Do you stand with Israel or Palestine?

[toomuchtime_]

Never fear. There will mbe no reconcilliation.

BTW, that photo is from March 2007. They have not seen each other since.

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

 

[alexa]

Never fear. There will mbe no reconcilliation.

BTW, that photo is from March 2007. They have not seen each other since.

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Ah you've missed that. That is what they are already interested in. I believe the Palestinian situation will resolve itself once it has it's recognised State and uses the law. I don't really think it can be avoided. The die has been cast.

Israel is one of the strongest military powers in the world. That you believe does not make her safe.

I have found this interesting article which I think captures my criticism of Israel and where Israel needs to move.

Israel is still traumatised. She still lives like a nightmare in the past. It is like the holocaust is still there, waiting to happen again. Indeed on another forum I have often heard people say such, that they believe that is what others still want. Israel is still living in survival mode and survival mode is not a good place to live. It takes all your energy and makes you unable to focus on other important dimensions.

Here the author, Tal Becker describes this. His belief is that Israel has got stuck in the original Political Zionism mode of trying to find safety and that this itself stifles Israel. Anyone who does not agree is seen as the enemy or antisemetic - you know it all. However he, rightly believes that this has caused stagnation. Israel needs he rightly says to move on from viewing things simply on terms of survival but rather on values.

Here is some of what he says

A values-based conversation about Israel differs from the crisis narrative in four important ways. First, it is internally motivated, not externally driven. In a values conversation, it does not matter whether Israel is being criticized or applauded. We are not concerned with what it will take to repel a threat or answer a critic. We are engaged in what it will take to address Israel's challenges and build a society that reflects the values, tradition and experience of our people. It is a conversation about us.

Those engaged in a values conversation measure success not by whether we can persuade the world about the justice of our cause, but by whether we are comfortable with the moral dimensions of our policies. In a crisis-driven narrative, the issue of minorities in Israel, to take one example, is unlikely to be addressed unless it is seen as a threat to Israel's survival or a propaganda weapon for Israel's opponents. In a values-based conversation the way a Jewish society relates to its minorities exists as an independent question that deserves our attention, regardless of whether it receives the attention of others.

-snip- If, for example, the conversation about Israel's response to the Turkish flotilla incident had been more values sensitive, the first question would be what moral issues are at play here. Rather than center the debate on the military and public relations implications of interdiction on the high seas, we would first identify the moral tension between our humanitarian responsibilities to others, and our security responsibilities to ourselves. We would examine, and argue about, how these moral responsibilities could best be met in the circumstances. And because this tension provides no easy answer, we may recognize that the Jew who questions the propriety of Israel's forceful response in this case is not engaged in an act of betrayal, any more than the Jew who supports it is engaged in act of moral bankruptcy. If both are genuinely trying to strike an appropriate balance between legitimate ethical objectives, they are both fulfilling the same responsibility to meet this challenge with a Jewish moral response.

Beyond Survival

I think he has hit the nail on the head on where Israel, for her own good, needs to change.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Never fear. There will mbe no reconcilliation.

BTW, that photo is from March 2007. They have not seen each other since.

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Never fear. There will mbe no reconcilliation.

BTW, that photo is from March 2007. They have not seen each other since.

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Peace is already laid out in international law and UN resolutions.

And what might those "international law" and UN resolutions be?

It is inadmissible to acquire land through the threat or use of force.

Settlers cannot be moved into occupied territory.

People have the right to leave their homes and return to their homes.

A state must have a permanent population a government, and land within defined borders.

The inhabitants have the right to self determination.

 

[Free Thinker]

TOOMUCHTIME you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately, P F Tinmore is overloaded with MISinformation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

don't have the proper permits

Bullshit excuse.

Why do the Palestinians have to apply to foreigners to get permits to build on their own land? I don't need to go to Canada to get a permit to build in Ohio.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

Then where does Israel get all that land for settlements?

There are homes being demolished every day. There are settlements being built every day. Are you saying that these are not related?

 

[toomuchtime_]

Never fear. There will mbe no reconcilliation.

BTW, that photo is from March 2007. They have not seen each other since.

Indeed, reconciliation is not a real possibility. What is needed is for the Palestinian Arabs to overthrow both of these brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments and replace them with new government that is concerned with the present needs of the people living there rather than sacrificing their present welfare in order to pursue ancient ideological goals. When that happens, the aspirations of the Palestinian Arabs for a viable state with a viable economy will be possible because such a government would be able to provide reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns. Until this happens, imo, no real progress will be made.

Ah you've missed that. That is what they are already interested in. I believe the Palestinian situation will resolve itself once it has it's recognised State and uses the law. I don't really think it can be avoided. The die has been cast.

Israel is one of the strongest military powers in the world. That you believe does not make her safe.

I have found this interesting article which I think captures my criticism of Israel and where Israel needs to move.

Israel is still traumatised. She still lives like a nightmare in the past. It is like the holocaust is still there, waiting to happen again. Indeed on another forum I have often heard people say such, that they believe that is what others still want. Israel is still living in survival mode and survival mode is not a good place to live. It takes all your energy and makes you unable to focus on other important dimensions.

Here the author, Tal Becker describes this. His belief is that Israel has got stuck in the original Political Zionism mode of trying to find safety and that this itself stifles Israel. Anyone who does not agree is seen as the enemy or antisemetic - you know it all. However he, rightly believes that this has caused stagnation. Israel needs he rightly says to move on from viewing things simply on terms of survival but rather on values.

Here is some of what he says

A values-based conversation about Israel differs from the crisis narrative in four important ways. First, it is internally motivated, not externally driven. In a values conversation, it does not matter whether Israel is being criticized or applauded. We are not concerned with what it will take to repel a threat or answer a critic. We are engaged in what it will take to address Israel's challenges and build a society that reflects the values, tradition and experience of our people. It is a conversation about us.

Those engaged in a values conversation measure success not by whether we can persuade the world about the justice of our cause, but by whether we are comfortable with the moral dimensions of our policies. In a crisis-driven narrative, the issue of minorities in Israel, to take one example, is unlikely to be addressed unless it is seen as a threat to Israel's survival or a propaganda weapon for Israel's opponents. In a values-based conversation the way a Jewish society relates to its minorities exists as an independent question that deserves our attention, regardless of whether it receives the attention of others.

-snip- If, for example, the conversation about Israel's response to the Turkish flotilla incident had been more values sensitive, the first question would be what moral issues are at play here. Rather than center the debate on the military and public relations implications of interdiction on the high seas, we would first identify the moral tension between our humanitarian responsibilities to others, and our security responsibilities to ourselves. We would examine, and argue about, how these moral responsibilities could best be met in the circumstances. And because this tension provides no easy answer, we may recognize that the Jew who questions the propriety of Israel's forceful response in this case is not engaged in an act of betrayal, any more than the Jew who supports it is engaged in act of moral bankruptcy. If both are genuinely trying to strike an appropriate balance between legitimate ethical objectives, they are both fulfilling the same responsibility to meet this challenge with a Jewish moral response.

Beyond Survival

I think he has hit the nail on the head on where Israel, for her own good, needs to change.

Not that this is responsive to my post, but Israel is not so much traumatized by the Holocaust as the many suicide bombers who blew up Israelis while they were eating or praying, not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish, before the West Bank fence was built and the years of daily bombings of Israeli communities from Gaza. While it is true that the Palestinian Arabs cannot defeat Israel, they can traumatize and kill Israeli civilians if Israel does not remain vigilant and maintain strong security measures to protect them until such time that the Palestinian Arabs throw out the brutal, corrupt, incompetent and illegal governments they now have in both Gaza and the West Bank and install a government that will place the people above ideology so that it can give reliable assurances to Israel about its security concerns.

You may wish to believe that the Palestinian Arabs will reform their government if they first get a state of their own, but you have no basis in fact or logic for believing it.

 

[P F Tinmore]

not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish,

Not!

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

Then where does Israel get all that land for settlements?

There are homes being demolished every day. There are settlements being built every day. Are you saying that these are not related?

The land for the legal Israeli West Bank communities was laid out in the 1980's and no Palestinian Arab land has been taken to build in these in these communities since then. Palestinian Arab buildings are only demolished by the government in Area C if they have been build illegally; none are demolished in Areas A or B, which are under PA civil control and in which there are no Israeli West Bank communities. Illegal Israeli outposts are regularly demolished by the IDF and Shin Bit. None of the demolitions of any of these buildings, Arab or Jewish is related to the building of new settlements.

 

[toomuchtime_]

not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish,

Not!

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

Not true. No predominantly Arab/Muslim locations were targeted by the suicide bombers and none of the Arab/Muslim communities in the Negev, and there are several within range of Gaza, were targeted. Only predominantly Jewish locations and communities have been targeted by Palestinian Arab terrorist gangs.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Israel bulldozes Palestinian homes every day to make room for Israeli settlements.

It is a "present need" to stop that.

I'm sure you know that's not true. Demolitions of Jewish and Arab buildings that don't have the proper permits go on all the time, and all of this takes place in Area C which by agreement with the PA is under Israeli civil and security control, but none of the demolitions of Palestinian Arab buildings are for the purpose of building new settlements.

don't have the proper permits

Bullshit excuse.

Why do the Palestinians have to apply to foreigners to get permits to build on their own land? I don't need to go to Canada to get a permit to build in Ohio.

By agreement with the PA, Israel has civil and security control over Area C, where all the demolitions have taken place, and Israel has the same process for issuing permits in Area C for Israelis and Palestinian Arabs alike that it uses inside of Israel.

 

[Free Thinker]

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

NOT TRUE!!!

When tracking the locations of frequent Palestinian Terrorist attacks, it becomes very obvious that they target any location where they can shed innocent Jewish blood. The Terrorists overwhelmingly prefer to attack Jewish schools, residential areas, and other popular gathering places. They even attack Jews outside of Israel. Also, the Palestinian Terrorists NEVER attempt to offer warnings to help protect women and young children. Basically, they want Jews dead. When I was in the West Bank, there were palestinians wearing headbands that said..."Kill Jews". Hatred of Jews is 100% relevant! They just can't stand the idea of a Middle East that is not TOTALLY controlled by Muslims.

 

[mike beev]

I wish the US would stand with neither, and let them sort it out without our involvement. If it wasn't for the Jewish lobby, we probably would not get involved. Do you think there would have been a 911 attack if there had not been a Jewish state created in 1948?

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWHeX1bF_NI]YouTube - ‪Jerusalem 'ethnic cleansing'‬‏[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

Their religion is irrelevant.

NOT TRUE!!!

When tracking the locations of frequent Palestinian Terrorist attacks, it becomes very obvious that they target any location where they can shed innocent Jewish blood. The Terrorists overwhelmingly prefer to attack Jewish schools, residential areas, and other popular gathering places. They even attack Jews outside of Israel. Also, the Palestinian Terrorists NEVER attempt to offer warnings to help protect women and young children. Basically, they want Jews dead. When I was in the West Bank, there were palestinians wearing headbands that said..."Kill Jews". Hatred of Jews is 100% relevant! They just can't stand the idea of a Middle East that is not TOTALLY controlled by Muslims.

attack Jewish schools, residential areas,

Got links?

 

[Free Thinker]

Got links?

I was in Israel when a Holiday Resort in Egypt that Jews Frequented was Bombed by Palestinians. Another time, I as in Israel when a bus was bombed by Palestinians near a farm outside of Tel Aviv. Attached is a list of such TERROR Attacks (It is not up-to-date...it ends in 2005). It does not include 1000s of random Hamas Terror bombings.

Major Palestinian Terror Attacks Since Oslo

 

[P F Tinmore]

Got links?

I was in Israel when a Holiday Resort in Egypt that Jews Frequented was Bombed by Palestinians. Another time, I as in Israel when a bus was bombed by Palestinians near a farm outside of Tel Aviv. Attached is a list of such TERROR Attacks (It is not up-to-date...it ends in 2005). It does not include 1000s of random Hamas Terror bombings.

Major Palestinian Terror Attacks Since Oslo

According to the 4th Geneva conventions, settlers are not protected persons. Not all civilians are protected persons. It is only terrorism if the targets are protected persons.

For example, all Palestinians are civilians.

 

[Free Thinker]

For example, all Palestinians are civilians.

You would probably also think that Osama Bin Ladin was a non-combatent "civilian!

I am soooo glad that the Leaders of the GREAT USA do NOT think like you!!!!