Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops, study claims

[suplex3000]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

 

[JGalt]

It's both funny and ironic that this is occurring during under the most anti-gun leadership this country's ever had.

All 50 states now have a concealed carry law. Suck on it, anti-gun bitches, you lost.

 

[Skylar]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

 

[TooTall]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

 

[JGalt]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

You go right ahead and rely on your Iphone to save your life when six or eight aspiring young rappers decide to play soccer with your head. By the time the police show up, there won't be anything for them to do but take statements and pick up what's left of you.

As for myself, I thoroughly intend to leave there in one piece, with bodies strewn all over the pavement.

 

[Skylar]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

You go right ahead and rely on your Iphone to save your life when six or eight aspiring young rappers decide to play soccer with your head. By the time the police show up, there won't be anything for them to do but take statements and pick up what's left of you.

And you're seeing the folly in assuming that coexistence equals causation. There's no evidence that its concealed carry permits that resulted in the reduction in crime. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

John Lott has been pushing this narrative since 1997. It doesn't hold up. Not in 1997. Not today. There's no particular causal link between concealed carry permits and crime. As I said, the reduction in crime exists regardless of the issuance of concealed carry permits. Even where concealed carry permits aren't issued.....crime went down. Something John Lott and his Crime Prevention Research Institute know. But really hope you don't.

You should always be extra careful when quoting advocacy organizations as primary sources. You might as well quote Green Peace on environmentalism as quote the CPRI on gun stats.

 

[Skylar]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

They went down too. Which is exactly the point. Even in cities that didn't issue concealed carry permits.....crime rates dropped comparably. In come cases, faster than the national average. If concealed carry permits were issued....crime went down. If concealed carry permits weren't issued.....crime went down.

Clearly the common denominator wasn't concealed carry permits.

 

[2aguy]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

They went down too. Which is exactly the point. Even in cities that didn't issue concealed carry permits.....crime rates dropped comparably. In come cases, faster than the national average. If concealed carry permits were issued....crime went down. If concealed carry permits weren't issued.....crime went down.

Clearly the common denominator wasn't concealed carry permits.

Ahhhhhh..but you anti gun extremists missed the most important point...........Americans owning and carrying guns for self defense did not increase gun crime............did it? You guys bitched and cried that if law abiding, peaceful people owned guns, and even worse, carried guns in public.....that blood would run in the streets.....

And you were fucking wrong..........

More Americans own guns and more Americans are carrying guns...over 12.8 million now......and the gun murder rate is going down, not up. and the accidental gun death rate is going down, not up..........

and 18 other studies show that concealed carry helps reduce the crime rate.....


So again...you were fucking wrong on all counts....

 

[Skylar]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

They went down too. Which is exactly the point. Even in cities that didn't issue concealed carry permits.....crime rates dropped comparably. In come cases, faster than the national average. If concealed carry permits were issued....crime went down. If concealed carry permits weren't issued.....crime went down.

Clearly the common denominator wasn't concealed carry permits.

Ahhhhhh..but you anti gun extremists missed the most important point...........Americans owning and carrying guns for self defense did not increase gun crime............did it? You guys bitched and cried that if law abiding, peaceful people owned guns, and even worse, carried guns in public.....that blood would run in the streets.....

And how do you define an 'anti-gun extremist', specifically?

Oh, and when have I ever 'bitched and cried' if law abiding, peaceful people owned guns? Can you quote me? Because you seem to be running through a conversation in your head that I'm not a part of.

Do I even need to be here?

And you were fucking wrong..........

More Americans own guns and more Americans are carrying guns...over 12.8 million now......and the gun murder rate is going down, not up. and the accidental gun death rate is going down, not up..........

and 18 other studies show that concealed carry helps reduce the crime rate.....

So again...you were fucking wrong on all counts....

Show me the '18 other studies'. Because this one doesn't show any causative relationship at all. It shows a coexistence. With crime rates dropping regardless of concealed carry permits. When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause'....your cause isn't.

 

[2aguy]

An anti gun extremist believes that law abiding citizens are the problem with gun murder....and focus their efforts in ways that limit or make it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns, while at the same time pretending their measures are meant for criminals...since none of their measures actually effect criminals getting guns.

Here you go....the first 20.....plus the first link will give you 29 studies on concealed carry...18 say it lowers crime rates, 10 say no change and 1 says it increases the crime rate...

The page that lists the study is 2012-2013...in the link.....

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...-Maryland-Law-Review-Lott-Concealed-Carry.pdf




Do Right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime - Crime Prevention Research Center crimeresearch.org


A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by John R. Lott, Jr. and David B. Mustard, Journal of Legal Studies, 1997

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)

Criminal Deterrence, Geographic Spillovers, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns by Stephen Bronars and John R. Lott, Jr., American Economic Review, May 1998

The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths by David Mustard, published in the Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Privately Produced General Deterrence By BRUCE L. BENSON AND BRENT D. MAST, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Does the Right to Carry Concealed Handguns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say By FLORENZ PLASSMANN AND T. NICOLAUS TIDEMAN, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness By CARLISLE E. MOODY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, Suicides, and Crime By JOHN R. LOTT, JR., AND JOHN E. WHITLEY, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Right-to-Carry Concealed Weapon Laws and Homicide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapon Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim-Offender Relationships By DAVID E. OLSON AND MICHAEL D. MALTZ, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

The Impact of Banning Juvenile Gun Possession By Thomas B. Marvell, Journal of Law and Economics, October 2001

Measurement Error in County-Level UCR Data by John R. Lott, Jr. and John Whitley, published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology, June 2003, Volume 19, Issue 2, pp 185-198

Confirming More Guns, Less Crime by Florenz Plassmann and John Whitley, published in the Stanford Law Review, 2003

Using Placebo Laws to Test “More Guns, Less Crime” by Eric Helland and Alexander Tabarrok, published in Advances in Economic Analysis and Policy, 4 (1): Article 1, 2004

Multiple Victim Public Shootings, Bombings, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handgun Laws: Contrasting Private and Public Law Enforcement By John R. Lott, Jr. and William Landes, published in The Bias Against Guns

More Readers of Gun Magazines, But Not More Crimes by Florenz Plassmann and John R. Lott, Jr.

“More Guns, Less Crime” by John R Lott, Jr. (University of Chicago Press, 2010, 3rd edition).

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody, Thomas B. Marvell, Paul R Zimmerman, and Fasil Alemante published in Review of Economics & Finance, 2014

“An examination of the effects of concealed weapons laws and assault weapons bans on state-level murder rates” by Mark Giusa published in Applied Economics Letters, Volume 21, Issue 4, 2014

“The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, volume 5, number 3, September 2008

“The Debate on Shall Issue Laws, Continued” by Carlisle e. Moody and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 6, Number 2 May 2009

“Did John Lott Provide Bad Data to the NRC? A Note on Aneja, Donohue, and Zhang” by Carlisle e. Moody, John R Lott, Jr, and Thomas B. Marvell, published in Econ Journal Watch, Volume 10, Number 1, January 2013

More Guns, Less Crime: A Response to Ayres and Donohue’s 1999 book review in the American Law and Economics Review by John R. Lott, Jr.

Right-to-Carry Laws and Violent Crime Revisited: Clustering, Measurement Error, and State-by-State Break downs by John R. Lott, Jr.

 

[2aguy]

From the first link...

Regarding the eighteen recent studies finding a benefit from right-to-carry laws [see Table 2 above], here are some of the com- ments.

• Florenz Plassmann and Nicolaus Tideman find that “right-to- carry laws do help on average to reduce the number of these crimes.”41

• Carl Moody explains that his findings “confirm and reinforce the basic findings of the original Lott and Mustard study.”42

41. Florenz Plassmann & T. Nicolaus Tideman, Does the Right to Carry Concealed Hand- guns Deter Countable Crimes? Only a Count Analysis Can Say, 44 J.L. & ECON. 771, 796 (2001).

AND ECONOMICS, 2001. 7) Mustard, JOURNAL OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2001. 8) Olsen & Maltz, JOURNAL OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2001. 9) Plassmann & Tideman, JOURNAL OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2001. 10) Marvel, JOURNAL OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2001. 11) Lott & Whitley, JOURNAL OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2001. 12) Lott & Whitley, JOURNAL OF QUANTITATIVE CRIMINOLOGY, 2003. 13) Helland & Tabarrok, ADVANCES IN ECONOMIC ANALYSIS AND POLICY, 2004. 14) Wilson, NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS, 2005. 15) Lott & Whitley, ECONOMIC INQUIRY, 2007. 16) Moody & Marvel, ECON WATCH, 2008. 17) Kendall & Tamura, JOURNAL OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2010. 18) Lott, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, 2010.

OF POLITICAL ECONOMY, 2001. 6) Duwe, Kovandzic & Moody, HOMICIDE STUDIES, 2002. 7) Kovandzic & Mar- vell, CRIMINOLOGY AND PUBLIC POLICY, 2003. 8) Dezhbakhsh & Ru- bin, INT’L REV. OF LAW AND ECONOMICS, 2003. 9) National Research Council, NATIONAL ACADEMIES PRESS, 2005. 10) Kovandzic, Mar- vell & Vieraiis, HOMICIDE STUDIES, 2005.

Non-Refereed Publications by Academics

1) Bronars & Lott, AMERICAN ECONOMIC REVIEW, 1998. 2) Plassmann & Whitley, 55 STAN. L. REV. 1313 (2003). 3) Lott & Landes, THE BIAS AGAINST GUNS, 2003.

1) Ayres & Donohue, AMERICAN LAW AND ECONOMICS REVIEW, 1999 (book review).

1)Ayres & Dono- hue, 55 STAN. L. REV. 1193 (2003). See also Donohue, 2003. 2) Ayres & Do- nohue, ECON WATCH, 2009.2012]

•

•

• •

• •

A BALANCING TEST FOR RIGHT-TO-CARRY LAWS 1215

In another paper that studies county crime rates from 1977 un- til 2000, co-authored by Moody and Thomas Marvell, the au- thors write that “the evidence, such as it is, seems to support the hypothesis that the shall-issue law is generally beneficial with respect to its overall long run effect on crime.”43

Eric Helland and Alex Tabarrok studied county crime rates from 1977 to 2000 to conclude that “shall-issue laws cause a large and significant drop in the murder trend rate” and that “there is considerable support for the hypothesis that shall- issue laws cause criminals to substitute away from crimes against persons and towards crimes against property.”44

David Olsen and Michael Maltz found “a decrease in total ho- micides,” however the different set of data they use shows that the decrease was driven by a drop in gun killings.45 Bruce Benson and Brent Mast found that their results “are vir- tually identical to those in [Lott and Mustard]. Therefore, the hypothesis that the [Lott and Mustard estimates] suffer from missing-variable bias owing to the lack of control for the private security industry is rejected . . . .”46

David Mustard supplies evidence that “[a]fter enactment of the right-to-carry laws, states exhibit a reduced likelihood of having felonious police deaths . . . .”47 The late James Q. Wilson, often described as the preeminent criminologist in the United States, reviewed a report on Fire- arms and Violence published by the National Academy of Sciences and found that while there might be disagreement over some types of violent crime, “I find that the evidence pre- sented by Lott and his supporters suggests that RTC laws do in fact help drive down the murder rate.”48

42. Carlisle E. Moody, Testing for the Effects of Concealed Weapons Laws: Specification Errors and Robustness, 44 J.L. & ECON. 799, 799–813 (2001).

43. Carlisle E. Moody & Thomas B. Marvell, The Debate on Shall-Issue Laws, 5 ECON. J. WATCH 269, 292 (2008).

44. See Helland & Tabarrok, supra note 38.

45. David. E. Olsen & Michael D. Maltz, Right-to Carry Concealed Weapons Laws and Ho- micide in Large U.S. Counties: The Effect on Weapons Types, Victim Characteristics, and Victim- Offender Relationships, 44 J.L. & ECON. 747, 759 (2001).

46. Bruce L. Benson & Brent D. Mast, Privately Produced General Deterrence, 44 J.L. & ECON. 725, 734−35 (2001).

47. David B. Mustard, The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths, 44 J.L. & ECON. 635 (2001).

48. James Q. Wilson, “Dissent,” Appendix A, in FIREARMS AND VIOLENCE: A CRITICAL REVIEW 271 (Charles F. Wellford, John V. Pepper & Carol V. Petrie eds., 2005).

1216 MARYLAND LAW REVIEW [Vol. 71:1205

• My work with John Whitley finds that “the longer a right-to- carry law is in effect, the greater the drop in crime.”49

These researchers have used a variety of approaches: different statistical techniques, different data sets, different control variables, or a variety of specifications. Yet, despite these alternative set ups, the consensus is the same: right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime.50

 

[blunthead]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

Yes, and crime is higher in Chicago where there are more "gun control" laws than anywhere. Of course murder rates drop in populations where people's right to keep and bear arms is not infringed. Try to allow common sense to override your personal, emotional, non-critical thinking biases.

 

[2aguy]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

Yes, and crime is higher in Chicago, where there are more "gun control" laws than anywhere, than anywhere else. Of course murder rates drop in populations where people's right to keep and bear arms is not infringed. Try to allow common sense to override your personal, emotional, non-critical thinking biases.

And in D.C. where they are fighting tooth and nail to keep people from getting concealed carry permits...

While in Detroit, their police chief told law abiding citizens to go and get concealed carry permits and to carry guns for self defense...and their gun murder rate is at a 47 year low....

 

[blunthead]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

Yes, and crime is higher in Chicago, where there are more "gun control" laws than anywhere, than anywhere else. Of course murder rates drop in populations where people's right to keep and bear arms is not infringed. Try to allow common sense to override your personal, emotional, non-critical thinking biases.

And in D.C. where they are fighting tooth and nail to keep people from getting concealed carry permits...

While in Detroit, their police chief told law abiding citizens to go and get concealed carry permits and to carry guns for self defense...and their gun murder rate is at a 47 year low....

It's a no-brainer. The fact that people can't see that gun control only benefits the criminals, who will always find guns, and places all law-abiding people in jeopardy would be hilarious if it weren't so damn scary. If VA tech teachers had been allowed to carry guns does anyone wonder if some lives might've been saved?

 

[Teddy Pollins]

The people who do own guns now own more than ever, but they're a shrinking minority. Fewer people having guns will naturally lead to fewer people using guns.
I am sure that we have to reduce the quantity of gun owners to prevent more murders and shootings.

 

[Skylar]

An anti gun extremist believes that law abiding citizens are the problem with gun murder....and focus their efforts in ways that limit or make it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns, while at the same time pretending their measures are meant for criminals...since none of their measures actually effect criminals getting guns.

And when have I ever done this? Can you quote me arguing that law abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns?

So far the only gun law that I've openly advocated would be background checks. Which even the current head of the NRA said he supported. Until he became head of the NRA. And which the majority of the country and even the majority of gun owners thinks is reasonable.

You keep accusing me of being an anti-gun extremist if I question anything you believe. Yet can't cite me doing anything you describe of an 'anti-gun extremist'. How do you reconcile these contradictions?

Either cite me doing what you claim an anti-gun extremist does. Or withdraw your accusation.

Here you go....the first 20.....plus the first link will give you 29 studies on concealed carry...18 say it lowers crime rates, 10 say no change and 1 says it increases the crime rate...

The page that lists the study is 2012-2013...in the link.....

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...-Maryland-Law-Review-Lott-Concealed-Carry.pdf

Do Right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime - Crime Prevention Research Center crimeresearch.org


A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

And what do these studies show? If you're going to cite them as advocating your point, you'll need to get specific. John Lott's original 1997 study has run into HUGE problems with its methodology. With John's manipulation of data so egregious that his studies prompted the National Academy of Science to establish guidelines for gun violence research.

And since John Lott runs the organization that created the study in question, he's effectively citing himself.

As for the other studies, please be specific. Lets start with this study:

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)


What did Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen find specifically regarding the effect of concealed weapons law? If you're going to cite them as evidence, you'd better know what they found.

And how do you account for dramatic drops in violent crime where concealed carry permits were nearly impossible to get?

 

[TooTall]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

They went down too. Which is exactly the point. Even in cities that didn't issue concealed carry permits.....crime rates dropped comparably. In come cases, faster than the national average. If concealed carry permits were issued....crime went down. If concealed carry permits weren't issued.....crime went down.

Clearly the common denominator wasn't concealed carry permits.

This data directly contradicts you.

"On July 9, 2013, after much litigation and political wrangling, Illinois became the last state in the country to allow carrying firearms in public. Prior to the 2013 legislative session, legislators in both chambers from both parties had presented, but failed to pass, a concealed carry law - resulting in Illinois being the only state that completely banned the practice.

Last winter, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit struck down the Illinois law prohibiting concealed carry as unconstitutional under the Second Amendment. The court gave the legislature 180 days to craft a bill permitting individuals to carry firearms outside the home for self-defense.

The negotiations over concealed carry remained a focal point of the 2013 spring legislative session. Numerous versions of the bill were filed and debated. A law was eventually enacted after the General Assembly passed a bill on the final day of the regular spring session and overrode the Governor's amendatory veto during a special summer session. The Firearm Concealed Carry Act ("the Act") became effective on July 9, 2013, mere hours before the seventh circuit's deadline.'

The New Illinois Concealed Carry Law Illinois State Bar Association

"Chicago closed 2014 with what police said were “historic lows” in crime and murder numbers.

The year saw a drop of 3 percent in murders, marking the lowest murder rate since 1965, when there were 397, according to Chicago Police Superintendent Garry McCarthy."


Chicago Crime Reached Historic Low in 2014 Police NBC Chicago

Another link about Chicago crime


Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge - Washington Times

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

They went down too. Which is exactly the point. Even in cities that didn't issue concealed carry permits.....crime rates dropped comparably. In come cases, faster than the national average. If concealed carry permits were issued....crime went down. If concealed carry permits weren't issued.....crime went down.

Clearly the common denominator wasn't concealed carry permits.

Ahhhhhh..but you anti gun extremists missed the most important point...........Americans owning and carrying guns for self defense did not increase gun crime............did it? You guys bitched and cried that if law abiding, peaceful people owned guns, and even worse, carried guns in public.....that blood would run in the streets.....

And you were fucking wrong..........

More Americans own guns and more Americans are carrying guns...over 12.8 million now......and the gun murder rate is going down, not up. and the accidental gun death rate is going down, not up..........

and 18 other studies show that concealed carry helps reduce the crime rate.....


So again...you were fucking wrong on all counts....

From the linked article:

“…a direct cause and effect cannot be proven…”

Consequently you’re wrong again, as usual.

 

[TooTall]

Concealed-carry handgun permits soar as murder rate drops study claims Fox News
Well seeing as how cops use their guns far more than civilians do and there are no definitely numbers for defensive gun use(a range of 100K to 2.5 million isn't a range at all, its just bull) there is no reason to think that cops using their guns wouldn't dominate those numbers.

That is some weak tea. As it equates coexsitence with causation. Iphone ownership is up by similar numbers in the same time period. By the logic of the 'Crime Prevention Center', that means that Iphones reduce crime.

Its a nonsense argument. Like blaming El-Nino on NBC's Friends. After all, they happened at the same time.

In reality the study was done by the Crime Prevention Research Center, a pro-gun advocacy group run by John Lott. A Fox News contributor and (shocker) pro-gun advocate. The obvious problem with the argument is that crime reduction has occured regardless of concealed carry permits. Crime reduced in cities where they weren't issued. Crime reduced in cities where they were. There is no particular relationship.

When your 'effect' exists regardless of the existence of your 'cause', your 'cause' isn't.

I haven't seen the crime stats for Chicago and New York City, but I believe they make it almost impossible to get a concealed carry permit.

Yes, and crime is higher in Chicago where there are more "gun control" laws than anywhere. Of course murder rates drop in populations where people's right to keep and bear arms is not infringed. Try to allow common sense to override your personal, emotional, non-critical thinking biases.

I looked it up and Chicago did enact a concealed carry law and last year and crime has gone down. I posted the links earlier.

 

[2aguy]

An anti gun extremist believes that law abiding citizens are the problem with gun murder....and focus their efforts in ways that limit or make it harder for law abiding citizens to own guns, while at the same time pretending their measures are meant for criminals...since none of their measures actually effect criminals getting guns.

And when have I ever done this? Can you quote me arguing that law abiding citizens shouldn't be allowed to have guns?

So far the only gun law that I've openly advocated would be background checks. Which even the current head of the NRA said he supported. Until he became head of the NRA. And which the majority of the country and even the majority of gun owners thinks is reasonable.

You keep accusing me of being an anti-gun extremist if I question anything you believe. Yet can't cite me doing anything you describe of an 'anti-gun extremist'. How do you reconcile these contradictions?

Either cite me doing what you claim an anti-gun extremist does. Or withdraw your accusation.

Here you go....the first 20.....plus the first link will give you 29 studies on concealed carry...18 say it lowers crime rates, 10 say no change and 1 says it increases the crime rate...

The page that lists the study is 2012-2013...in the link.....

http://crimepreventionresearchcente...-Maryland-Law-Review-Lott-Concealed-Carry.pdf

Do Right-to-carry laws reduce violent crime - Crime Prevention Research Center crimeresearch.org


A 2012 survey of the literature is available here. Some of the research showing that concealed carry laws reduce violent crime is listed here.

And what do these studies show? If you're going to cite them as advocating your point, you'll need to get specific. John Lott's original 1997 study has run into HUGE problems with its methodology. With John's manipulation of data so egregious that his studies prompted the National Academy of Science to establish guidelines for gun violence research.

And since John Lott runs the organization that created the study in question, he's effectively citing himself.

As for the other studies, please be specific. Lets start with this study:

The Effect of Concealed Weapons Laws: An Extreme Bound Analysis by William Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen, published in Economic Inquiry, April 1998 (Copy available here)


What did Alan Bartley and Mark A Cohen find specifically regarding the effect of concealed weapons law? If you're going to cite them as evidence, you'd better know what they found.

And how do you account for dramatic drops in violent crime where concealed carry permits were nearly impossible to get?

I gave you the studies, you read them. and Lott has been attacked by anti gunners for years and his methods have stood up to repeated attempts to criticize them...