Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

[Slash]

You pea brain can't grasp that crime is always higher in large cities.

Exactly. Regardless of gun law, concealed carry law. Like you say, it's OBVIOUS socio-economic issues are at the heart of this not gun proliferation. Glad for making that point so loudly here.

 

[PredFan]

The image that comes to mind is guys who might in one instance have solved their disagreement with fists now have guns. Is that a fair image or is it exaggerating?

Not really. Australia got a lot of props for reductions in violent crime when it put in it's draconian anti gun laws. Of course New Zealand in a very similar socioeconomic situation had the same exact violent crime reduction without any gun law changes.

Instead of punishing law abiding citizens for what criminals do, why not punish criminals harder, or work for social change that would reduce that threat.

I get your point. If we made it illegal in the USA to be gay or transexual, we would greatly reduce the criminal threats and acts against that group. They maybe suffer a little bit, but with thousands of attacks, I think it's for the better good right?

There sure are lots of examples of guns being used to settle disputes. We have a very high gun crime rate.

Which cannot be tied in any logical way to concealed carry.

 

[PredFan]

Are you really making the point that criminals doing criminal acts isn't the cause, but law abiding people being victims of criminals rather is?

Stop the criminal. Michael Jordan and Nike didn't cause kids to get robbed and shot. Criminals wanting his shoes did.

From the link:
The image that comes to mind is guys who might in one instance have solved their disagreement with fists now have guns. Is that a fair image or is it exaggerating?

Well, I think that there are many ways in which right-to-carry laws cause problems. One is as you said, and there are some obvious examples just in the last couple of weeks. In one case, a guy in Pennsylvania was merging in traffic and an 18-year-old girl cut in front of him and enraged him, and he just took out his gun, which he had a concealed-carry permit for, and shot her in the head and just drove off – killed her.

Then a couple of days later, in Seattle, a guy was riding home in an Uber from a wedding, and he had had too much to drink, and he and his wife got into a heated argument and he just took out a gun and shot her in the head. I suspect both of these cases would not have happened had the guy not had a concealed carry permit. There wouldn’t have been a gun around, and you know if you get really angry carrying a gun, it’s more likely something bad will happen.

But there are also so many other ways in which carrying concealed handguns creates problems. One huge way is that guns are much more likely to be stolen when you’re taking them around town and walking around. We see this quite a bit in California over the last couple of years. A number of incidents in San Francisco got a lot of headlines when somebody left their gun in their car – a permit holder – and somebody breaks into the car and steals the gun and within a day or so, or even a number of hours, murders someone on the street.

So the one thing we know is that permit holders do an amazing effectively job of arming criminals with their lost and stolen guns.

That obviously causes a lot of problems. And then, you also cause a lot of problems for police, and anything that causes problems for police tends to make all crime go up, because the police are such an important force in restraining crime.

We’ve seen this with the Philando Castile case in Minneapolis. The guy was a permit-holder and as soon as the cop heard he was carrying a gun, you could see that he became much more nervous and ended up shooting Castile, because he thought he was reaching for the gun when he was in fact reaching for his driver’s license.

So I don’t think it’s any surprise that police in the United States kill a lot more people than police in other industrialized nations -- not that they have fewer criminals than we have; there are just many fewer people walking around with guns, and police feel a lot more nervous when they’re meeting angry people with guns than they would in England or France or Germany or Japan, where they’re meeting angry people, but the worst that’s going to happen is they’re carrying a knife.

From the link! Lolololol!

 

[Soupnazi630]

According to a "novel algorithm" -- hmmmmmmmmmm.

This algorithm is made and up and used for one simple reason.

Violent crime decreased in every state which adopted liberal conceal carry laws in the aftermath of passing such laws.

As a result since the evidence shows the opposite of what the researcher wanted to find they had to dream up some highly complex way of inventing a new method of looking at it to arrive at a pre determined conclusion.

In other words total BS.

Concealed carry decreases violent crime and only a total fool thinks otherwise

According to a "novel algorithm" -- hmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Interesting study:

The way I try to frame it is, right-to-carry laws can increase crime, violent crime, by maybe 13 or 15% over a 10-year period. Some factors decrease crime, some factors increase crime. Increasing incarceration tends to push down crime, increasing police tends to push down crime, and allowing citizens to carry handguns tends to push up crime.

Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

Yeah, Vermont is a real war zone.........

 

[koshergrl]

Interesting study:

The way I try to frame it is, right-to-carry laws can increase crime, violent crime, by maybe 13 or 15% over a 10-year period. Some factors decrease crime, some factors increase crime. Increasing incarceration tends to push down crime, increasing police tends to push down crime, and allowing citizens to carry handguns tends to push up crime.

Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

Brain doing the LIE thing again.

"... states with open carry laws did have a 23 percent lower violent crime rate that year."

Is violent crime lower in states with open carry?


"The number of concealed carry handgun permits has skyrocketed since President Obama was first elected, while murder rates have fallen, according to a new report released Wednesday.

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

"And the number of permits issued is increasing faster every year. Over 1.7 million new permits were issued last year — a 15.4 percent increase over 2013, the largest such single-year jump ever, according to the report from the center led by President John R. Lott and research director John E. Whitley."
Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

From your link:

Our ruling

Gaetz said, "In the states that allow open carry, violent crime was 23 percent lower."

This is a fact that experts say is largely meaningless and shouldn’t weigh into any serious policy discussion.

There may be less crime in those states, but there’s no way the single data point Gaetz gave can provide clues as to the effects of open carry laws.

Gaetz’s statement is a one-year snapshot that is misleading. We rate it Half True.

Oh yeah, there are lots of excuses why the NUMBERS ARE WRONG.

But we all know the numbers are right, and numbers (unlike you) don't lie... and the blathering is just lies told by commie pigs like you. Who lie. I mean, that's all you're good for.

The "science" touters aren't really about science when the science and the numbers put the lie to them.

So the OP is correct.

Nope. You're a liar. You lied in the OP, and you're lying now when you say it's correct. You're also lying when you say that the information I have provided verifies your lying OP.

 

[Brain357]

Well I should specify. Most victims know their killer or are themselves criminals. Very, very few law abiding citizens are killed by a stranger.

Bull.

You don't follow crime statistics obviously.

Obviously you don't since the statistics prove that crime went down not up and that concealed carry States are safer then non concealed carry states.

Link?

Milwaukee and chicago got carry, how is that working?

You're a liar.

"
Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge
City sees fewer homicides, robberies, burglaries, car thefts as Illinois residents take arms"

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center."

Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

More than 750 people have been murdered in Chicago in 2016, the police said, a 58 percent increase over last year and the highest total since 1997. There have been more than 3,500 shootings in the city this year.

As Chicago Murder Rate Spikes, Many Fear Violence Has Become Normalized

 

[PredFan]

Interesting study:

The way I try to frame it is, right-to-carry laws can increase crime, violent crime, by maybe 13 or 15% over a 10-year period. Some factors decrease crime, some factors increase crime. Increasing incarceration tends to push down crime, increasing police tends to push down crime, and allowing citizens to carry handguns tends to push up crime.

Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

Brain doing the LIE thing again.

"... states with open carry laws did have a 23 percent lower violent crime rate that year."

Is violent crime lower in states with open carry?


"The number of concealed carry handgun permits has skyrocketed since President Obama was first elected, while murder rates have fallen, according to a new report released Wednesday.

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

"And the number of permits issued is increasing faster every year. Over 1.7 million new permits were issued last year — a 15.4 percent increase over 2013, the largest such single-year jump ever, according to the report from the center led by President John R. Lott and research director John E. Whitley."
Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

From your link:

Our ruling

Gaetz said, "In the states that allow open carry, violent crime was 23 percent lower."

This is a fact that experts say is largely meaningless and shouldn’t weigh into any serious policy discussion.

There may be less crime in those states, but there’s no way the single data point Gaetz gave can provide clues as to the effects of open carry laws.

Gaetz’s statement is a one-year snapshot that is misleading. We rate it Half True.

Interesting study:

The way I try to frame it is, right-to-carry laws can increase crime, violent crime, by maybe 13 or 15% over a 10-year period. Some factors decrease crime, some factors increase crime. Increasing incarceration tends to push down crime, increasing police tends to push down crime, and allowing citizens to carry handguns tends to push up crime.

Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

I have seen study after study that shows that crime goes down abruptly when concealed carry is instituted. So I wondered where the fuck you would find this bull shit and I only had to click on the link and there was the answer: a fake news site, the LA Times.

You will find all the studies claiming it goes down are done by the same person. And he's very questionable.

Not at all.

Then prove me wrong.

It has already been done. There are FBI studies, there are CDC studies and there are studies done by independent entities.

 

[Brain357]

You pea brain can't grasp that crime is always higher in large cities.

Exactly. Regardless of gun law, concealed carry law. Like you say, it's OBVIOUS socio-economic issues are at the heart of this not gun proliferation. Glad for making that point so loudly here.

The study is saying it makes it worse however.

 

[koshergrl]

Bull.

You don't follow crime statistics obviously.

Obviously you don't since the statistics prove that crime went down not up and that concealed carry States are safer then non concealed carry states.

Link?

Milwaukee and chicago got carry, how is that working?

You're a liar.

"
Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge
City sees fewer homicides, robberies, burglaries, car thefts as Illinois residents take arms"

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center."

Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

More than 750 people have been murdered in Chicago in 2016, the police said, a 58 percent increase over last year and the highest total since 1997. There have been more than 3,500 shootings in the city this year.

As Chicago Murder Rate Spikes, Many Fear Violence Has Become Normalized

Chicago's Murder Rate Hits 56-Year Low As Concealed Carry Permits Surge

- Chicago's Murder Rate Hits 56-Year Low As Concealed Carry Permits Surge

 

[Brain357]

Interesting study:

The way I try to frame it is, right-to-carry laws can increase crime, violent crime, by maybe 13 or 15% over a 10-year period. Some factors decrease crime, some factors increase crime. Increasing incarceration tends to push down crime, increasing police tends to push down crime, and allowing citizens to carry handguns tends to push up crime.

Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

Brain doing the LIE thing again.

"... states with open carry laws did have a 23 percent lower violent crime rate that year."

Is violent crime lower in states with open carry?


"The number of concealed carry handgun permits has skyrocketed since President Obama was first elected, while murder rates have fallen, according to a new report released Wednesday.

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center.

"And the number of permits issued is increasing faster every year. Over 1.7 million new permits were issued last year — a 15.4 percent increase over 2013, the largest such single-year jump ever, according to the report from the center led by President John R. Lott and research director John E. Whitley."
Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

From your link:

Our ruling

Gaetz said, "In the states that allow open carry, violent crime was 23 percent lower."

This is a fact that experts say is largely meaningless and shouldn’t weigh into any serious policy discussion.

There may be less crime in those states, but there’s no way the single data point Gaetz gave can provide clues as to the effects of open carry laws.

Gaetz’s statement is a one-year snapshot that is misleading. We rate it Half True.

Interesting study:

The way I try to frame it is, right-to-carry laws can increase crime, violent crime, by maybe 13 or 15% over a 10-year period. Some factors decrease crime, some factors increase crime. Increasing incarceration tends to push down crime, increasing police tends to push down crime, and allowing citizens to carry handguns tends to push up crime.

Does carrying a gun make you safer? No. In fact, right-to-carry laws increase violent crime

I have seen study after study that shows that crime goes down abruptly when concealed carry is instituted. So I wondered where the fuck you would find this bull shit and I only had to click on the link and there was the answer: a fake news site, the LA Times.

You will find all the studies claiming it goes down are done by the same person. And he's very questionable.

Not at all.

Then prove me wrong.

It has already been done. There are FBI studies, there are CDC studies and there are studies done by independent entities.

Please share.

 

[Brain357]

You don't follow crime statistics obviously.

Obviously you don't since the statistics prove that crime went down not up and that concealed carry States are safer then non concealed carry states.

Link?

Milwaukee and chicago got carry, how is that working?

You're a liar.

"
Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge
City sees fewer homicides, robberies, burglaries, car thefts as Illinois residents take arms"

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center."

Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

More than 750 people have been murdered in Chicago in 2016, the police said, a 58 percent increase over last year and the highest total since 1997. There have been more than 3,500 shootings in the city this year.

As Chicago Murder Rate Spikes, Many Fear Violence Has Become Normalized

Chicago's Murder Rate Hits 56-Year Low As Concealed Carry Permits Surge

- Chicago's Murder Rate Hits 56-Year Low As Concealed Carry Permits Surge

That is 2014. You are aware it's so bad trump wants to send in the troops? Try 2017.

 

[koshergrl]

IN CHICAGO, AS CONCEALED CARRY GOES UP, CRIME IS PLUMMETING

The Washington Times is reporting that robberies are down 20 percent, burglary is down 20 percent, motor vehicle theft is down 26 percent and homicides are at the lowest levels in 56 years.

Also, since the beginning of the year, Illinois began issuing concealed carry permits. There are almost 69,000 CCW holders in the state now, all of them fully-trained.

Coincidence? Of course not.

“It isn’t any coincidence crime rates started to go down when concealed carry was permitted. Just the idea that the criminals don’t know who’s armed and who isn’t has a deterrence effect,” said Richard Pearson, executive director of the Illinois State Rifle Association. “The police department hasn’t changed a single tactic — they haven’t announced a shift in policy or of course — and yet you have these incredible numbers.”



In Chicago, As Concealed Carry Goes Up, Crime Is Plummeting

 

[Kat]

So, what you want is for criminals to be able to carry weapons (because they will), and law abiding citizens not to, because they will obey the law. That makes good sense. Yup.

 

[Slash]

More than 750 people have been murdered in Chicago in 2016, the police said, a 58 percent increase over last year and the highest total since 1997. There have been more than 3,500 shootings in the city this year.

As Chicago Murder Rate Spikes, Many Fear Violence Has Become Normalized

So a 20 year high one year, a 56 year low another, all under the concealed carry law.

Shows me there is zero correlation there at best. Thanks for the proof bud.

So with that knowledge and the knowledge that some of the highest states in gun ownership have some of the lowest murder rates and vice versa...

How about we stop throwing money at this and instead focus on what other socio-economic issues may be causing violence. You know, things that actually trend WITH violence rather than things that are completely unrelated.

 

[koshergrl]

Obviously you don't since the statistics prove that crime went down not up and that concealed carry States are safer then non concealed carry states.

Link?

Milwaukee and chicago got carry, how is that working?

You're a liar.

"
Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry applications surge
City sees fewer homicides, robberies, burglaries, car thefts as Illinois residents take arms"

Chicago crime rate drops as concealed carry gun permit applications surge

"Since 2007, the number of concealed handgun permits has soared from 4.6 million to over 12.8 million, and murder rates have fallen from 5.6 killings per 100,000 people to just 4.2, about a 25 percent drop, according to the report from the Crime Prevention Research Center."

Murder rates drop as concealed carry permits soar: report

More than 750 people have been murdered in Chicago in 2016, the police said, a 58 percent increase over last year and the highest total since 1997. There have been more than 3,500 shootings in the city this year.

As Chicago Murder Rate Spikes, Many Fear Violence Has Become Normalized

Chicago's Murder Rate Hits 56-Year Low As Concealed Carry Permits Surge

- Chicago's Murder Rate Hits 56-Year Low As Concealed Carry Permits Surge

That is 2014. You are aware it's so bad trump wants to send in the troops? Try 2017.

It's always bad. But it's better than it would have been without CC.

 

[koshergrl]

"(As bad as 2016 is, the total number of murders will still be well below the over 900 annual murders in the early 1990s.)"

http://www.newsweek.com/2016/12/23/chicago-gangs-violence-murder-rate-532034.html

 

[Brain357]

As feds help Chicago on guns, Trump aide says city's crime more about 'morality'

"Crime and killings in Chicago have reached such epidemic proportions that I am sending in Federal help," he tweeted Friday morning.

Trump said there have been "1714 shootings in Chicago this year!" but the number is actually higher, according to data kept by the Tribune. As of Friday morning, the number of people shot in Chicago was at least 1,760, still lower than this time last year, when violence reached levels not seen in two decades.

 

[Slash]

But brain... Last question.. Do you favor the taking away of someones right to do something legal, if it helps reduce criminals acting out?

Do you favor making homosexuality an illegal act in the US since it would end the 80% higher rate of sexual violence and 60% higher rate of physical violence among that group?

 

[koshergrl]

As feds help Chicago on guns, Trump aide says city's crime more about 'morality'

"Crime and killings in Chicago have reached such epidemic proportions that I am sending in Federal help," he tweeted Friday morning.

Trump said there have been "1714 shootings in Chicago this year!" but the number is actually higher, according to data kept by the Tribune. As of Friday morning, the number of people shot in Chicago was at least 1,760, still lower than this time last year, when violence reached levels not seen in two decades.

Doesn't change the fact that allowing CC reduced crime. So while it is true that morality is definitely the problem, it is still true that CC has led to a huge reduction in crime.

But keep lying.