Challeng for anti-Evolutionists

[dmp]

...If we could control our own fates using free will...

Look - I really don't appreciate you calling me a ******.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Knowing what you will do doesn't change your choice. If God made the choice for you then it would mean you had no free will, if He allows you to make your own choice regardless of foreknowledge your free will is still pristine.

That's kinda what I've been saying. We technically have free will, but it is only an illusion we live in because of the confines of time, which keep us from being able to see our own futures the way God does.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Look - I really don't appreciate you calling me a ******.

What??? Is that a subtle joke?

 

[dmp]

What??? Is that a subtle joke?

If we could control our own fates using free will = dmp is a ******.

Just as ridiculous as

Fore-knowledge = Pre-determination.

Be fair at least. If YOU get to make up rules of language, I do too.

 

[no1tovote4]

God created time. On this I think we all agree. So God can step back and see time at "a glance." If God made time and can see all time, past, present and future, that means the events that occur within the confines of time, i.e. our actions/choices--our fates, are part of the system God created.


So if what we do in the future has already been established by God, that means we have no actual control over what we do now and how that will affect our futures. If we could control our own fates using free will, we would be able to determine when and how or if we die and every aspect of what happens to us in our lives. But we can't. We are at the mercy of the future God has in store for us.

Once again you determine that simply because He knows the outcome he established your actions. Unless he simply reached in and made you chose what you will your free will is still there regardless of whether He knows what the choice is. We can chose to die if we so will to. We cannot choose to stop death from coming however so even if we choose to live as long as possible at some point in time death will overtake us. That is simply age and other considerations, not a sign that we have no free will. We are at the mercy of this particular body.

If you are a Christian (guessing here), then you know that nobody will die at all, it is impossible to kill an immortal soul. The closest that you will get is denial of a passage to Paradise. If you are atheist, death is simply something that is unavoidable, in some cases you can choose when you will die but it isn't within your power to choose not to die.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

No, you are wrong. According to wordnet.princeton.edu, a verb is "a word that serves as the predicate of a sentence ~or~ a content word that denotes an action or a state. Here's a few more definitions of what a verb is if you feel the need for more grammatical instruction:Define:verb - Google Search
Dictionary.com lists the word "evil" as occupying both the adjective and noun parts of speech as well as the adverb part of speech archaically. It is not a verb. Dictionary.com - Evil One can be evil or do evil, but one cannot evil. How did you pass your highschool exit exam not knowing the parts of speech?:huh:

And I just want to re-emphasize that evil can, in fact, be a "thing." Any word that can be a noun can be a "thing" and, as I have demonstrated, "evil" can be a noun. For reference, see above link to Dictionary.com.

Concepts and ideas are not created?

Ahhhhh, so you are going to base your entire theological posistion based on nuances in DICTIONARY DOT COM?????????? bwhahahahhahaha

Ok, my error in calling it a ver, irrelevant, the relevant part is its not a noun as we are using it.

Can you use the term "evil" in a sentence where it becomes a noun. ?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Ahhhhh, so you are going to base your entire theological posistion based on nuances in DICTIONARY DOT COM?????????? bwhahahahhahaha

Ok, my error in calling it a ver, irrelevant, the relevant part is its not a noun as we are using it.

Can you use the term "evil" in a sentence where it becomes a noun. ?

You just did genius. "bwhahahahhahaha"

 

[deaddude]

...but there exists SCIENTIFIC evidence to support the idea of Intelligent design - I'd suspect the amount of evidence is GREATER than the evidence to support macro-evolution.



Look it up.

If you are going to assert that there is scientiffic evidence to back up your claim, please point it out. By telling me to look it up you are asking me to win your argument for you, it is just lazy debating.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

If you are going to assert that there is scientiffic evidence to back up your claim, please point it out. By telling me to look it up you are asking me to win your argument for you, it is just lazy debating.

 

[dmp]

You just did genius. "bwhahahahhahaha"

Please stop with the racial attacks.

Genuis = ****

 

[Said1]

Please stop with the racial attacks.

Genuis = ****

True. But Canadian=Perfection. Not my fault, look it up.

 

[manu1959]

Ahhhhh, so you are going to base your entire theological posistion based on nuances in DICTIONARY DOT COM?????????? bwhahahahhahaha

Ok, my error in calling it a ver, irrelevant, the relevant part is its not a noun as we are using it.

Can you use the term "evil" in a sentence where it becomes a noun. ?

evil knievel was a great motorcycle jumper

 

[Hagbard Celine]

evil knievel was a great motorcycle jumper

"Evel" in this context is a proper noun. Plus, Evel is spelled differently than "evil."

The noun form of "evil" besides the one used in this sentence would be: "Evil comes in many forms."

 

[LuvRPgrl]

You just did genius. "bwhahahahhahaha"

Nahhh, I didnt. I acknowledged that I mis characterized it as a verb, which is pretty obvious, I wasnt paying attention to that part.

I DID NOT use dict.com to form my entire arguement on it. :2guns:

 

[LuvRPgrl]

evil knievel was a great motorcycle jumper

Evil Knievel jumped over motorcycles?? I thought white men couldnt jump

 

[LuvRPgrl]

"Evel" in this context is a proper noun. Plus, Evel is spelled differently than "evil."

The noun form of "evil" besides the one used in this sentence would be: "Evil comes in many forms."

But in that form, as I stated earlier, it is not a noun that can be touched, felt or seen.

The results of evil can be,

Now, since it cannot be touched, seen felt, how can it be created? Is not something that is created a physical entity?

 

[manu1959]

"Evel" in this context is a proper noun. Plus, Evel is spelled differently than "evil."



The noun form of "evil" besides the one used in this sentence would be: "Evil comes in many forms."

noun is a noun and he spells it evil but now says he prefers evel .... are you single?

 

[Hagbard Celine]

noun is a noun and he spells it evil but now says he prefers evel .... are you single?

Yeah, I'm single.

 

[manu1959]

Yeah, I'm single.

too picky huh?

 

[Zhukov]

Creating the potential for evil and knowing for sure that evil will be born as a result through omnipotence is the same thing as creating evil.

Not even remotely.

If someone already knows how your life will turn out, what you will do with your life, the exact moment of your birth and death, no decision or action you take during your life is free because the result is already pre-determined. We only have the illusion of freewill because unlike God, we cannot see our own fates.

You still haven't even come close to explaining why just because a godlike observer can see all time, that somehow negates free will. How does the fact that god knows what you will do before you do make it any less your decision?

So, keeping that in mind, you contradicted yourself here by saying "God isn't watching as time unfolds" and then saying "god can stand back and see 'all time' in one glance."

That's not a contradiction. You don't understand. Human beings watch as time unfolds, god sees it all at once. Where's the contradiction?

So if God can do that and know how your life will turn out, you would logically be unable to make any decisions freely that God doesn't already know you will make, which would make your fate pre-determined.

Again, which wouldn't make it any less your decision. It's not pre-determined to you, it's pre-determined to God, which itself isn't even an accurate way of saying it. The very term 'pre-determination' relies on a linear time line. God doesn't exist constrained by a linear time line.

God has already pre-determined our destinies

Here you are just jumping around. First your life is pre-determined, now God actively pre-determined our lives? On what basis do you make that leap? Why would you think that od would systematically design an entire life span for every person down to the smallest detail? That completely misses the whole point of god's creation.

But the difference between McDonalds and God is that God is omnipotent. He created time so he knew what would happen before it happened if he created a means for man to fall from grace.

I stand by my metaphor, which you didn't even address, the point of which was creating the potential for people to commit evil is not the same as creating evil. And I can come up with a million more metaphors.

There's a road, the road goes down a steep hill and then takes a sharp turn. At that sharp turn is a metal guard railing on the other side of which is a hundred foot cliff that drops into a deep ravinve. It's the middle of winter. I pour water down the hill and it freezes. Then I pull up the metal guard railing. A car comes down the road and slides over the cliff and everyone in the car dies. Did I create the ravine?

Now, you can go ahead and try other arguments, but the argument that god created evil because he allowed the potential to commit evil doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever.

But we are both good AND evil. Wouldn't it stand to reason that God is as well?

All he designed into us was the capability to be both good and evil. The evil we brought on ourselves. And as I said before, he too technically has the capability to be evil, he just would never exercise it because he is perfectly good.

God doesn't live under those constraints, so he knows all past, present and future decisions you will make and what the outcomes of those decisions will be. Because he knows this, your life is pre-determined. You can't surprise God by making a random decision because he already knows what you will do.

And it doesn't follow that any of that has any effect on your free will. Why does the fact the god knows what you are going to do make it any less your decision? You need to answer that. Just because god knows already doesn't change anything. You can't divorce yourself from the responsibility of your actions just because god already knew you were going to do something.

Knowing this and how it will turn out, the alien decides to build the weapon anyway. That's the same as God creating the tree of knowledge, knowing all the time that the serpent would tempt man and man would disobey.

I don't think that it is. I think god knew all about your life in the instant of creation not before. I don't know how that squares with christian dogma, but it makes sense to me. I mean, if he knew beforehand what was the point? No, he snapped his finger and the whole of human existence throughout time came into being. We just happen to be living in a small sliver of it, aware of only that which came before us.


Now let me tell you what I believe.

I don't believe there is a god, but I do belive because of the structure of the Universe that our futures are observable. Not necessarily by us, but that is irrelevant. I do not believe for one second that that observability restricts my decisions in any way.