Do you stand with Israel or Palestine?

[toomuchtime_]

A return to conditions before the second intifada would be a great economic boon to Israel as well, and most Israelis would welcome it if they could be satisfied they would not again come under attack.

There will be no peace until there is a return to the conditions before the occupation. Israel expects peace while keeping the occupation. That is not going to happen. The ball is in Israel's court.

You're wrong. There is peace now. Chicagoans have a greater chance of being killed by criminals than Israelis, even in the West Bank, have of being killed by Palestinian Arabs. Israel has never been stronger, safer or more prosperous than it is now.

On the other hand, the Palestinian Arabs are in complete disarray. They have no legitimate government, no chance of getting one, no prospects for improving their economies and stand in constant danger of losing the foreign donations that sustain them.

At this time, Israel owns the ball and the court, but may be willing to sell you jerseys if you agree to play nice.

 

[alexa]

All Israeli citizens have equal rights, protections and opportunities under the law,and Israel has an independent judiciary that has fiercely defended those rights whenever some politicians have tried to violate them.

Not in practice. I agree that many Arab Israelis after decades of discrimination and inequality have found that the Supreme Court has secured their rights though Jeff Harper points out that that does not happen in the area of housing. What I think you miss is that there are ways to avoid equality. Some of them are pointed out here.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhXa_luFgZQ]YouTube - ‪Targeted Citizen‬‏[/ame]

While many Arab Israelis have become successful, even prominent, in the professions, the arts, business and politics, substantial numbers lag behind the national averages in education and income, but these are nearly all from all Arab towns and villages that have insisted the schools provide instruction in Arabic and teach Hebrew only as a second language.

In a country where 80% of the population speaks Hebrew as its first language, lack of proficiency in Hebrew puts these students at obvious disadvantage in terms of future education and earnings, but Arab Israeli politicians, all of whom have arrived at their present positions by mastering Hebrew and passing through Israeli colleges and professional schools, who have their voter bases in these towns have urged their constituents to shun all things Israeli or Jewish, including the Hebrew language, in order to affirm a Palestinian identity.

What can be taught in Arab schools is under Jewish supervision. Now I can understand Arabs wanting to keep their own language as part of their heritage. My own language was forbidden for a few decades and most people forgot it and now 3 century's later we are learning it again and changing our street signs and so on. It would be sensible for everyone to be bi-lingual. Good for the intelligence too as language covers ideas. As the video says, Palestinian or Arab citizens do not have a strong sense of their own identity. This partly comes from not learning their own history in school. A sense of identity is crucial for feelings of self esteem. Self esteem is crucial for achievement.

Arab schools receive far less money on education than Jewish.

I appreciate what you say about Arabs not wanting to learn about Jews but it goes both ways and I am not certain everything Jews are taught in their schools is accurate. This is clearly a big social problem and one that does need to be addressed for social cohesion. It goes back again to the need for honesty and recognising what has happened in the past. This may be hard but is necessary to move on.

Minorities are at similar disadvantages in all countries, certainly including the US, UK and France.

No, that is not true. It really isn't. An enormous amount of work has gone on in this country to work on racism and where it is still found that work continues. It is because of this work that the disadvantages in Israel are noticed.

Like the other great democracies, Israel has taken steps to try to remove these disadvantages, such as busing, on a voluntary basis, both Jewish Israeli and Arab Israeli students to schools where they will be exposed to the other culture, reserving spaces in colleges and professional schools for Arab Israeli students and providing special scholarships for them, but as in the other great democracies, these efforts have had only limited success. No honest person would pretend that the problems of minorities among Israeli citizens are any different from the problems of minorities in the other great democracies.

I don't know about this. Can you give links? I know that arab students used to receive grants to study abroad, believed by critics to be because of a hope that they would like it better or meet someone to marry but I am unaware of them receiving special assistance in Israel. Indeed I am sure I read a while back about some new rule which amounted to having to have done military service to meet the requirements for University admission and that of course would rule most of them out.

My reading is different from yours. I understood Jewish Israeli's thought of the arab population as a fifth column not as true citizens at all.

In employment they are really discriminated against. Firstly the need of so many jobs to have served in the military. This includes things like engineering, textile work, police work as many other things as well as the more obvious things.


After all that they still face discrimination. Most Palestinians end up in low paid manual work. I suspect Israel does not have the motivation to properly deal with these issues as she is hopeful to get the Arab citizens to leave.

Regarding the police. For social cohesion it really is important that Israel gets Arab citizens in the police force. You believe Israel is the same as countries like my own. No, we have made a conscious effort to get our minorities represented in the police force. It is very important for people to see that the law is represented by everyone.

No one has asked Israeli citizens to pledge allegiance to the Jewish state. The proposed legislation only asked that those who want to become Israeli citizens in the future make such a pledge.

OK, I was possibly getting confused with this and the reality that some Arab Israelis are having their Israeli citizenship withdrawn. Do not Arab politicians as well as Jewish ones have to pledge allegiance to a Jewish state?

This is no different from the laws regarding new citizens in the other great democracies.

There is. This is a massive difference between Israel and my own country and I would think all western countries. In the UK you are a British citizen and a British National. In Israel you are an Israeli Citizen and then either a Jewish National or an Arab National. You can have been born and descended for eternity in Timbuktu but in the UK but once you become a citizen, nationality is inclusive.

In each case, the applicant must pledge allegiance to the state even if he/she strongly disagrees with some of its laws or policies. Pledging allegiance to the Jewish state should be no special burden for Muslims or others, unless the word, Jewish is just too offensive to you to utter, since all Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights, protections and opportunities under the law and religious matters, including some domestic matters such as marriage and divorce are under the jurisdiction of the leaders of each religion. So if you are a Muslim or a Christian, religious matters and some domestic matters will be decided for you by Muslim religious leaders or Christian religious leaders and Jewish law or practice will not effect you at all.

Indeed, calling Israel a Jewish state should raise no objections to new Muslim citizens that they would not have as new citizens in the other great democracies when they find the government closes down on Sunday, the Christian Sabbath or that the country erupts in messages and celebrations of Christianity at Christmas or Easter. While calling Israel a Jewish state has benefits for Jews in other places, it does not limit the rights, protections or opportunities of non Jewish citizens of Israel, so why should they care, unless they find the word, Jewish, so hateful they just cannot bare to hear it uttered?

Well as above it is not the same. And my argument has nothing do to with their being any problems with Jews. Half the Jews in my country have similar views to mine. It has to do with asking people to pledge for a Jewish state. The simplest way to see how this is to the other is to show you how it would be if it were done in the UK. We would ask people to pledge allegiance to the UK as a white state. Obviously people would think they were subservient. It just doesn't work. If you have people of different ethnicities, they state has to include them all. Only with inclusion can people feel part of the state, can people feel that it is theirs and that they belong. If people are being asked to pledge allegiance to a white or Jewish state and they are not white or Jewish then clearly they are being asked to pledge allegiance to something which does not include them, something to which they are not equal. Whatever your motivation for your belief in this, there is no way out of what I said. You ask some people to become citizens of a state that is not inclusive of them.

While I agree, because of the way it was handled, that the Second Lebanon War was a mistake, it is simply not true that no action was taken to end it. The UNSC passed resolution 1701 which required, among other things, that Israel withdraw from Lebanon and it did. While you may be disappointed that NATO didn't kill any Israelis, it is simply not true that the international community or the US failed to take action to stop the war.

Actually that article was on the recent protests.

It's just idiotic to believe that there will be a Palestinian state in September that is more than a Facebook state,

not true, it is optimistic but it is definitely doable

and it is even more idiotic to hope that there will be through the GA. Without a unified government there will be no support for a Palestinian state at the UN, which is why Abbas and Hamas are going through the motions of constructing one.

Indeed that is a vital point.

But if there is one, then under US law, all US support for that government, $400,000,000 this year, would have to stop since Hamas is listed as a terrorist group. Similarly, the EU lists Hamas as a terrorist group and that would put an end to most if not all donations from EU countries.

The EU does recognise Hamas as a terrorist group - or rather I think she recognises Hamas as a legitimate government and a separate component as terrorist. Not sure but I think it is something like that. The EU became aware of destruction caused by it originally withdrawing aid from Gaza after Hamas was democratically elected. I do not see the EU withdrawing funding.

However you do not take into consideration that Hamas may well not still be in power.

More to the point, the EU is one of the biggest contributors to Palestine and after 20 years of peace talks which went nowhere and with it seeming Israel is continuing with settlements rather than setting about looking for two viable and secure states, it is looking likely that both France and the UK will recognise a Palestinian State unless meaningful talks are in progress. While Germany for obvious reasons is more reluctant to do anything to upset Israel, she has said she will vote for Obama's ideas to be accepted. You would be naive if you did not recognise that the tide of opinion is turning towards the Palestinians due to the attitude of Netanyahu and the lack of any progress for peace - indeed with more settlements all the time, the two state solution looks more and more improbable.

Additionally

Since the civil administrations in both the West Bank and Gaza are by far the largest employers in these economies, and since nearly the entire costs of these civil administrations are paid for with these donations, the loss of them would have disastrous economic consequences for the Arabs living there.

Hundreds of millions more would be lost when Israel, to prevent money for going to Hamas, shut its border with the West Bank to all goods and people and refused to collect customs duties for the PA, its major source of revenue after donations, and this would also leave most West Bank crops rotting in the fields since there would be no available customers. All traffic out of the West Bank would have to pass through Jordan, which already strictly limits the movement of West Bank Arabs through it territory. To reach the Mediterranean or Gaza, goods and people would have to travel through Jordan, across the Red Sea and through Sinai. Under international law, Israel would be relieved of its responsibilities as an occupying force and would no longer have to supply fuel or electricity to either Gaza or the West Bank. While Gaza might be able to get some of the fuel and electricity it needs from Egypt, the West Bank would be dark, cold and without much movement.

Israel has not been obliged by it's responsibilities up till now. Download the report Separate and Unequal | Human Rights Watch. She already deprives many palestinians of the basics of electricity and even proper sewerage disposal, never mind the banthustans and checkpoints effect on economic success....but do you have any idea of how you make Israel sound - that would remove necessities needed for survival from a people.

You have to remember that the resources needed are on legal Palestinian soil, that is where law starts to come in.

It should be clear to any reasonably intelligent person that for a new Palestinian state to survive, let alone prosper, it will need excellent relations with Israel, so no one who is truly pro Palestinian and not merely anti Israeli would want the see the kind of abortion that the PA now proposes to ask the UN for.

well look at the moment there is no possibility of a Palestinian state. All that is happening is that all the time they are having more and more land and resources taken away. They have no human rights. They are treated just like colonial powers always treated those they colonised. This has to end. If Israel wishes to have good relations with the new Palestinian State it is well within her ability to do so. You need to understand that world opinion has moved. It wants justice for the Palestinians....that is all, just Justice.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Toomuchtime is talking about Israeli Arabs who are citizens of Israel, as opposed to the Palestinians. The two should not be confused. I know when my grandmother was in a Haifa hospital, there were many Arab doctors, nurses and cooks on staff.

 

[alexa]

Toomuchtime is talking about Israeli Arabs who are citizens of Israel, as opposed to the Palestinians. The two should not be confused. I know when my grandmother was in a Haifa hospital, there were many Arab doctors, nurses and cooks on staff.

If you are referring to my post above you will see that I am answering toomuchtime's questions and that three quarters of the post is dealing with the experience of Arab or Palestinian citizens (I understand that is what many prefer to be called, from Jeff Harper I think)

I hope your grandmother was well cared for but that does not change the inequalities in employment opportunities I mentioned or the reasons for them.

Here are a couple of Israel sources for the current situation.

Israeli Arabs earn less than Jews despite working longer hours data shows


According to 2008 data, average gross salary per household in Israel was much lower for Arabs - NIS 8,818, compared to NIS 14,242 for Jewish households.

Israeli Arab men earn less than their Jewish counterparts for the same work, and Arab women have substantially lower employment rates, according to 2008 data recently released by the Industry, Trade and Labor Ministry and the Central Bureau of Statistics.

Israeli Arabs earn less than Jews despite working longer hours, data shows - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


and

According to the report, the poverty rate among all people living in households with at least one breadwinner reached 18% in the past two years – a particularly high rate both compared to the past and compared to other developed countries.

According to the data, the problem is particularly noticeable in recent years among Israel's Arabs. According to the report, about two-thirds of the poor workers are Arab – a very high rate compared to their percentage in the general population (about one-fifth)

Report: 60% of poor Israelis work - Israel Business, Ynetnews

Obviously the situation is even worse in the occupied territories but clearly this shows problems within Israel.

 

[Sallow]

A return to conditions before the second intifada would be a great economic boon to Israel as well, and most Israelis would welcome it if they could be satisfied they would not again come under attack.

There will be no peace until there is a return to the conditions before the occupation. Israel expects peace while keeping the occupation. That is not going to happen. The ball is in Israel's court.

You're wrong. There is peace now. Chicagoans have a greater chance of being killed by criminals than Israelis, even in the West Bank, have of being killed by Palestinian Arabs. Israel has never been stronger, safer or more prosperous than it is now.

On the other hand, the Palestinian Arabs are in complete disarray. They have no legitimate government, no chance of getting one, no prospects for improving their economies and stand in constant danger of losing the foreign donations that sustain them.

At this time, Israel owns the ball and the court, but may be willing to sell you jerseys if you agree to play nice.

So I see you aren't really interested in settling anything in that region.

But it's not just you.

Which is why there is terrorism.

 

[LAfrique]

I stand with truth. Though a Christian, I know that without Holy texts, the nation Israel does not exists. And I now strongly believe that the history of Israel is in fact the history of social justice in its extremity. (You are welcome to search for "Palestine, Israel and God" by L'Afrique to see reason for change of mind.)

 

[docmauser1]

not because of anything they had done but simply because they were Jewish,

They were attacked because they are settlers occupying Palestinian land.

So, who was that sheikh, sultan, emir, imam, president, prime-minister there to substantuate that usual occupational claim?

 

[docmauser1]

According to the 4th Geneva conventions, settlers are not protected persons.

Settlers, calling others settlers. Funny.

Not all civilians are protected persons. It is only terrorism if the targets are protected persons. For example, all Palestinians are civilians.

And all paleban terrorists are civilians, of course.

 

[docmauser1]

Peace is already laid out in international law and UN resolutions.

And what might those "international law" and UN resolutions be?

It is inadmissible to acquire land through the threat or use of force.

That's what arabs have been supposed to learn after their ill-advised adventure of trying to relieve jews of their holding and property ended in arab butt-stomping, but they never learn.

Settlers cannot be moved into occupied territory.

There're no occuppied territories, of course, and settlers, calling others settlers is ridiculously funny.

People have the right to leave their homes and return to their homes.

On paper, of course, as germans and the japanese learned after WW2.

A state must have a permanent population a government, and land within defined borders.

Exactly the stuff our palistanians have never had to substantiate their occupationally occupational drivel.

The inhabitants have the right to self determination.

Palistanian imagination is of a rather limited scope, so, it's moot.

 

[P F Tinmore]

According to the 4th Geneva conventions, settlers are not protected persons.

Settlers, calling others settlers. Funny.

Not all civilians are protected persons. It is only terrorism if the targets are protected persons. For example, all Palestinians are civilians.

And all paleban terrorists are civilians, of course.

Actually, all Palestinians are civilians. They have no military.

 

[docmauser1]

According to the 4th Geneva conventions, settlers are not protected persons.

Settlers, calling others settlers. Funny.

Not all civilians are protected persons. It is only terrorism if the targets are protected persons. For example, all Palestinians are civilians.

And all paleban terrorists are civilians, of course.

Actually, all Palestinians are civilians. They have no military.

That's why palistanis and their cheerleaders should stop bamboozzling the international community and drop that "civilian" stuff and report truth, like, "our intrepid terrorist was offed", or "two of our brave hooligans got their butts kicked by the police", or, simply, "the shahid let his last fart out". Honest and to the point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Settlers, calling others settlers. Funny.And all paleban terrorists are civilians, of course.

Actually, all Palestinians are civilians. They have no military.

That's why palistanis and their cheerleaders should stop bamboozzling the international community and drop that "civilian" stuff and report truth, like, "our intrepid terrorist was offed", or "two of our brave hooligans got their butts kicked by the police", or, simply, "the shahid let his last fart out". Honest and to the point.

"Civilian" itself is not the determining factor in "terrorism? The term is "protected person." Not all civilians are protected persons.

For example: Settlers are civilians but are not protected persons.

 

[docmauser1]

Actually, all Palestinians are civilians. They have no military.

That's why palistanis and their cheerleaders should stop bamboozzling the international community and drop that "civilian" stuff and report truth, like, "our intrepid terrorist was offed", or "two of our brave hooligans got their butts kicked by the police", or, simply, "the shahid let his last fart out". Honest and to the point.

"Civilian" itself is not the determining factor in "terrorism?

In case of our palistanians it, indeed, is.

The term is "protected person." Not all civilians are protected persons. For example: Settlers are civilians but are not protected persons.

Settlers, calling others settlers. Arab settlers and squatters should've had a state first to claim applicability of the Article 49.

 

[P F Tinmore]

That's why palistanis and their cheerleaders should stop bamboozzling the international community and drop that "civilian" stuff and report truth, like, "our intrepid terrorist was offed", or "two of our brave hooligans got their butts kicked by the police", or, simply, "the shahid let his last fart out". Honest and to the point.

"Civilian" itself is not the determining factor in "terrorism?

In case of our palistanians it, indeed, is.

The term is "protected person." Not all civilians are protected persons. For example: Settlers are civilians but are not protected persons.

Settlers, calling others settlers. Arab settlers and squatters should've had a state first to claim applicability of the Article 49.

The exact number of countries recognizing the State of Palestine is unknown, due to the equivocal nature of many official statements of acknowledgment.[155] Many countries have a standing policy against making formal declarations that recognize new governments instead indicating their recognition of a state by doing business with its government.[105] Francis Boyle, legal advisor to the PLO, assisted the organization in drafting the 1988 Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Palestine. At that time, the United States was using its Foreign Assistance Act and other measures to discourage other countries and international organizations from extending recognition.[156] According to one author, by 1988, more than 100 countries had recognized Palestine.[157] Boyle reported in 1990 that the number was 114 states.[95] In 2005, Anat Kurz reported that 117 United Nations member states had formally recognised the state of Palestine as a sovereign state.[158] In 2010, Boyle reported that the number was 127.[159]

State of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[LAfrique]

It is impossible for anyone with true knowledge of Israel to be confused about situation between Israel and Palestine. Fact are:

!). Israel was always nomad and only got hope of permanent homeland from alleged promise in Genesis 15:18-21;

2). There were occupants in alleged promised land in Genesis;

3). Israel is merely a dynasty and the nation Israel is purely creation of holy texts.

History shows that land grab has never been a smart move, seeing humans are naturally very territorial and descendants are bound to fight for that which is rightfully theirs. And if you still do not follow, simply visit Texas. Texas has been reclaimed, and it is only a matter of time before we all start moving up North.

 

[Ropey]

There will be no peace until there is a return to the conditions before the occupation. Israel expects peace while keeping the occupation. That is not going to happen. The ball is in Israel's court.

You're wrong. There is peace now. Chicagoans have a greater chance of being killed by criminals than Israelis, even in the West Bank, have of being killed by Palestinian Arabs. Israel has never been stronger, safer or more prosperous than it is now.

On the other hand, the Palestinian Arabs are in complete disarray. They have no legitimate government, no chance of getting one, no prospects for improving their economies and stand in constant danger of losing the foreign donations that sustain them.

At this time, Israel owns the ball and the court, but may be willing to sell you jerseys if you agree to play nice.

So I see you aren't really interested in settling anything in that region.

But it's not just you.

Which is why there is terrorism.

We may disagree on some things but agree on this.

 

[Ropey]

Israel is Red. Muslim is Green.

Zionism is the problem?

Bears repeating. Those green spots? That's where Muslims are killing Christians and other unbelievers.

Then some complain about the poor treatment of the 20% Arab population in Israel. They increase. In every other Muslim country, the unbelievers continue to decrease.

The religion of peace is clearly singular. Peace to them and war to all others. Yes, even you liberal bleeding hearts.

 

[P F Tinmore]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqQDyMjCVqU]YouTube - ‪Persecution of Palestinian Christians by Isreal‬‏[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuVtRVwS8xU]YouTube - ‪Remember Palestine-Christians in Palestine-12-25-2010-(Part1)‬‏[/ame]
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds9lswyl7TM&feature=related]YouTube - ‪Israel Refuses to Return Stolen Christian Homes 60yrs Later‬‏[/ame]

 

[P F Tinmore]

Bombs exploding at Passover Seders or in restaurants or in buses are not psychological events; that's real blood splattered everywhere and those are real body parts being scraped off the walls. The suicide bombings were ended by reoccupying the West Bank and by building the security fence, not by talking to psychologists. Perhaps this sent a lot of frustrated wannabe suicide bombers in search of psychological help to sort out their feelings and values with respect to not being able to kill Jews, but it provided their prospective victims with a sense of calm and relief greater than any psychological guru ever could.

As for freedom and social justice in Israel, it meets or exceeds the standards of the other great democracies and is beyond the wildest imaginings of most of the Arabs in the region, Which is why you see dissidents like Zoabi daily excoriate the Jews - whom she calls Israelis while calling Arab Israelis Palestinians - the government from the top level right down to the cop on the beat, as well as her fellow legislators while consorting with Israel's sworn enemies and she still not only goes free but continues to serve in the Knesset.

To you a concern about Jews being blown up while eating or praying just because they are Jews may seem a red herring, but to Israeli Jews the memory of the Arab depredations during the second intifada is still fresh, and security is their prime concern not because of the Holocaust but because they saw a few years ago that only the strongest security measures were able to keep them safe from Palestinian Arab terrorists.

You may, in desperation, wish to think time is running out for Israel, but in fact, or that Israel will become isolated, but nothing could be further from the truth. Popular support for Israel in the US is overwhelming and recent polls show it is still growing. Israel has excellent relations with nearly all European countries from the Atlantic right to the doorstep of Russia as well as with China and India and many African and Asian and South American nations. Sympathy for the image of the suffering Palestinian Arab that activists have projected around the world has not resulted in any kind of hardship for Israel.

Btw, not that it's really relevant, but Becker is a lawyer, not a psychologist.

1. You are speaking to the wrong person about the odd bomb. Even though there is now officially peace in Northern Ireland, the last two years have seen a series of terrorists actions and attempts, so your over reaction does no good. Do we see the need to send the SAS in to indiscriminately kill people and destroy homes? Of course not. Are we trembling in our boots and calling out to the world to save us? Of course not.

2. Read the human rights report concerning social justice, equality and International Law in the West Bank . It disgusts.

3. I can't be bothered looking and presenting all the data but your belief that there is social justice for Palestinians in Israel shows someone who has no knowledge of what social justice is. Look at housing, look at education, look at jobs. All you tell 'tall tales' on....never mind demanding someone who is not a Jew gives an allegiance to a Jewish State - that clearly without anything else indicates that Israel is a state which does not treat it's citizens equally but asks Christian and Muslim citizens to be the 'dhimmis' of the Jews.

4. When we are dealing with Israel, it is indeed given different treatment but that difference is preferential treatment.

as an example

Israel is showing itself to be no different to the infamous despotic Arab regimes in its willingness to use brutal force against people demanding their rights. This was clear yesterday when more than a dozen were killed and hundreds injured in Lebanon, Syria's occupied Golan Heights, and in the occupied West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip. In Lebanon, 10 were killed and more than 100 injured, including Lebanese soldiers, when Israel opened fire on protesters at the border fence.

Palestinians in Lebanon, at the lonely end of the Arab uprisings | Matthew Cassel | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Did the world intervene and demand Nato make a no fly zone. Not a bit of it. Preferential treatment for Israel.

5. Like it or not a Palestinian State is going to happen in September - a Palestinian State on '67 borders. Then the law will set in and Israel will be called to account by the law just like everyone else. Have a look at Haaretz if you believe that the US alone can save Israel for ever? Note France is wanting meaningful talks now. Note the US trying to get Net to accept OBama's suggestion and get quick into talks on that before September. The US will not be able to protect Israel for much longer.

One thing that gives me heart is the law of karma. Wait long enough and it will come. Estimates of 10 years probably give enough time. The Palestinians will through the rule of law coupled almost certainly with the worldwide isolation and sanctions against Israel get Justice. Of course how it happens is largely up to Israel but it will happen.


6. Makes no difference whether Becker is a lawyer of a psychologist, what he was pointing out was a psychological problem.

All Israeli citizens have equal rights, protections and opportunities under the law, and Israel has an independent judiciary that has fiercely defended those rights whenever some politicians have tried to violate them. While many Arab Israelis have become successful, even prominent, in the professions, the arts, business and politics, substantial numbers lag behind the national averages in education and income, but these are nearly all from all Arab towns and villages that have insisted the schools provide instruction in Arabic and teach Hebrew only as a second language. In a country where 80% of the population speaks Hebrew as its first language, lack of proficiency in Hebrew puts these students at obvious disadvantage in terms of future education and earnings, but Arab Israeli politicians, all of whom have arrived at their present positions by mastering Hebrew and passing through Israeli colleges and professional schools, who have their voter bases in these towns have urged their constituents to shun all things Israeli or Jewish, including the Hebrew language, in order to affirm a Palestinian identity.

Minorities are at similar disadvantages in all countries, certainly including the US, UK and France. Like the other great democracies, Israel has taken steps to try to remove these disadvantages, such as busing, on a voluntary basis, both Jewish Israeli and Arab Israeli students to schools where they will be exposed to the other culture, reserving spaces in colleges and professional schools for Arab Israeli students and providing special scholarships for them, but as in the other great democracies, these efforts have had only limited success. No honest person would pretend that the problems of minorities among Israeli citizens are any different from the problems of minorities in the other great democracies.

No one has asked Israeli citizens to pledge allegiance to the Jewish state. The proposed legislation only asked that those who want to become Israeli citizens in the future make such a pledge. This is no different from the laws regarding new citizens in the other great democracies. In each case, the applicant must pledge allegiance to the state even if he/she strongly disagrees with some of its laws or policies. Pledging allegiance to the Jewish state should be no special burden for Muslims or others, unless the word, Jewish is just too offensive to you to utter, since all Israeli citizens enjoy equal rights, protections and opportunities under the law and religious matters, including some domestic matters such as marriage and divorce are under the jurisdiction of the leaders of each religion. So if you are a Muslim or a Christian, religious matters and some domestic matters will be decided for you by Muslim religious leaders or Christian religious leaders and Jewish law or practice will not effect you at all.

Indeed, calling Israel a Jewish state should raise no objections to new Muslim citizens that they would not have as new citizens in the other great democracies when they find the government closes down on Sunday, the Christian Sabbath or that the country erupts in messages and celebrations of Christianity at Christmas or Easter. While calling Israel a Jewish state has benefits for Jews in other places, it does not limit the rights, protections or opportunities of non Jewish citizens of Israel, so why should they care, unless they find the word, Jewish, so hateful they just cannot bare to hear it uttered?

While I agree, because of the way it was handled, that the Second Lebanon War was a mistake, it is simply not true that no action was taken to end it. The UNSC passed resolution 1701 which required, among other things, that Israel withdraw from Lebanon and it did. While you may be disappointed that NATO didn't kill any Israelis, it is simply not true that the international community or the US failed to take action to stop the war.

It's just idiotic to believe that there will be a Palestinian state in September that is more than a Facebook state, and it is even more idiotic to hope that there will be through the GA. Without a unified government there will be no support for a Palestinian state at the UN, which is why Abbas and Hamas are going through the motions of constructing one. But if there is one, then under US law, all US support for that government, $400,000,000 this year, would have to stop since Hamas is listed as a terrorist group. Similarly, the EU lists Hamas as a terrorist group and that would put an end to most if not all donations from EU countries. Since the civil administrations in both the West Bank and Gaza are by far the largest employers in these economies, and since nearly the entire costs of these civil administrations are paid for with these donations, the loss of them would have disastrous economic consequences for the Arabs living there.

Hundreds of millions more would be lost when Israel, to prevent money for going to Hamas, shut its border with the West Bank to all goods and people and refused to collect customs duties for the PA, its major source of revenue after donations, and this would also leave most West Bank crops rotting in the fields since there would be no available customers. All traffic out of the West Bank would have to pass through Jordan, which already strictly limits the movement of West Bank Arabs through it territory. To reach the Mediterranean or Gaza, goods and people would have to travel through Jordan, across the Red Sea and through Sinai. Under international law, Israel would be relieved of its responsibilities as an occupying force and would no longer have to supply fuel or electricity to either Gaza or the West Bank. While Gaza might be able to get some of the fuel and electricity it needs from Egypt, the West Bank would be dark, cold and without much movement.

It should be clear to any reasonably intelligent person that for a new Palestinian state to survive, let alone prosper, it will need excellent relations with Israel, so no one who is truly pro Palestinian and not merely anti Israeli would want the see the kind of abortion that the PA now proposes to ask the UN for.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdeSK1EHUQg&feature=related]YouTube - ‪30 sleepless Gaza Jerusalem.divx‬‏[/ame]

 

[docmauser1]

YouTube - 30 sleepless Gaza Jerusalem

Let'em 30 consult a sleep doctor.