trap. Actually 2, 20ga and 12ga. I have one rifle I might use for hunting. One rifle I use for precision target shooting. One rifle I just like to shoot because it's so darn fun. I have some handguns that have historic interest, like a 1908 Webley .32 like the British police used. Or a 1911 GI spec pistol like people carried in WW2. I have a Mini 14 because, well, an assault rifle is always a good idea. I have a couple of .22s for teaching new comers how to shoot, or to dispatch a critter. Now I am wanting an 1895 Winchester in 30-40 Krag because Teddy Roosevelt had one in the Spanish American war. And that doesn't count guns I carry for self defense on a regular basis, that I practice with in case of need.

 

[Circe]

I have a Mini 14 because, well, an assault rifle is always a good idea.

Well, WHY is an assault rifle "always a good idea"?

We know the killer kids think so: it's their weapon of choice for mass murder, presumably because it looks like the ones in the video shooter games. Why is it always a good idea for you?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Well, WHY is an assault rifle "always a good idea"?

Because you do not know what will happen tomorrow.

 

[varelse]

There are always exceptions to the rules. Nothing is absolute.

one thing that is absolute is that criminals or anyone intent on utilizing a gun for violent purposes will pay absolutely no attention to any law, ban, limitation put on guns. laws already exist that they ignore. passing more laws, making laws stricter impacts no one but law abiding citizens. and all it does is inconvenience them.

Here is a bit of simple math for you. In 2010, 300,000 guns were reported stolen. Probably more went unreported but we'll use those numbers.

That is 300k guns in the hands of criminals in one year. That means, at that rate, there would be 3 million guns in the hands of criminals in 10 years.

Now magically through some weapons ban, reduce the number of legal guns by half. Now there are only half as many guns to steal. Reducing gun theft, if not proportionally, dramatically.

So criminals do not have to obey gun laws for them to affect them.

So 100 less guns stolen and a few tens-of-thousands victims now left without means to defend themselves?

You actually like the way that works?

 

[KissMy]

I think Biden actually got it right on this one. It's less about the type of gun than the amount of ammo it can hold. Even then it won't stop anything, but it could make a marginal difference that might save a few lives a year.

How do you know it won't cost a few lives a year?

"Criminals are three times more likely to be killed by their victims than by the police."

Why Guns Deter Criminals

"Advocates of gun control have paid for several studies, hoping to prove that guns are not useful for self-defense. But every study has shown the opposite: Handguns are used at least as often in repelling crimes as in committing them and are particularly successful as weapons of defense.

In the 1960s a New York-based antigun group printed signs for its members to post on their homes, "THERE ARE NO GUNS IN THIS HOUSE." But the signs came down and the organization withered after a large number of those homes were robbed or burglarized. On the other hand, during a 1974 police strike in Albuquerque, N. M., armed citizens patrolled the streets - and felonies dropped sharply.

Americans use firearms for protection an estimated one million times each year. Ninety-eight percent of the time, they simply brandish the weapon or fire a warning shot. But not always. Each year, gun-wielding citizens kill an estimated 2,000 to 3,000 criminals in self-defense, three times the number killed by police.
They wound another 9,000 to 17,000 criminals each year. "Criminals are three times more likely to be killed by their victims than by the police."

Criminals may not read statistical studies, but they are generally aware of the large number of firearms in existence and of the fact that law-abiding citizens own most of them. Although violent crime and total crime reported to the police is much higher in the United States than in Western Europe, U.S. burglary rates are about the same, or lower, probably because of the deterrent effect of civilian firearms. Burglars say they spend an average of two hours "casing" a house to establish that no one is at home. They avoid late-night burglaries because "that's the way to get shot."

Interviews with convicted felons are especially revealing. A survey of 1,874 felons in 10 states found that most worry more about meeting an armed victim than about running into the police. 42 percent reported they had encountered a victim armed with a gun, and 38 percent had been scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim. A majority agreed that "a store owner who is known to keep a gun on the premises is not going to get robbed very often."

 

[9thIDdoc]

It isn't about fear. I have a ton of guns and not one was purchased out of fear. I like to shoot, bottom line. do you buy your hobbies out of fear? you anti gun nuts are so out of touch with why people own guns. you are the ones living in fear. your chances of being shot by one of these deadly assaul rifles with large capacity clips is about the same as being struck by lightning.

It's hard to understand why you all buy so many guns. Are you hoping for the Revolution? That's what I suspect.

You say you just --- like to shoot. But how can you shoot 20 guns? You only have two hands, and a lot of these guns, like assault rifles, you couldn't really use two at once.

I understand hobbies getting out of control -- it's easy to buy, hard to use up. I have too much yarn and too many books. However, when I fantasize using my yarn, I'm thinking of knitting sweaters and hats, not killing people! When I make lists of what books to read next, I'm thinking of reading pleasure, not killing people.

I think there is a big problem with having a hobby that has at its base a desire to kill other people.

And when you collect lots of guns, madmen are forever stealing the coolest ones and going out and shooting children and shoppers. Why tempt them?

"It's hard to understand why you all buy so many guns. Are you hoping for the Revolution? That's what I suspect.

You say you just --- like to shoot. But how can you shoot 20 guns? You only have two hands, and a lot of these guns, like assault rifles, you couldn't really use two at once."

Somehow I suspect you own more than one color of yarn and several diferent books even if you can't use but one at a time. How is it you can trust all those people who run around with whole bags full of clubs with the specific intent of doing violence to small innocent golf balls?

"It's hard to understand why you all buy so many guns..."

It's only hard if you do not make an attempt and actual knowledge might hamper your ability to spout such nasty lies as:
"I think there is a big problem with having a hobby that has at its base a desire to kill other people."

 

[The Rabbi]

Well, WHY is an assault rifle "always a good idea"?

We know the killer kids think so: it's their weapon of choice for mass murder, presumably because it looks like the ones in the video shooter games. Why is it always a good idea for you?

It's also the weapon of choice for most killer police depts. actually the Mini has been the choice for prison systems.
As pointed out, you never know. People in NOLA found this out, as did some in LA.

 

[jtpr312]

Suppose this new assault weapon ban is passed and put into law what then? It does nothing to deal with the weapons already out there. What about weapons coming across the border? Our border is weakly secured at best now you have a ban here and that will only increase the flow across border anyone who traffics in guns will know business will be on the upswing unless there is a major push for tight border security which I highly doubt we will have a bigger problem coming across the border than we already do.

From everything I've read guns are a bigger problem going the other way. The cartels buy legal guns in pro gun states, where there are virtually no limits on the numbers and type of guns purchased, and smuggle them across the border.

The Cartels do what makes them money. It's basic economics for them. Supply and demand. Limit the supply here, the demand goes up, the Cartels start including firearms with their dope deliveries. The black market dealings in firearms is a world wide business woth billions, upon billions of dollars. America has never had to worry much about that because of our right to legaly purchase them, deny that right, and viola, you have just added more millions to the drug cartles and millions to other organized crime entities.

 

[Underhill]

one thing that is absolute is that criminals or anyone intent on utilizing a gun for violent purposes will pay absolutely no attention to any law, ban, limitation put on guns. laws already exist that they ignore. passing more laws, making laws stricter impacts no one but law abiding citizens. and all it does is inconvenience them.

Here is a bit of simple math for you. In 2010, 300,000 guns were reported stolen. Probably more went unreported but we'll use those numbers.

That is 300k guns in the hands of criminals in one year. That means, at that rate, there would be 3 million guns in the hands of criminals in 10 years.

Now magically through some weapons ban, reduce the number of legal guns by half. Now there are only half as many guns to steal. Reducing gun theft, if not proportionally, dramatically.

So criminals do not have to obey gun laws for them to affect them.

So 100 less guns stolen and a few tens-of-thousands victims now left without means to defend themselves?

You actually like the way that works?

Nope, never said that.

I said the premise people are using to defend guns is flawed.

Ever see the picture of the guy standing out there with the Tea Partiers with a big sign reading "Get a Brain Morans". He made the entire protest look like idiots.

That is what this kind of reasoning does for the pro gun crowd.