Creationists

[newpolitics]

UR, you never answered my question about DNA.

You claim that DNA is digital, yet the DNA code is quaternary, and digital code is binary. How are you therefore able to call DNA "digital"?

I did answer your question. You missed it. And your post shows a lack of understanding of what digital is. Do you know what analog is? Do you know the difference between music stored on an LP record and music stored on a CD? Your fallacy comes from your belief that Binary code is the only type of digital code. It isn't.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/190358-creationists-640.html#post6256797

Just google it for goodness sake!!! You will be hard pressed to find one your atheist websites to dispute the fact dna is digital code.

"The discovery of the structure of DNA transformed biology profoundly, catalysing the sequencing of the human genome and engendering a new view of biology as an information science. Two features of DNA structure account for much of its remarkable impact on science: its digital nature and its complementarity, whereby one strand of the helix binds perfectly with its partner. DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01410.html

"When it comes to storing information, hard drives don't hold a candle to DNA. Our genetic code packs billions of gigabytes into a single gram. A mere milligram of the molecule could encode the complete text of every book in the Library of Congress and have plenty of room to spare. All of this has been mostly theoretical—until now. In a new study, researchers stored an entire genetics textbook in less than a picogram of DNA—one trillionth of a gram—an advance that could revolutionize our ability to save data."

DNA: The Ultimate Hard Drive - ScienceNOW

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

A: adenosine
C: cytosine
G: guanine
T: thymine

These 4 substances are the fundamental "bits" of information in the genetic code, and are called "base pairs" because there is actually 2 substances per "bit", as discussed later. Everything else is built on top of this basis of 4 DNA digits."

Introduction to Genes and DNA - RightDiagnosis.com

The longest term correlations in living systems are the information stored in DNA which reflects the evolutionary history of an organism. The 4 bases (A,T,G,C) encode sequences of amino acids as well as locations of binding sites for proteins that regulate DNA. The fidelity of this important information is maintained by ANALOG error check mechanisms. When a single strand of DNA is replicated the complementary base is inserted in the new strand. Sometimes the wrong base is inserted that sticks out disrupting the phosphate backbone. The new base is not yet methylated, so repair enzymes, that slide along the DNA, can tear out the wrong base and replace it with the right one. The bases in DNA form a sequence of 4 different symbols and so the information is encoded in a DIGITAL form. All the digital codes in our society (ISBN book numbers, UPC product codes, bank account numbers, airline ticket numbers) use error checking code, where some digits are functions of other digits to maintain the fidelity of transmitted information. Does DNA also utilize a DIGITAL error checking code to maintain the fidelity of its information and increase the accuracy of replication? That is, are some bases in DNA functions of other bases upstream or downstream? This raises the interesting mathematical problem: How does one determine whether some symbols in a sequence of symbols are a function of other symbols. It also bears on the issue of determining algorithmic complexity: What is the function that generates the shortest algorithm for reproducing the symbol sequence. The error checking codes most used in our technology are linear block codes. We developed an efficient method to test for the presence of such codes in DNA. We coded the 4 bases as (0,1,2,3) and used Gaussian elimination, modified for modulus 4, to test if some bases are linear combinations of other bases. We used this method to analyze the base sequence in the genes from the lac operon and cytochrome C. We did not find evidence for such error correcting codes in these genes. However, we analyzed only a small amount of DNA and if digital error correcting schemes are present in DNA, they may be more subtle than such simple linear block codes. The basic issue we raise here, is how information is stored in DNA and an appreciation that digital symbol sequences, such as DNA, admit of interesting schemes to store and protect the fidelity of their information content. Liebovitch, Tao, Todorov, Levine. 1996. Biophys. J. 71:1539-1544. Supported by NIH grant EY6234.

What Information is Stored in DNA: Does it Contain Digital Error Correcting Code

I stand corrected on the meaning of digital, although this is somewhat unimportant, because to say something is digital is not terribly descriptive. All it means is the information comes in discrete, non-continuous bites, as opposed to analog information which comes in a continuous form, like sound. Smoke signals from a campfire used to communicate something is also digital information. So, describing DNA as digital isn't very helpful. In fact, I couldn't imagine it any other way. If the information was analog, that would be far more amazing, and greater "evidence" of an intelligence. I can't even imagine how that would work. The fact that DNA is digital is not, by itself, amazing or good. Therefore, comparing to our own digital codes and simply concluding that there must be an intelligence is even more meaningless. Of course, you add on the descriptors "specifiable and complex." Whoopee. First of all, complexity is not a sign of intelligence. Simplicity usually is, when we are talking about making something actually work. And, how else would DNA work were it not specifiable??? You would expect these attributes of DNA to exist. If they weren't specifiable or Complex, then that would be truly amazing, and would be greater evidence for an intelligence, because that would beg the question: how is this possible??

 

[UltimateReality]

UR, you never answered my question about DNA.

You claim that DNA is digital, yet the DNA code is quaternary, and digital code is binary. How are you therefore able to call DNA "digital"?

I did answer your question. You missed it. And your post shows a lack of understanding of what digital is. Do you know what analog is? Do you know the difference between music stored on an LP record and music stored on a CD? Your fallacy comes from your belief that Binary code is the only type of digital code. It isn't.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/190358-creationists-640.html#post6256797

Just google it for goodness sake!!! You will be hard pressed to find one your atheist websites to dispute the fact dna is digital code.

"The discovery of the structure of DNA transformed biology profoundly, catalysing the sequencing of the human genome and engendering a new view of biology as an information science. Two features of DNA structure account for much of its remarkable impact on science: its digital nature and its complementarity, whereby one strand of the helix binds perfectly with its partner. DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01410.html

"When it comes to storing information, hard drives don't hold a candle to DNA. Our genetic code packs billions of gigabytes into a single gram. A mere milligram of the molecule could encode the complete text of every book in the Library of Congress and have plenty of room to spare. All of this has been mostly theoretical—until now. In a new study, researchers stored an entire genetics textbook in less than a picogram of DNA—one trillionth of a gram—an advance that could revolutionize our ability to save data."

DNA: The Ultimate Hard Drive - ScienceNOW

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

A: adenosine
C: cytosine
G: guanine
T: thymine

These 4 substances are the fundamental "bits" of information in the genetic code, and are called "base pairs" because there is actually 2 substances per "bit", as discussed later. Everything else is built on top of this basis of 4 DNA digits."

Introduction to Genes and DNA - RightDiagnosis.com

The longest term correlations in living systems are the information stored in DNA which reflects the evolutionary history of an organism. The 4 bases (A,T,G,C) encode sequences of amino acids as well as locations of binding sites for proteins that regulate DNA. The fidelity of this important information is maintained by ANALOG error check mechanisms. When a single strand of DNA is replicated the complementary base is inserted in the new strand. Sometimes the wrong base is inserted that sticks out disrupting the phosphate backbone. The new base is not yet methylated, so repair enzymes, that slide along the DNA, can tear out the wrong base and replace it with the right one. The bases in DNA form a sequence of 4 different symbols and so the information is encoded in a DIGITAL form. All the digital codes in our society (ISBN book numbers, UPC product codes, bank account numbers, airline ticket numbers) use error checking code, where some digits are functions of other digits to maintain the fidelity of transmitted information. Does DNA also utilize a DIGITAL error checking code to maintain the fidelity of its information and increase the accuracy of replication? That is, are some bases in DNA functions of other bases upstream or downstream? This raises the interesting mathematical problem: How does one determine whether some symbols in a sequence of symbols are a function of other symbols. It also bears on the issue of determining algorithmic complexity: What is the function that generates the shortest algorithm for reproducing the symbol sequence. The error checking codes most used in our technology are linear block codes. We developed an efficient method to test for the presence of such codes in DNA. We coded the 4 bases as (0,1,2,3) and used Gaussian elimination, modified for modulus 4, to test if some bases are linear combinations of other bases. We used this method to analyze the base sequence in the genes from the lac operon and cytochrome C. We did not find evidence for such error correcting codes in these genes. However, we analyzed only a small amount of DNA and if digital error correcting schemes are present in DNA, they may be more subtle than such simple linear block codes. The basic issue we raise here, is how information is stored in DNA and an appreciation that digital symbol sequences, such as DNA, admit of interesting schemes to store and protect the fidelity of their information content. Liebovitch, Tao, Todorov, Levine. 1996. Biophys. J. 71:1539-1544. Supported by NIH grant EY6234.

What Information is Stored in DNA: Does it Contain Digital Error Correcting Code

Did you realize that cutting and pasting from a non-christian creationist website actually contradicts your earlier statements?

You fundies should stay away from that vile science stuff.

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

So... apparently DNA is not the "digital machine" that fundies love to describe it as, so as to make goofy allegations such as "DNA is a digital machine. Since all machines require a designer, DNA is therfore the product of a designer.... and not just any designer, but a particular, identifiable designer alluded to in a book I read: the Bible. Since the Bible is true... kinda, sorta, and since I was told as a child that the Bible is true, the Bible is therefore true. And you read all this on the internet, it is absolutely true.

I guess I really don't understand your point. That is, unless you are mistakenly assuming that binary code is the only digital code like NP is assuming. Or you are building a strawman that there was ever a claim that DNA is binary? Please clarify your nonsense.

 

[UltimateReality]

UR, you never answered my question about DNA.

You claim that DNA is digital, yet the DNA code is quaternary, and digital code is binary. How are you therefore able to call DNA "digital"?

I did answer your question. You missed it. And your post shows a lack of understanding of what digital is. Do you know what analog is? Do you know the difference between music stored on an LP record and music stored on a CD? Your fallacy comes from your belief that Binary code is the only type of digital code. It isn't.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/190358-creationists-640.html#post6256797

Just google it for goodness sake!!! You will be hard pressed to find one your atheist websites to dispute the fact dna is digital code.

"The discovery of the structure of DNA transformed biology profoundly, catalysing the sequencing of the human genome and engendering a new view of biology as an information science. Two features of DNA structure account for much of its remarkable impact on science: its digital nature and its complementarity, whereby one strand of the helix binds perfectly with its partner. DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01410.html

"When it comes to storing information, hard drives don't hold a candle to DNA. Our genetic code packs billions of gigabytes into a single gram. A mere milligram of the molecule could encode the complete text of every book in the Library of Congress and have plenty of room to spare. All of this has been mostly theoretical—until now. In a new study, researchers stored an entire genetics textbook in less than a picogram of DNA—one trillionth of a gram—an advance that could revolutionize our ability to save data."

DNA: The Ultimate Hard Drive - ScienceNOW

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

A: adenosine
C: cytosine
G: guanine
T: thymine

These 4 substances are the fundamental "bits" of information in the genetic code, and are called "base pairs" because there is actually 2 substances per "bit", as discussed later. Everything else is built on top of this basis of 4 DNA digits."

Introduction to Genes and DNA - RightDiagnosis.com

The longest term correlations in living systems are the information stored in DNA which reflects the evolutionary history of an organism. The 4 bases (A,T,G,C) encode sequences of amino acids as well as locations of binding sites for proteins that regulate DNA. The fidelity of this important information is maintained by ANALOG error check mechanisms. When a single strand of DNA is replicated the complementary base is inserted in the new strand. Sometimes the wrong base is inserted that sticks out disrupting the phosphate backbone. The new base is not yet methylated, so repair enzymes, that slide along the DNA, can tear out the wrong base and replace it with the right one. The bases in DNA form a sequence of 4 different symbols and so the information is encoded in a DIGITAL form. All the digital codes in our society (ISBN book numbers, UPC product codes, bank account numbers, airline ticket numbers) use error checking code, where some digits are functions of other digits to maintain the fidelity of transmitted information. Does DNA also utilize a DIGITAL error checking code to maintain the fidelity of its information and increase the accuracy of replication? That is, are some bases in DNA functions of other bases upstream or downstream? This raises the interesting mathematical problem: How does one determine whether some symbols in a sequence of symbols are a function of other symbols. It also bears on the issue of determining algorithmic complexity: What is the function that generates the shortest algorithm for reproducing the symbol sequence. The error checking codes most used in our technology are linear block codes. We developed an efficient method to test for the presence of such codes in DNA. We coded the 4 bases as (0,1,2,3) and used Gaussian elimination, modified for modulus 4, to test if some bases are linear combinations of other bases. We used this method to analyze the base sequence in the genes from the lac operon and cytochrome C. We did not find evidence for such error correcting codes in these genes. However, we analyzed only a small amount of DNA and if digital error correcting schemes are present in DNA, they may be more subtle than such simple linear block codes. The basic issue we raise here, is how information is stored in DNA and an appreciation that digital symbol sequences, such as DNA, admit of interesting schemes to store and protect the fidelity of their information content. Liebovitch, Tao, Todorov, Levine. 1996. Biophys. J. 71:1539-1544. Supported by NIH grant EY6234.

What Information is Stored in DNA: Does it Contain Digital Error Correcting Code

I stand corrected on the meaning of digital, although this is somewhat unimportant, because to say something is digital is not terribly descriptive. All it means is the information comes in discrete, non-continuous bites, as opposed to analog information which comes in a continuous form, like sound. Smoke signals from a campfire used to communicate something is also digital information. So, describing DNA as digital isn't very helpful. In fact, I couldn't imagine it any other way. If the information was analog, that would be far more amazing, and greater "evidence" of an intelligence. I can't even imagine how that would work. The fact that DNA is digital is not, by itself, amazing or good. Therefore, comparing to our own digital codes and simply concluding that there must be an intelligence is even more meaningless. Of course, you add on the descriptors "specifiable and complex." Whoopee. First of all, complexity is not a sign of intelligence.

If you add functionality and specificity, then it is a sign of intelligence. I have asked you before but you remain silent on producing a functional, specifiable information in digital form that doesn't have an intelligent agent as its source.

Simplicity usually is, when we are talking about making something actually work. And, how else would DNA work were it not specifiable???

It wouldn't. That is the enigma.

You would expect these attributes of DNA to exist. If they weren't specifiable or Complex, then that would be truly amazing, and would be greater evidence for an intelligence, because that would beg the question: how is this possible??

Then you should look around and find lots of amazing random things. Check this: "44"-Simply amazing!!! This last bolded comment makes on sense at all. If you know about Shannon information, then you know the number 3428594837498538375493930385674639340 is more complex than 46. It really isn't a feat to generate a random, complex number that doesn't do anything. However, when we add function and specificity, we find that this type of information does not occur randomly. This number, for example, is complex and specific, because if you enter it into a phone, it performs a specific function: 8085636553.

 

[Hollie]

I did answer your question. You missed it. And your post shows a lack of understanding of what digital is. Do you know what analog is? Do you know the difference between music stored on an LP record and music stored on a CD? Your fallacy comes from your belief that Binary code is the only type of digital code. It isn't.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/190358-creationists-640.html#post6256797

Just google it for goodness sake!!! You will be hard pressed to find one your atheist websites to dispute the fact dna is digital code.

"The discovery of the structure of DNA transformed biology profoundly, catalysing the sequencing of the human genome and engendering a new view of biology as an information science. Two features of DNA structure account for much of its remarkable impact on science: its digital nature and its complementarity, whereby one strand of the helix binds perfectly with its partner. DNA has two types of digital information — the genes that encode proteins, which are the molecular machines of life, and the gene regulatory networks that specify the behaviour of the genes."

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6921/full/nature01410.html

"When it comes to storing information, hard drives don't hold a candle to DNA. Our genetic code packs billions of gigabytes into a single gram. A mere milligram of the molecule could encode the complete text of every book in the Library of Congress and have plenty of room to spare. All of this has been mostly theoretical—until now. In a new study, researchers stored an entire genetics textbook in less than a picogram of DNA—one trillionth of a gram—an advance that could revolutionize our ability to save data."

DNA: The Ultimate Hard Drive - ScienceNOW

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

A: adenosine
C: cytosine
G: guanine
T: thymine

These 4 substances are the fundamental "bits" of information in the genetic code, and are called "base pairs" because there is actually 2 substances per "bit", as discussed later. Everything else is built on top of this basis of 4 DNA digits."

Introduction to Genes and DNA - RightDiagnosis.com

The longest term correlations in living systems are the information stored in DNA which reflects the evolutionary history of an organism. The 4 bases (A,T,G,C) encode sequences of amino acids as well as locations of binding sites for proteins that regulate DNA. The fidelity of this important information is maintained by ANALOG error check mechanisms. When a single strand of DNA is replicated the complementary base is inserted in the new strand. Sometimes the wrong base is inserted that sticks out disrupting the phosphate backbone. The new base is not yet methylated, so repair enzymes, that slide along the DNA, can tear out the wrong base and replace it with the right one. The bases in DNA form a sequence of 4 different symbols and so the information is encoded in a DIGITAL form. All the digital codes in our society (ISBN book numbers, UPC product codes, bank account numbers, airline ticket numbers) use error checking code, where some digits are functions of other digits to maintain the fidelity of transmitted information. Does DNA also utilize a DIGITAL error checking code to maintain the fidelity of its information and increase the accuracy of replication? That is, are some bases in DNA functions of other bases upstream or downstream? This raises the interesting mathematical problem: How does one determine whether some symbols in a sequence of symbols are a function of other symbols. It also bears on the issue of determining algorithmic complexity: What is the function that generates the shortest algorithm for reproducing the symbol sequence. The error checking codes most used in our technology are linear block codes. We developed an efficient method to test for the presence of such codes in DNA. We coded the 4 bases as (0,1,2,3) and used Gaussian elimination, modified for modulus 4, to test if some bases are linear combinations of other bases. We used this method to analyze the base sequence in the genes from the lac operon and cytochrome C. We did not find evidence for such error correcting codes in these genes. However, we analyzed only a small amount of DNA and if digital error correcting schemes are present in DNA, they may be more subtle than such simple linear block codes. The basic issue we raise here, is how information is stored in DNA and an appreciation that digital symbol sequences, such as DNA, admit of interesting schemes to store and protect the fidelity of their information content. Liebovitch, Tao, Todorov, Levine. 1996. Biophys. J. 71:1539-1544. Supported by NIH grant EY6234.

What Information is Stored in DNA: Does it Contain Digital Error Correcting Code

Did you realize that cutting and pasting from a non-christian creationist website actually contradicts your earlier statements?

You fundies should stay away from that vile science stuff.

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

So... apparently DNA is not the "digital machine" that fundies love to describe it as, so as to make goofy allegations such as "DNA is a digital machine. Since all machines require a designer, DNA is therfore the product of a designer.... and not just any designer, but a particular, identifiable designer alluded to in a book I read: the Bible. Since the Bible is true... kinda, sorta, and since I was told as a child that the Bible is true, the Bible is therefore true. And you read all this on the internet, it is absolutely true.

I guess I really don't understand your point. That is, unless you are mistakenly assuming that binary code is the only digital code like NP is assuming. Or you are building a strawman that there was ever a claim that DNA is binary? Please clarify your nonsense.

You're having difficulty defining your own argument. Your desperate efforts to bludgeon others with the circular reference about your gawds, "digital code" and an imagined designer are no less vague, discontinuous and contrived now than they were before.

Ironically, the very science you despise has actually expanded our knowledge about another of the intricate building blocks of life. Through ingenuity and the formidable power of science, what was once only a hypothesis is now understandable. The mumbo jumbo of "the gawds did it" falls further and further into the dustbin of fear and superstition.

 

[Hollie]

There are many articles to be found that dispel the Christian creationist claim that follows in the pattern of Stephen Meyers and his groupies.


DNA : When Is A Code Not A Code ?

DNA : When Is A Code Not A Code ?

Stephen C. Meyer is an intelligent design advocate and a co-founder of the Discovery Institute.

The core argument of Stephen Meyer’s book, Signature in a Cell, written in advocacy of intelligent design, is this: DNA is a code and a computer instruction is a code. Since computer code requires an intelligent designer, and DNA is a code, it follows that DNA is a product of, or is controlled by, an intelligent designer.

This argument has no foundation if one does not accept its basic premises: that DNA is a code that a computer instruction is a code, and that the term 'code' is applicable in exactly the same way to both uses.

"Men take the words they find in use amongst their neighbours; and that they may not seem ignorant what they stand for, use them confidently, without much troubling their heads about a certain fixedmeaning; whereby, besides the ease of it, they obtain this advantage, That, as in such discourses they seldom are in the right, so they are as seldom to be convinced that theyare in the wrong;"

John Locke. An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Book III, Chapter X. Browse By Author: L - Project Gutenberg


Before leaping to any conclusions based on our use of the word 'code', we must, if we are to be scientific, first define 'code'.

A code is a member of the class 'symbols'. A first level symbol is a label which is used in place of the thing which it identifies. For example, suppose a building with a sign over the window which bears the word 'pharmacy'. We can use the symbol 'pharmacy' in language as a symbolic substitute for any real pharmacy. Suppose now that we invent a slang term 'pill-farm' to mean 'pharmacy'. We now have a secondary label 'pill-farm' which is a second-level symbol for 'pharmacy'. 'Pharmacy' in its turn is a first level symbol for a real building of a specific type.

By convention, a primary symbol is a name, but any secondary symbol is a code: a symbol which stands in place of another symbol. For purposes of clarification, I will give another example. 'And so forth' is a primary label or symbol for an idea. By converting it into Latin, a language spoken by few speakers of English, we encode it as 'et cetera'. We now abbreviate it to 'etc.', a second level coding.

A code is not a symbol. A symbol is not a code. A symbol stands in place of an object or idea. A code stands in place of a symbol: it is a symbol for a symbol.

In computer instructions, we start with the simplest possible representations of what is going on inside a computer chip. We observe that a location in a computer chip can be at one of two voltages. Taking these voltages as our idea we invent symbols for the two voltages: '1' and '0'. These are our primary symbols and they can only be written as binary expressions.

As a convenience, we can use a form of abbreviation which is easier for humans to handle than binary. The most common such abbreviation is hexadecimal code, or hex. As an example, the binary 1010 0101 can be written as A5 in hex. Note that hex, being a secondary symbol level is a code.

When dealing with binary as computer instructions rather than as numbers it is convenient to use mnemonic codes. It may be that the binary string 1111 0000 1100 0100, or F0C4 in hex, is an instruction to the computer core, expressed as F0, to jump to memory location C4, but only IF a previously computed result was non-zero. We can write that as a mnemonic code: JNZ C4.

Such mnemonics are called assembly language. The 'assembly' part of the name comes from the fact that this mnemonic code needs to be assembled into a package of binary numbers in order for the computer to be able to use it as a program.

DNA is a string of molecules. There are four main components: guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine. Those names, the words 'guanine', 'adenine', 'thymine' and 'cytosine' are primary symbols invented by humans to identify the physical molecules which are found in DNA.

For convenience, we often abbreviate these symbols to CAGT, so that we can more readily handle the huge volume of data which we have accumulated about DNA. Please observe: there exists a long molecule of a type which we label DNA. It has four major components to which we assign symbols as names. We next assign symbols to the name symbols as an abbreviating code. We humans have agreed to assign the four letters CAGT as a code for the symbols which in turn stand for the molecular components of DNA.

A code is a symbol which stands in place of a symbol. The four letters CAGT most definitely form a code, being symbols for the names of the four major components of DNA. The names guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine are not codes: they are primary symbols. Primary symbols stand for real things and not for symbols. The real physical entities guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine are not codes. If anyone wants to call them codes, let them point to the symbols which might be replaced by these 'codes'.

A computer code is a set of numerical values sufficient and necessary to the production of an end state from an initial state.

DNA is necessary but not sufficient to the production of an end statefrom an initial state.

To claim that computer code and DNA are both codes is an abuse of the power of words. It is decidedly not scientific.

Concluding remarks:

Anyone who already believes in intelligent design will derive no new knowledge from Stephen Meyer's book. Anyone who believes in a rigorous approach to science will derive no new knowledge from Stephen Meyer's book.

I conclude that no value is to be obtained from Stephen Meyer's book by any thinking person.

 

[daws101]

FYI:

Conservative Christian Superhero Pat Robertson doesn't believe in Young Earth Creationism.

Christianity is a philosophy not a religion and I am not of the same religion as robertson.

lie! Christianity is a religion and a philosophy.
if you believe in THE CHRISTIAN GOD, JESUS ETC... you are the same religion as pat Robertson or Jim Jones and David koresh..
any difference you profess is cosmetic and false.

 

[daws101]

I can't say for sure but it looks like he (God) has used several different methods to assure we can live but pay the ultimate price for sin and that is death. Mutating genes is not a good thing nor are viruses.

The simple thing is a couple on your side fail to reason out that eventually all viruses mutate to a point that our immune system can fight them off if not for that we would have been wiped out and many other organisms that have been invaded by viruses.

How utterly twisted. No wonder your behavior is so bizarre. You live your life in trembling fear of the most evil villain ever to be shaped by the mind of man. You're suggesting that the gawds "poofed" viruses into existence as yet another punishment to be inflicted on humanity?

So, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, fire, bacterial infections, etc. weren't enough so the gawds chose yet another humanity wiping catastrophe?

I don't live in fear hollie why would you say I live in fear ?

because it's obvious !

 

[daws101]

I am not speaking of God Daws I am speaking of your theory,science daws.

bullshit and backpedaling no matter how you try to spin it, you are always yammering about god
your whole pov is based on the unprovable belief in god .

We are discussing science why do you want to leave this subject ?

no you're not stop dodging

 

[daws101]

What do you think a molecular biologist is

a person who studies the structure of of cells observers their actions and their relationship to the whole of biology.
also do experiments and make judgments on the outcome of those experiments.
the only one of these you did was observe and report your obsevations.
my statements stand.

What do most molecular biologist possess to work in this field I posted it for you ?

you mean these thing you lack?: Common Requirements
Degree Level Ph.D.*
Degree Field Molecular biology or a related field*
Key Skills Analytical skills, communication skills, problem solving skills, critical thinking skills*
Technical Skills Operation of cloning vectors, temperature cycling chambers, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectrometers, volumetric pipettes**
Computer Skills Use of analytical and scientific software, graphical imaging software**

Sources: *U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, **O Net OnLine.

Step 1 - Earn a Bachelor's Degree
A molecular biologist can earn an undergraduate degree in molecular biology. In some cases, the degree may be in cell and molecular biology or exist as a concentration within a biology program. Students take science courses that include biology, chemistry, physics and genetics. Students also take lab courses, learning about proper use of equipment and experimental procedure.

Success Tip:
•Participate in research opportunities. Undergraduates can find research opportunities either through a program designated for undergraduates or by making a special request to faculty. Research at the undergraduate level can help students improve critical thinking skills and build professional skills as well as learn to implement and perform credible research.
Step 2 - Earn a Graduate Degree
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, most molecular biologists require a Ph.D. Some molecular biologists may choose to earn a master's degree prior to pursuing a Ph.D. program, but many doctoral programs accept students without a master's degree. The Ph.D. program generally lasts 4-6 years and includes advanced coursework and required research. Ph.D. candidates will likely have to pass a qualifying exam, during which they are assessed on their knowledge of molecular biology. They also have to introduce a research thesis. Ph.D. candidates have to write a dissertation based on their ongoing research and defend their theses to graduate from the program. Ph.D. programs may also include a teaching requirement.

Success Tip:
•Publish research in a peer-reviewed journal. Research that has been peer-reviewed by other scientists serves as a proof that the research method and results are credible. Graduate students can have research results published as a co-author or as a lead author on a research study.

 

[daws101]

Both Hollie and daws has disappeared why oh why ?

that's "have". asshat

 

[daws101]

I don't live in fear hollie why would you say I live in fear ?

Of course you live in fear. You even use that fear in hopes of installing fear in others.

The bible tells us that every time we are attacked for our love of God we reap a blessing.

I'll stand by for more slavering, incoherent hatred from the anti-Christian bigot. I like blessings.

look toto it's the witch!

 

[daws101]

Here it is hollie, unless you don't understand what you wrote. The host is no longer in control of its chemical machines,the machines are used by the virus to reproduce itself so who would be stimulating the mutation ?

So tell us, "who" do you think would be stimulating the mutation. Does this "who" have name?

Wait, let me guess. Are you talking about your rugged man hands stimulating the mutant known as Daws?

another false and childish gay slur! and so very desperate.
why don't you just come out Ur?
your obsession with homosexuality just screams suppressed desire !

 

[Youwerecreated]

FYI:

Conservative Christian Superhero Pat Robertson doesn't believe in Young Earth Creationism.

Christianity is a philosophy not a religion and I am not of the same religion as robertson.

lie! Christianity is a religion and a philosophy.
if you believe in THE CHRISTIAN GOD, JESUS ETC... you are the same religion as pat Robertson or Jim Jones and David koresh..
any difference you profess is cosmetic and false.

Nope, you are wrong 241,000 religions makes Christanity a philosophy. Every religion has their own set of doctrines and everyone of them claim to have the truth.

 

[Youwerecreated]

How utterly twisted. No wonder your behavior is so bizarre. You live your life in trembling fear of the most evil villain ever to be shaped by the mind of man. You're suggesting that the gawds "poofed" viruses into existence as yet another punishment to be inflicted on humanity?

So, floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, fire, bacterial infections, etc. weren't enough so the gawds chose yet another humanity wiping catastrophe?

I don't live in fear hollie why would you say I live in fear ?

because it's obvious !

I have a pretty good life I have nothing to fear.

 

[Youwerecreated]

bullshit and backpedaling no matter how you try to spin it, you are always yammering about god
your whole pov is based on the unprovable belief in god .

We are discussing science why do you want to leave this subject ?

no you're not stop dodging

Open systems and closed systems plus viruses are not science Daws ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

a person who studies the structure of of cells observers their actions and their relationship to the whole of biology.
also do experiments and make judgments on the outcome of those experiments.
the only one of these you did was observe and report your obsevations.
my statements stand.

What do most molecular biologist possess to work in this field I posted it for you ?

you mean these thing you lack?: Common Requirements
Degree Level Ph.D.*
Degree Field Molecular biology or a related field*
Key Skills Analytical skills, communication skills, problem solving skills, critical thinking skills*
Technical Skills Operation of cloning vectors, temperature cycling chambers, nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectrometers, volumetric pipettes**
Computer Skills Use of analytical and scientific software, graphical imaging software**

Sources: *U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, **O Net OnLine.

Step 1 - Earn a Bachelor's Degree
A molecular biologist can earn an undergraduate degree in molecular biology. In some cases, the degree may be in cell and molecular biology or exist as a concentration within a biology program. Students take science courses that include biology, chemistry, physics and genetics. Students also take lab courses, learning about proper use of equipment and experimental procedure.

Success Tip:
•Participate in research opportunities. Undergraduates can find research opportunities either through a program designated for undergraduates or by making a special request to faculty. Research at the undergraduate level can help students improve critical thinking skills and build professional skills as well as learn to implement and perform credible research.
Step 2 - Earn a Graduate Degree
According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, most molecular biologists require a Ph.D. Some molecular biologists may choose to earn a master's degree prior to pursuing a Ph.D. program, but many doctoral programs accept students without a master's degree. The Ph.D. program generally lasts 4-6 years and includes advanced coursework and required research. Ph.D. candidates will likely have to pass a qualifying exam, during which they are assessed on their knowledge of molecular biology. They also have to introduce a research thesis. Ph.D. candidates have to write a dissertation based on their ongoing research and defend their theses to graduate from the program. Ph.D. programs may also include a teaching requirement.

Success Tip:
•Publish research in a peer-reviewed journal. Research that has been peer-reviewed by other scientists serves as a proof that the research method and results are credible. Graduate students can have research results published as a co-author or as a lead author on a research study.

Why do I hold a molecular biologist degree daws if you are correct ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Of course you live in fear. You even use that fear in hopes of installing fear in others.

The bible tells us that every time we are attacked for our love of God we reap a blessing.

I'll stand by for more slavering, incoherent hatred from the anti-Christian bigot. I like blessings.

look toto it's the witch!

Still nothing to add to the thread.

 

[UltimateReality]

Did you realize that cutting and pasting from a non-christian creationist website actually contradicts your earlier statements?

You fundies should stay away from that vile science stuff.

"DNA code is a sequence of chemicals that form information that control how humans are made and how they work. It is a digital code but it is not binary, but quaternary with 4 distinct items. The encoding information in an ordered sequence of 4 different symbols called "bases", typically denoted A, C, G, and T.

So... apparently DNA is not the "digital machine" that fundies love to describe it as, so as to make goofy allegations such as "DNA is a digital machine. Since all machines require a designer, DNA is therfore the product of a designer.... and not just any designer, but a particular, identifiable designer alluded to in a book I read: the Bible. Since the Bible is true... kinda, sorta, and since I was told as a child that the Bible is true, the Bible is therefore true. And you read all this on the internet, it is absolutely true.

I guess I really don't understand your point. That is, unless you are mistakenly assuming that binary code is the only digital code like NP is assuming. Or you are building a strawman that there was ever a claim that DNA is binary? Please clarify your nonsense.

You're having difficulty defining your own argument. Your desperate efforts to bludgeon others with the circular reference about your gawds, "digital code" and an imagined designer are no less vague, discontinuous and contrived now than they were before.

Ironically, the very science you despise has actually expanded our knowledge about another of the intricate building blocks of life. Through ingenuity and the formidable power of science, what was once only a hypothesis is now understandable. The mumbo jumbo of "the gawds did it" falls further and further into the dustbin of fear and superstition.

Nothing in your response clarifies your comments about binary code. As usual, your response is totally irrelevant to the post you are addressing.

 

[UltimateReality]

There are many articles to be found that dispel the Christian creationist claim that follows in the pattern of Stephen Meyers and his groupies.


DNA : When Is A Code Not A Code ?

DNA : When Is A Code Not A Code ?

Stephen C. Meyer is an intelligent design advocate and a co-founder of the Discovery Institute.

The core argument of Stephen Meyer’s book, Signature in a Cell, written in advocacy of intelligent design, is this: DNA is a code and a computer instruction is a code. Since computer code requires an intelligent designer, and DNA is a code, it follows that DNA is a product of, or is controlled by, an intelligent designer.

This argument has no foundation if one does not accept its basic premises: that DNA is a code that a computer instruction is a code, and that the term 'code' is applicable in exactly the same way to both uses.

"Men take the words they find in use amongst their neighbours; and that they may not seem ignorant what they stand for, use them confidently, without much troubling their heads about a certain fixedmeaning; whereby, besides the ease of it, they obtain this advantage, That, as in such discourses they seldom are in the right, so they are as seldom to be convinced that theyare in the wrong;"

John Locke. An Essay Concerning Human Understanding, Book III, Chapter X. Browse By Author: L - Project Gutenberg


Before leaping to any conclusions based on our use of the word 'code', we must, if we are to be scientific, first define 'code'.

A code is a member of the class 'symbols'. A first level symbol is a label which is used in place of the thing which it identifies. For example, suppose a building with a sign over the window which bears the word 'pharmacy'. We can use the symbol 'pharmacy' in language as a symbolic substitute for any real pharmacy. Suppose now that we invent a slang term 'pill-farm' to mean 'pharmacy'. We now have a secondary label 'pill-farm' which is a second-level symbol for 'pharmacy'. 'Pharmacy' in its turn is a first level symbol for a real building of a specific type.

By convention, a primary symbol is a name, but any secondary symbol is a code: a symbol which stands in place of another symbol. For purposes of clarification, I will give another example. 'And so forth' is a primary label or symbol for an idea. By converting it into Latin, a language spoken by few speakers of English, we encode it as 'et cetera'. We now abbreviate it to 'etc.', a second level coding.

A code is not a symbol. A symbol is not a code. A symbol stands in place of an object or idea. A code stands in place of a symbol: it is a symbol for a symbol.

In computer instructions, we start with the simplest possible representations of what is going on inside a computer chip. We observe that a location in a computer chip can be at one of two voltages. Taking these voltages as our idea we invent symbols for the two voltages: '1' and '0'. These are our primary symbols and they can only be written as binary expressions.

As a convenience, we can use a form of abbreviation which is easier for humans to handle than binary. The most common such abbreviation is hexadecimal code, or hex. As an example, the binary 1010 0101 can be written as A5 in hex. Note that hex, being a secondary symbol level is a code.

When dealing with binary as computer instructions rather than as numbers it is convenient to use mnemonic codes. It may be that the binary string 1111 0000 1100 0100, or F0C4 in hex, is an instruction to the computer core, expressed as F0, to jump to memory location C4, but only IF a previously computed result was non-zero. We can write that as a mnemonic code: JNZ C4.

Such mnemonics are called assembly language. The 'assembly' part of the name comes from the fact that this mnemonic code needs to be assembled into a package of binary numbers in order for the computer to be able to use it as a program.

DNA is a string of molecules. There are four main components: guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine. Those names, the words 'guanine', 'adenine', 'thymine' and 'cytosine' are primary symbols invented by humans to identify the physical molecules which are found in DNA.

For convenience, we often abbreviate these symbols to CAGT, so that we can more readily handle the huge volume of data which we have accumulated about DNA. Please observe: there exists a long molecule of a type which we label DNA. It has four major components to which we assign symbols as names. We next assign symbols to the name symbols as an abbreviating code. We humans have agreed to assign the four letters CAGT as a code for the symbols which in turn stand for the molecular components of DNA.

A code is a symbol which stands in place of a symbol. The four letters CAGT most definitely form a code, being symbols for the names of the four major components of DNA. The names guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine are not codes: they are primary symbols. Primary symbols stand for real things and not for symbols. The real physical entities guanine, adenine, thymine and cytosine are not codes. If anyone wants to call them codes, let them point to the symbols which might be replaced by these 'codes'.

A computer code is a set of numerical values sufficient and necessary to the production of an end state from an initial state.

DNA is necessary but not sufficient to the production of an end statefrom an initial state.

To claim that computer code and DNA are both codes is an abuse of the power of words. It is decidedly not scientific.

Concluding remarks:

Anyone who already believes in intelligent design will derive no new knowledge from Stephen Meyer's book. Anyone who believes in a rigorous approach to science will derive no new knowledge from Stephen Meyer's book.

I conclude that no value is to be obtained from Stephen Meyer's book by any thinking person.

Wow, just wow. Now you can't even remember what you have cut and pasted before!!! Now try to find a rebuttal from an actual scientist, not an atheist agenda website. Your reposting of this fallacious argument Loki used does not make it any more valid. The author contradicts himself even in his own article!!! He states that we assign the symbols 0 and 1 to stand for spaces where the voltages differ. "We observe that a location in a computer chip can be at one of two voltages. Taking these voltages as our idea we invent symbols for the two voltages: '1' and '0'." How is that so much different than us assigning T, A, G, and C to the chemical bases at different locations on the DNA molecule. While we use sequences of 0's and 1's to code for letters that transmit information we can read, the designer used T's, A's, G's, and C's to digitally transmit instructions for assembling proteins. The information in the DNA molecule is not the protein. It is translated by molecular machines to assemble proteins in the every same way the 0's and 1's are translated by the computer to build words or sentences. Even a 1st grader could see the similarity here!!!

 

[UltimateReality]

So tell us, "who" do you think would be stimulating the mutation. Does this "who" have name?

Wait, let me guess. Are you talking about your rugged man hands stimulating the mutant known as Daws?

another false and childish gay slur!

Seriously??? How is this gay if Hollie is a woman? Do you know of any guys named Hollie? Plus, when she was pressed on the other forum about her sex, she responded not "I am man". She responded, "I am of the male persuasion." So let me get this straight. If Hollie is woman who thinks she's a man and she gives you a back rub, is that gay?