Bring Back the Draft?

[georgephillip]

Was JFK on the downward slope of Pentagon poop?

"According to author James Douglass, Kennedy was assassinated because he was turning away from the Cold War and seeking a negotiated peace with the Soviet Union.[211] Douglass argues that this 'was not the kind of leadership the CIA, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the military-industrial complex wanted in the White House.'"[212]

John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's some indication that the Cuban Missile Crisis scared Kennedy and Khrushchev into seeking to prematurely end the cold war. I know from personal experience those 13 days in October of 1962 constitute one of only two instances in my 65 years when ALL Americans were paying minute by minute attention to all things political.

 

[old navy]

Was JFK on the downward slope of Pentagon poop?

"According to author James Douglass, Kennedy was assassinated because he was turning away from the Cold War and seeking a negotiated peace with the Soviet Union.[211] Douglass argues that this 'was not the kind of leadership the CIA, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the military-industrial complex wanted in the White House.'"[212]

John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's some indication that the Cuban Missile Crisis scared Kennedy and Khrushchev into seeking to prematurely end the cold war. I know from personal experience those 13 days in October of 1962 constitute one of only two instances in my 65 years when ALL Americans were paying minute by minute attention to all things political.

wow, and without the Internet even.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The draft is a terrible idea.

I served with a bunch of morans that signed up on their own, some wanted to be in, others couldn't wait to get out.

No way in hell would a quality military thrive with draftees.

When did you serve?
Where?

How did the local unemployment rate factor into your decision to enlist, if at all?

1986 - 1995
US Navy
East Coast and The Med.

0%

 

[tjvh]

McChrystal brings up good points for discussion. I believe the draft should be used to raise an army when numbers beyond current numbers are needed. The end-strength numbers are set by the congress and today we have people lined up for miles trying to join all branches in both officer and enlisted programs.

During the height of Iraq and A'stan, troops were doing back-tp-back tours, three and four or more tours, and the equipment was getting worn and torn as well. The stressors from combat operations are starting to lessen but the country will be caring for broken limbs and minds for many years. The last study I saw showed that half the personnel who committed suicide in the Army had not even seen combat. Would drafted Soldiers commit suicide at a lesser rate?

I'm not sure what the suicide numbers were during Vietnam.
I'm pretty sure the fragging numbers were higher in those days:

"Such was the military-cultural context for calls for the draft: huge ground forces stocked with draftees. What we have now is precisely the opposite – robot/drone wars, with no need for suicidal soldiers or politically awkward draftee casualties. The money all goes to Lockheed and the other big aerospace companies.

"Remember there’s a good reason why they abolished the conscript army. It mutinied in Vietnam and thus was a prime factor in America’s defeat.

Would You Dodge the Draft in Afghanistan? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

See red above^...Whaaaaaaaaat?????????? You don't have a lick of sense do you.

 

[georgephillip]

You don't know much History, do you?
Are you any better with mythology?

"...(t)he myth goes: if only we had let the military do what it was capable of, the war could have ended with victory.

"Unleashing the military was not the option that pro-war pundits imagined it to be. As David Cortright painstakingly explains in his book, Soldiers in Revolt: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War, recently reissued by Haymarket Books, a massive revolt of enlisted men emerged to oppose the War.

"Former Marine Colonel Robert Heinl lamented in his classic article, “The Death of the Army” in 1971: 'the morale, discipline and battle-worthiness of the U.S. armed forces are, with a few salient exceptions, lower and worse than at any time in this century and possibly in the history of the United States.'”

Soldiers in Revolt

 

[georgephillip]

Was JFK on the downward slope of Pentagon poop?

"According to author James Douglass, Kennedy was assassinated because he was turning away from the Cold War and seeking a negotiated peace with the Soviet Union.[211] Douglass argues that this 'was not the kind of leadership the CIA, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the military-industrial complex wanted in the White House.'"[212]

John F. Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's some indication that the Cuban Missile Crisis scared Kennedy and Khrushchev into seeking to prematurely end the cold war. I know from personal experience those 13 days in October of 1962 constitute one of only two instances in my 65 years when ALL Americans were paying minute by minute attention to all things political.

wow, and without the Internet even.

No internet AND no talk radio.
There were a lot of GI Coffee Houses, however:

"Cortright divides GI opposition into the 'GI Movement' and 'GI Resistance.' The 'GI Movement' refers to carefully planned opposition within the military and purposeful protest-- actions that were designed to exert pressure on politicians and the higher echelons of the military.

"GIs signed petitions, placed advertisements in newspapers, formed picket lines, and marched at the head of peace demonstrations.

"They built organizations, created media, set up networks and agitated. What we might think of as 'normal' political activity was undertaken at considerable risk, though. Free speech was severely restricted. On post, public assembly, distribution of literature, or other displays of dissent were strictly forbidden."

Soldiers in Revolt

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The draft is a terrible idea.

I served with a bunch of morans that signed up on their own, some wanted to be in, others couldn't wait to get out.

You know the Morans? I always thought they were very nice people.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The number one mandate from the U.S. Constitution is national defense. I have no problem with a larger part of my tax dollar going toward that end, but social security, Medicare and Medicaid, and other entitlements take close to equal amounts.

Post #8 above labeled national security as an entitlement that consumed 50 percent of tax dollars and the Gunny rightly disputed that. Regardless of the social, ideological, or political arguments for a draft, none is needed at this time. I agree with the Gunny also where he stated we need even more military assets. The U.S. military is stretched way too thin and still will be when we get back to routine deployment cycles.

The military wouldn't be stretched so thin if we stopped engaging in wars of choice.

 

[elvis]

Obama should reinstate the draft before the election.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Can we afford to spend more than one-half of every tax dollar on "shock and awe?"

"The military is the nation's largest and most firmly entrenched entitlement program, one that takes half of every tax dollar. Even if 'national security' is considered our No. 1 priority (a dubious choice when the real unemployment rate is over 16 percent), estimates are that the military budget could be cut in half or more and we would still have the most powerful military machine in the world.

"Our enemies (if any) are now 'terrorists,' not countries; and what is needed to contain them (if anything) is local policing, not global warfare. Much of our military hardware is just good for 'shock and awe,' not needed for any 'real and present danger.'"

The Military as a Jobs Program: There Are More Efficient Ways to Stimulate an Economy

The claim the military costs 50 percent has been debunked over and over. But you keep proving how stupid you are by claiming otherwise.

I'm not stupid enough to confuse the Pentagon's base budget numbers with the military's total cost to the US taxpayer. Are you?

"$235.6 Billion – The increase in the Pentagon’s annual 'Base' budget (not including war costs or the nuclear weapons activities of the Department of Energy) from FY2000 to FY2011. The Pentagon’s annual budget rose from $290.5 billion to $526.1 billion (in constant FY 2012 dollars), a real increase of 43 percent. See NPP's analysis "U.S. Security Spending Since 9/11."

"$6.6 Billion – The increase in the Department of Energy’s budget for nuclear weapons activities over the same period. DoE’s weapons budget rose from $12.4 billion to $19.0 billion (in constant FY 2012 dollars), a real increase of 21 percent. See NPP's analysis "U.S. Security Spending Since 9/11"

"39 Percent – The percentage of interest on the national debt related to past military spending. Net interest on the national debt for Fiscal Year 2011 is estimated at $207 billion, of which past military spending would account for roughly $80 billion. Source: National Priorities Project"

Top Ten "Security Spending" Numbers (You Need to Know) | COSTOFWAR.COM

Again no where near 50 percent. But lets play your stupid game. The Constitution lists the National Defense as a major priority for Congress, authorizing tax payer money to pay for it. Care to provide me the portion of the Constitution that provides for SS, Medicare, Medicaid, HUD,Food Stamps, Education, or any other social program which do eat up over 50 percent of the budget?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You don't know much History, do you?
Are you any better with mythology?

"...(t)he myth goes: if only we had let the military do what it was capable of, the war could have ended with victory.

"Unleashing the military was not the option that pro-war pundits imagined it to be. As David Cortright painstakingly explains in his book, Soldiers in Revolt: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War, recently reissued by Haymarket Books, a massive revolt of enlisted men emerged to oppose the War.

"Former Marine Colonel Robert Heinl lamented in his classic article, “The Death of the Army” in 1971: 'the morale, discipline and battle-worthiness of the U.S. armed forces are, with a few salient exceptions, lower and worse than at any time in this century and possibly in the history of the United States.'”

Soldiers in Revolt

You obviously do not know what Mutiny means. And you have yet to provide us a single incident of Mutiny. Much less the entire Army doing so.

Perhaps you can name the operations that were canceled because of this supposed Mutiny? The trials held to Court martial the Mutineers? The pitched battles between loyal troops and the mutineers? Something that actually shows unit Mutinied?

 

[georgephillip]

The claim the military costs 50 percent has been debunked over and over. But you keep proving how stupid you are by claiming otherwise.

I'm not stupid enough to confuse the Pentagon's base budget numbers with the military's total cost to the US taxpayer. Are you?

"$235.6 Billion – The increase in the Pentagon’s annual 'Base' budget (not including war costs or the nuclear weapons activities of the Department of Energy) from FY2000 to FY2011. The Pentagon’s annual budget rose from $290.5 billion to $526.1 billion (in constant FY 2012 dollars), a real increase of 43 percent. See NPP's analysis "U.S. Security Spending Since 9/11."

"$6.6 Billion – The increase in the Department of Energy’s budget for nuclear weapons activities over the same period. DoE’s weapons budget rose from $12.4 billion to $19.0 billion (in constant FY 2012 dollars), a real increase of 21 percent. See NPP's analysis "U.S. Security Spending Since 9/11"

"39 Percent – The percentage of interest on the national debt related to past military spending. Net interest on the national debt for Fiscal Year 2011 is estimated at $207 billion, of which past military spending would account for roughly $80 billion. Source: National Priorities Project"

Top Ten "Security Spending" Numbers (You Need to Know) | COSTOFWAR.COM

Again no where near 50 percent. But lets play your stupid game. The Constitution lists the National Defense as a major priority for Congress, authorizing tax payer money to pay for it. Care to provide me the portion of the Constitution that provides for SS, Medicare, Medicaid, HUD,Food Stamps, Education, or any other social program which do eat up over 50 percent of the budget?

"Section. 8.

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States..."

Maybe John Roberts can help you understand this part?

Would you personally rather have you tax dollars spent killing innocent human beings on the opposite side of the planet or providing subsistence to citizens of this country?

Transcript of the Constitution of the United States - Official Text

 

[georgephillip]

You don't know much History, do you?
Are you any better with mythology?

"...(t)he myth goes: if only we had let the military do what it was capable of, the war could have ended with victory.

"Unleashing the military was not the option that pro-war pundits imagined it to be. As David Cortright painstakingly explains in his book, Soldiers in Revolt: GI Resistance During the Vietnam War, recently reissued by Haymarket Books, a massive revolt of enlisted men emerged to oppose the War.

"Former Marine Colonel Robert Heinl lamented in his classic article, “The Death of the Army” in 1971: 'the morale, discipline and battle-worthiness of the U.S. armed forces are, with a few salient exceptions, lower and worse than at any time in this century and possibly in the history of the United States.'”

Soldiers in Revolt

You obviously do not know what Mutiny means. And you have yet to provide us a single incident of Mutiny. Much less the entire Army doing so.

Perhaps you can name the operations that were canceled because of this supposed Mutiny? The trials held to Court martial the Mutineers? The pitched battles between loyal troops and the mutineers? Something that actually shows unit Mutinied?

"Organizing within the military first gained attention in 1966 when the 'Fort Hood 3' became the first soldiers to refuse publicly to go to Vietnam. In late1967, Fred Gardner, a Vietnam vet, launched the GI coffee house movement with a coffeehouse outside Ft Jackson, S.C. using $10,000 of his own money and the idea that soldiers were unhappy with military life and needed a place where they could relax and talk about the war and military life. Within a short period, this project was attracting 600 visitors a week."

Soldiers in Revolt

Here's another:

"The Presidio mutiny was a sit-down protest carried out by 27 prisoners at the Presidio stockade in San Francisco, California on October 14, 1968. The stiff sentences given out at courts martial for the participants (known as the Presidio 27) attracted attention to the extent of sentiment against the Vietnam War in the armed forces."

Presidio mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[ginscpy]

I'm not sure what the suicide numbers were during Vietnam.
I'm pretty sure the fragging numbers were higher in those days:

"Such was the military-cultural context for calls for the draft: huge ground forces stocked with draftees. What we have now is precisely the opposite – robot/drone wars, with no need for suicidal soldiers or politically awkward draftee casualties. The money all goes to Lockheed and the other big aerospace companies.

"Remember there’s a good reason why they abolished the conscript army. It mutinied in Vietnam and thus was a prime factor in America’s defeat.

Would You Dodge the Draft in Afghanistan? » Counterpunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

You are either stupid or a liar, or perhaps you can provide for us evidence that any Mutiny occurred by the military during the Vietnam war.

"An American soldier in a hospital explained how he was wounded: He said 'I was told that the way to tell a hostile Vietnamese from a friendly Vietnamese was to shout "To hell with Ho Chi Minh!" If he shoots, he’s unfriendly. So I saw this dude and yelled ‘To hell with Ho Chi Minh!’ and he yelled back, ‘To hell with President Johnson!’ We were shaking hands when a truck hit us.”
- from 1,001 Ways to Beat the Draft, by Tuli Kupferburg."

1961-1973: GI resistance in the Vietnam War | libcom.org

At least the guy who yelled back got the correct American president. (regardless of the date of the incident)

 

[old navy]

Obama should reinstate the draft before the election.

Do you have a reason for the draft or any useful contribution to the topic?

Plus, Obama does not have the authority or the balls to institute anything.

 

[old navy]

The draft is a terrible idea.

I served with a bunch of morans that signed up on their own, some wanted to be in, others couldn't wait to get out.

You know the Morans? I always thought they were very nice people.

Virginia has a Congressman Moran. He is a true moron.

 

[editec]

If it was TRULY UNIVERSAL and actually FAIR, perhaps.


Of course it never was and never will be.

 

[there4eyeM]

Universal service can be regarded as democratic, but it is also extremely expensive and not very efficient. The US draft was selective, not universal, so it was not democratic. Thus, a disproportionate number of killed and wounded in Vietnam were poor and undereducated minorities.
What is needed is more effort to understand and work with other peoples, not kill them.
Peace is cheaper than war. The major cause of wars has often been a previous war. Peace begets peace.

 

[georgephillip]

"Military spending is the very essence of 'built-in obsolescence': it turns out products that are designed to blow up. The military is not subject to ordinary market principles, but works on a 'cost-plus' basis, with producers reimbursed for whatever they have spent plus a guaranteed profit.

"Gone are the usual competitive restraints that keep capitalist corporations 'lean and mean.'

"Private contractors hired by the government on no-bid contracts can be as wasteful and inefficient as they like and still make a tidy profit. Yet, legislators looking to slash wasteful "entitlements" persist in overlooking this obvious elephant in the room."

The Military as a Jobs Program: There Are More Efficient Ways to Stimulate an Economy

FDR's Works Progress Administration depended heavily on the US Army Corps of Engineers to organize and oversee operations, a sort of boots-on-the-ground presence that makes life better for those on the receiving end.

High-speed rail (passenger & freight) from the Yucatan to the Yukon...?

It could happen, but probably not if you limit your choice in the voting booth to Democrat OR Republican.

 

[georgephillip]

If it was TRULY UNIVERSAL and actually FAIR, perhaps.


Of course it never was and never will be.

Are you surprised that conservatives are preparing to nominate yet another rich, draft dodger for commander-in-chief? This time they've found one who went to France instead of Vietnam, possibly in search of "Freedom Fries?"

On the other hand, I still believe Social Security, as we know, it is a goner if Obama gets a second term.

I'm voting Socialist this time.

You?