California Leg. OKs funding for high-speed rail line

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

So the state stands on the edge of financial ruin and are off to the races to bury the state in additional debt. How pathetic and irresponsible can one get. Oh well it is after all California, land of fruits and nuts.

The people of California keep voting these imbeciles back in office so they get what they deserve.

 

[Oddball]

and the pot holes on the freeways just get bigger .......

Moonbeam hates freeways.

 

[Oddball]

Who here understands/knows the measures requirements in CA? What I am asking is to what extent and how is the state required to fulfill the mandate of the popular vote?

Every proposition is backed by a bond or tax funding, my assumption is that the financing kicked in already therefore the state is required to build. Or, is there an out in such a case as this one whereby the needs exceed the initial prop's funding projections?

I don't know, I am asking. Would be interesing to understand.

My quick thought is the vote held on Friday was to actually appropriate the funding.
In does mention federal stim funds in here:

High-speed rail squeaks through California Senate - Transportation - The Sacramento Bee
I am too tired to read Cali Code right now.

Right....They can't afford it even with the federal handout, so let's beat cheeks to get the money anyways.

Fornicalia legislators should patent and bottle this brand of stoopit.

 

[Wry Catcher]

These fucking imbeciles. they have saddled us with a money giant suck, that will make the Big Dig look like 2 toddlers in a sandbox, initial segment my ass, once it starts, its on.... they will whine that they cannot stop and 'waste all the money we have spent already', we have seen this shit before.

Just wait, as surely as night follows day...... ridership will be flat, subsidies will follow, then theres the inevitable unionized labor to run this boondoggle, everyone will, IF it is done in 2033....2033 hello, stand around arguing over the money drain, wondering why California has its very own Amtrak charity....

The ballot that we ( not me ) approved 3 years ago had a price tag of $34 Billion , that is now estimated at wait for it..............$98 Billion ( the article below has the wrong cost btw). I'm beside myself.


California OKs funding for high-speed rail line

By JUDY LIN
Associated Press

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- California lawmakers approved billions of dollars Friday in construction financing for the initial segment of the nation's first dedicated high-speed rail line connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco.

The move marked a major political victory for Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown and the Obama administration. Both have promoted bullet trains as job generators and clean transportation alternatives.

more at-
News from The Associated Press

You're so myopic it's all most funny. In San Francisco early in the 20th Century the City leaders build two light rail lines (N Judah & L Taravel) into the Sand Dunes 50 blocks West to the Pacific and 20 blocks North to South (from Golden Gate Part to Lake Merced). With this simple foresight the "Outside Lands" became a viable resource and Henry Dolger and other builders put in nearly 20,000 homes during the boom after WWII.

 

[Katzndogz]

Wasn't this measure approved by the voters four years ago?

no, it was 3 years, and at a price of $34Billion and a completion date of 2020, at a ticket price far enough below airline fares to draw ridership ( they argued) etc etc etc ..thats is all out the window now.

No it wasn't approved by the voters. What the voters approved was a high speed train from Victorville to Las Vegas. This is a high speed train from Bakersfield to San Francisco. If it wasn't passed this month, the state would lose 5 billion from the federal government that was allocated to build the rail line.

The rail line from Victorville to Las Vegas was supposed to cost 68 billion, but now estimates to complete it are upwards of 300 billion. The voters now oppose that line and would vote against it today. That's why the Bakersfield to San Francisco line was never put to a vote.

 

[Trajan]

i am not sure the rail vision is shit, in fact i see it as exactly that 'visionary' however the mismanagement is shit, just look at the bay bridge project.

having been a san francisco/los angeles commuter a couple times per week, trust me the rail alternative was attractive. and there are many who work the same schedule. the time it takes to check in get thru security and fly is considerably more than the three plus hours on the train...and on the train I could be productive.

the concept depot in san francisco is spot on, exactly what that area needs. would make direct access by tourists viable and interesting.

again, the concept keeps up with international standards. unfortunately those in charge have no business/project standars.

*shrugs*

well, 1) at 430 miles, 3 hours is a pipe dream, no routed Amtrak or train has ever made the trip according to their pie in the sky figures,they do a straight line stop to stop ( sf -la) at the highest speed computation capable by the train , you have slow down sections, stops etc.....

2)the LA Times has been all over this, air fare is approx. $140. if you are a frequent traveler you can get thru security in 20 minutes. I have, Easily. And go ahead and drive to the terminal site for the train in SF, its no better than the airport. The last price I saw that they would consider for the ticket was $80 in today’s dollars. So if I pay someone an extra 3 hours on the clock, so they could take the train, that 'savings', vaporizes. If I pay them to say overnight ...? same , same...except now I am in for the cost of a hotel, meals, etc etc ...

3) the flight time is 1 hour 10 minutes. If I had a meeting, add another 50 minutes for a taxi to where I have to go for the meeting, I could get to LA, be at my meeting an hour in into it, just as the train is pulling into the station ( That is supposing they meet that 3 hour travel time). You can work on the plane, so being productive is not an issue imho.

4) there is still a lot of face to face bis. going on, but business folks are not a staple rider ship calculated into their plan, in the age of tele commuting etc. getting better and proliferating all the time, 3D printing is 5-7 years away in mass….. ( I mean Tele-commuting IS the greenest right) bus. Travelers will not carry that line financially, period.

5) amtrak had a line from Anaheim to SF to las Vegas backing the 80-‘s 90’s, they pulled the plug on it, no one rode, either way or in between anywhere near the numbers to equal the cost of running the line.

5) god knows what we will have working by 2033...thats 21 years with NO additional delays etc…… Their original estimate has slipped from 2020 to 2033 in just 3 years….so, we know that’s a pipedream too.

We will build it and subsidize it so we can say; “ hey we have hi speed rail, look at us, we lead the way”.

Its not a decision based on economics, like the decision to go to the Euro in Europe, its driven by a social/ moral outlook……..




Of course they could always subsidize via taxs, by not being cowards and raising the gas and airport fees to the point where they double the cost really bending the curve cost for a flyer, making the train more attractive BUT that’s means;

a) the ticket price for train stands still,

b) the California legislature would have to raise the state gasoline tax, and it would be huge,

c) its very regressive because it would hit everyone, not just commuters to LA SF etc. so they won’t do it,

d) that also means general funds will have to subsidize it adding another layer of very expensive, state unionized labor into the mix too.

This is nothing more than a bomb waiting to go off.

 

[Trajan]

These fucking imbeciles. they have saddled us with a money giant suck, that will make the Big Dig look like 2 toddlers in a sandbox, initial segment my ass, once it starts, its on.... they will whine that they cannot stop and 'waste all the money we have spent already', we have seen this shit before.

Just wait, as surely as night follows day...... ridership will be flat, subsidies will follow, then theres the inevitable unionized labor to run this boondoggle, everyone will, IF it is done in 2033....2033 hello, stand around arguing over the money drain, wondering why California has its very own Amtrak charity....

The ballot that we ( not me ) approved 3 years ago had a price tag of $34 Billion , that is now estimated at wait for it..............$98 Billion ( the article below has the wrong cost btw). I'm beside myself.


California OKs funding for high-speed rail line

By JUDY LIN
Associated Press

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- California lawmakers approved billions of dollars Friday in construction financing for the initial segment of the nation's first dedicated high-speed rail line connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco.

The move marked a major political victory for Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown and the Obama administration. Both have promoted bullet trains as job generators and clean transportation alternatives.

more at-
News from The Associated Press

You're so myopic it's all most funny. In San Francisco early in the 20th Century the City leaders build two light rail lines (N Judah & L Taravel) into the Sand Dunes 50 blocks West to the Pacific and 20 blocks North to South (from Golden Gate Part to Lake Merced). With this simple foresight the "Outside Lands" became a viable resource and Henry Dolger and other builders put in nearly 20,000 homes during the boom after WWII.

we just had a housing boom, hows that working out you hack...jesus Christ, its 2012, wakey wakey......

 

[Trajan]

Wasn't this measure approved by the voters four years ago?

no, it was 3 years, and at a price of $34Billion and a completion date of 2020, at a ticket price far enough below airline fares to draw ridership ( they argued) etc etc etc ..thats is all out the window now.

No it wasn't approved by the voters. What the voters approved was a high speed train from Victorville to Las Vegas. This is a high speed train from Bakersfield to San Francisco. If it wasn't passed this month, the state would lose 5 billion from the federal government that was allocated to build the rail line.

The rail line from Victorville to Las Vegas was supposed to cost 68 billion, but now estimates to complete it are upwards of 300 billion. The voters now oppose that line and would vote against it today. That's why the Bakersfield to San Francisco line was never put to a vote.

you're right, my apologies....we got double duped...

 

[Katzndogz]

I can't think of many people in Los Angeles that will go to Bakersfield so they can take the train to San Francisco. Nor can I envision people in San Francisco taking the train to Bakersfield and then doing what to get to Los Angeles? Rent a car? Bus? Amtrak? It's a 4 1/2 to 5 hour drive from Irvine to Las Vegas, taking Amtrak puts it at 9 hours because once you take the train from the Irvine station to Union Station in LA, there is a more than 5 hour wait for the train to Las Vegas.

The initial 130 miles of track for the LA to SF line will go from Bakersfield to Madera. Yeah, like that will pay for itself.

 

[Kiki Cannoli]

Wasn't this measure approved by the voters four years ago?

no, it was 3 years, and at a price of $34Billion and a completion date of 2020, at a ticket price far enough below airline fares to draw ridership ( they argued) etc etc etc ..thats is all out the window now.

No it wasn't approved by the voters. What the voters approved was a high speed train from Victorville to Las Vegas. This is a high speed train from Bakersfield to San Francisco. If it wasn't passed this month, the state would lose 5 billion from the federal government that was allocated to build the rail line.

The rail line from Victorville to Las Vegas was supposed to cost 68 billion, but now estimates to complete it are upwards of 300 billion. The voters now oppose that line and would vote against it today. That's why the Bakersfield to San Francisco line was never put to a vote.

hmmm...

Proposition 1A approved the issuance of $9.95 billion of general obligation bonds. This will partially fund an 800-mile high speed train under the supervision of the California High-Speed Rail Authority. In 2008, when voters approved the measure, the estimate for the total cost of the project was $40 billion. In 2011, the California High-Speed Rail Authority issued a new cost estimate for the entire project, saying that it will cost between $98.5 billion and $118 billion.[2]

The train will run between San Francisco and Los Angeles, with Anaheim, California, designated as the southern terminus of the initial segment of the high-speed train system. Estimates are that the train system would be completed in 2030, and that it would take passengers between San Francisco and Los Angeles in about 2 hours and 40 minutes. The system, when built, is expected to carry more than 120,000 riders per day at speeds of up to 200 mph.[3],[4],[5],[6]

http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/California_Proposition_1A,_High-Speed_Rail_Act_(2008)

 

[Mad Scientist]

So that's what's holding back the California Economy, no rail between L.A. and S.F.? A better Idea would to have put a rail between L.A. and Mexico!



That's ok, when it's done, Dodger fans can go to S.F. and beat up Giants fans on a more regular basis!

 

[Wry Catcher]

So that's what's holding back the California Economy, no rail between L.A. and S.F.? A better Idea would to have put a rail between L.A. and Mexico!



That's ok, when it's done, Dodger fans can go to S.F. and beat up Giants fans on a more regular basis!

So clever, are you channeling Sniper Fire?

 

[Katzndogz]

Vote on high-speed rail called 'big win' for California - latimes.com

It is unclear when construction on the largest infrastructure project in the country can begin. The state still needs a series of regulatory approvals to start the first 130 miles of track in the Central Valley. The plan also faces lawsuits by agriculture interests and potential opposition by major freight railroads.

The bill included $5.9 billion — about $3.2 billion in federal money already committed and $2.6 billion in state bond funds — for the section of track from Madera to Bakersfield.

hmmm indeed.

This is exactly how voters got flim flammed. They wouldn't have voted for a train that went to San Francisco to Bakersfield, or from Victorville to Las Vegas. They were told that the trains will go to Los Angeles. And they might, in 100 years or so.

 

[Wry Catcher]

If Golden Gate Park or the Golden Gate Bridge were being considered today the same 'Conservatives' who oppose high speed rail would have complained, "no one needs a huge park, no one will go there and hell, we have Ferry's who needs a damn bridge". By the way, the conservatives in 1900 complained about those damn horseless carriages, and years before that the conservatives claimed the earth was flat and the center of the universe.

 

[Moonglow]

These fucking imbeciles. they have saddled us with a money giant suck, that will make the Big Dig look like 2 toddlers in a sandbox, initial segment my ass, once it starts, its on.... they will whine that they cannot stop and 'waste all the money we have spent already', we have seen this shit before.

Just wait, as surely as night follows day...... ridership will be flat, subsidies will follow, then theres the inevitable unionized labor to run this boondoggle, everyone will, IF it is done in 2033....2033 hello, stand around arguing over the money drain, wondering why California has its very own Amtrak charity....

The ballot that we ( not me ) approved 3 years ago had a price tag of $34 Billion , that is now estimated at wait for it..............$98 Billion ( the article below has the wrong cost btw). I'm beside myself.


California OKs funding for high-speed rail line

By JUDY LIN
Associated Press

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- California lawmakers approved billions of dollars Friday in construction financing for the initial segment of the nation's first dedicated high-speed rail line connecting Los Angeles and San Francisco.

The move marked a major political victory for Democratic Gov. Jerry Brown and the Obama administration. Both have promoted bullet trains as job generators and clean transportation alternatives.

more at-
News from The Associated Press

How eloquent

 

[Moonglow]

If Golden Gate Park or the Golden Gate Bridge were being considered today the same 'Conservatives' who oppose high speed rail would have complained, "no one needs a huge park, no one will go there and hell, we have Ferry's who needs a damn bridge". By the way, the conservatives in 1900 complained about those damn horseless carriages, and years before that the conservatives claimed the earth was flat and the center of the universe.

Those darn John Birch Society members.

 

[Meister]

If Golden Gate Park or the Golden Gate Bridge were being considered today the same 'Conservatives' who oppose high speed rail would have complained, "no one needs a huge park, no one will go there and hell, we have Ferry's who needs a damn bridge". By the way, the conservatives in 1900 complained about those damn horseless carriages, and years before that the conservatives claimed the earth was flat and the center of the universe.

 

[Meister]

Vote on high-speed rail called 'big win' for California - latimes.com

It is unclear when construction on the largest infrastructure project in the country can begin. The state still needs a series of regulatory approvals to start the first 130 miles of track in the Central Valley. The plan also faces lawsuits by agriculture interests and potential opposition by major freight railroads.

The bill included $5.9 billion — about $3.2 billion in federal money already committed and $2.6 billion in state bond funds — for the section of track from Madera to Bakersfield.

hmmm indeed.

This is exactly how voters got flim flammed. They wouldn't have voted for a train that went to San Francisco to Bakersfield, or from Victorville to Las Vegas. They were told that the trains will go to Los Angeles. And they might, in 100 years or so.

Madera to Bakerfield?
Wow, that section of track will pay for itself in no time at all.
Who will use that ride, and what purpose would those rides be for?
What in hell is in either of those cities that people would even use a rail line?

 

[Katzndogz]

California is broke. Entire cities are going bankrupt. The federal government is broke and supporting itself by printing worthless money.

That's the difference. Industry is moving out of the state not into the state. Taxes are already too high and California is a union state. Industry is moving to right to work states. At least, the very least, in 1900 the government didn't buy cars and sell them at a loss so they could get horseless carriages on the street. That's what this rail line compares to.

 

[Katzndogz]

Vote on high-speed rail called 'big win' for California - latimes.com

It is unclear when construction on the largest infrastructure project in the country can begin. The state still needs a series of regulatory approvals to start the first 130 miles of track in the Central Valley. The plan also faces lawsuits by agriculture interests and potential opposition by major freight railroads.

The bill included $5.9 billion — about $3.2 billion in federal money already committed and $2.6 billion in state bond funds — for the section of track from Madera to Bakersfield.

hmmm indeed.

This is exactly how voters got flim flammed. They wouldn't have voted for a train that went to San Francisco to Bakersfield, or from Victorville to Las Vegas. They were told that the trains will go to Los Angeles. And they might, in 100 years or so.

Madera to Bakerfield?
Wow, that section of track will pay for itself in no time at all.
Who will use that ride, and what purpose would those rides be for?
What in hell is in either of those cities that people would even use a rail line?

Who is going to pay $100.00 a ticket to go 130 miles? The section of track is bult there because property values are low enough to buy up the land to put the track on. No one expects anyone to actually use the train.