Does God Exist?

[Hollie]

The shepherd also slaughters his sheep

An example of why analogies, when taken too far, always fail. Biblical shepherd analogy centers around the shepherd caring for his sheep. That is the shepherd's role.

Who is the final arbiter deciding the breadth of analogies?

A child is bereft of a critical platform to make a valid choice, which is why they need caring for. Look at the terminology of the religion:

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

 

[BreezeWood]

The shepherd also slaughters his sheep

An example of why analogies, when taken too far, always fail. Biblical shepherd analogy centers around the shepherd caring for his sheep. That is the shepherd's role.

Who is the final arbiter deciding the breadth of analogies?

A child is bereft of a critical platform to make a valid choice, which is why they need caring for. Look at the terminology of the religion:

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

Sentient sheep? That’s an oxymoron, no?

.
it's not, all beings are sentient and equally destined - maybe (if there are any christians) they will be re-eaten in the Everlasting ... would the Everlasting be carnivorous, might be a consideration for another thread.

there are forgeries and fallacies on every page of the christian bible - that is not to say the underlying messages from antiquity and the truth of the 1st century, liberation theology is not discernible oddly though not by who have become christians - meriweather is a good example.

 

[alang1216]

Those of faith could trust in God's merciful judgement. Atheists would be judged by their own hears. (The underlying premise being that we are often harder on ourselves.)

Is this in conflict with John 14:6, Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"?

 

[Meriweather]

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Keep in mind, we are not speaking of an early professional pursuit here, but of faith. Even so:

As far as your thoughts about "rigidly question" Jesus did peripherally address this practice when groups of religious scholars got together (kind of like we do in religion forums to debate and question. Clearly, questioning and debating have a place, but it is--and should be--limited.

Would you urge budding scientists to sit in a classroom and rigidly question, or would you encourage them to go out and do their own exploring? Children are great example who do not want to sit around and shoot the breeze. They want to be out doing, they are very hands on. Notice, I am almost ad-nauseum about people going out and seeking God for themselves. Questions and anecdotal accounts aren't going to get anyone very far.

What I see from many atheists is, "Why should I go spend energy seeking?" which would be like a scientists saying, "Why should I go spend energy on lab experiments and investigating?" The answer to both these questions is, That is where discovery lies.

 

[Meriweather]

Is this in conflict with John 14:6, Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"?

In other words, no one comes to the Father except by the way of truth and the way of eternal life. That is the way Jesus lived and taught. He did not mean people had to literally walk through his flesh and bones to reach the Father. (Eternal life by the way is living by what is true, right and good.)

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The short answer: No. We're born, we live, we die. That's it. There is no intelligence controlling the universe.

Maybe, but there is zero evidence. Maybe unicorns exist, too.

 

[Blues Man]

The shepherd also slaughters his sheep

An example of why analogies, when taken too far, always fail. Biblical shepherd analogy centers around the shepherd caring for his sheep. That is the shepherd's role.

I disagree.

Religion makes too much money to say that.

 

[BreezeWood]

The short answer: No. We're born, we live, we die. That's it. There is no intelligence controlling the universe.

Maybe, but there is zero evidence. Maybe unicorns exist, too.

We're born, we live, we die.

Maybe, but there is zero evidence. Maybe unicorns exist, too.

.
maybe he could speculate from whence he came to be born ... just guessing, the same place where unicorns would be found if not extinct.

 

[Hollie]

Be as a child
Faith alone
Belief, and it shall be
I am the shepherd, you are like sheep…

Notice a theme there? Not once are we extolled: “Rigidly question, for I the LORD hath made thee with a brain, and thee hath the world before thee to explore.” No, instead its surrender the brain I gave you.

Keep in mind, we are not speaking of an early professional pursuit here, but of faith. Even so:

As far as your thoughts about "rigidly question" Jesus did peripherally address this practice when groups of religious scholars got together (kind of like we do in religion forums to debate and question. Clearly, questioning and debating have a place, but it is--and should be--limited.

Would you urge budding scientists to sit in a classroom and rigidly question, or would you encourage them to go out and do their own exploring? Children are great example who do not want to sit around and shoot the breeze. They want to be out doing, they are very hands on. Notice, I am almost ad-nauseum about people going out and seeking God for themselves. Questions and anecdotal accounts aren't going to get anyone very far.

What I see from many atheists is, "Why should I go spend energy seeking?" which would be like a scientists saying, "Why should I go spend energy on lab experiments and investigating?" The answer to both these questions is, That is where discovery lies.

I could never accept the notion that there should be limits placed on the questioning of beliefs or doctrines. If I correctly interpreted your comment, that seems to be what you are suggesting. If one is questioning their faith, it is sometimes considered that they are also losing their faith, not strengthening it. Remember that any system that doesn't allow self-criticism and/or questioning is a system that has something to hide.

Where, as humans, we have been endowed with powers of reasoning, dissecting, questioning, logical, deductive thought, what more invitation would man need to explore his surroundings? The sheep analogy works to actively discourage what might be described as a dangerous and subversive practice - thinking. That was certainly the case in Medieval Europe when the Church brutalized thinkers and explorers. That very act could, after all, usurp the authority of the religious elite who are the purveyors of knowledge - at least their particular interpretation and allotment of what is called knowledge.

The evidence has shown that as we explore, we comprehend more of the empirical data. Yes, we also learn there’s plenty we don’t know, but that’s part of the process. The road is long, but it’s also exciting – theists may happen to think the vehicle is unreliable. I think it’s pretty damned reliable.

 

[alang1216]

Is this in conflict with John 14:6, Jesus answered, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"?

In other words, no one comes to the Father except by the way of truth and the way of eternal life. That is the way Jesus lived and taught. He did not mean people had to literally walk through his flesh and bones to reach the Father. (Eternal life by the way is living by what is true, right and good.)

Your interpretation is as valid as anyone's but you must know there are nearly as many interpretations of this line as there are Christian sects.

 

[Meriweather]

Religion makes too much money to say that.

Which is why no one should buy a house--banks and mortgage companies make too much money to make it worthwhile to have a home.....wait.....

What the businesses are doing is always quite different than what the individual is doing. One working with the other should, in the long run, benefit both.

 

[Meriweather]

I could never accept the notion that there should be limits placed on the questioning of beliefs or doctrines. If I correctly interpreted your comment, that seems to be what you are suggesting.

Quite the opposite. Pose the question, then work out the answer. As with a math problem: Does your answer fit the problem? Does it make sense? Is it correct? As with math, it must be remembered that complex math problems can take pages--and days--to work out because not all math is simple addition and multiplication tables. Some math problems are not yet solved, despite years working on discovering the solution.

 

[Meriweather]

If one is questioning their faith, it is sometimes considered that they are also losing their faith, not strengthening it.

Doesn't matter what someone else thinks, but what the person who is asking the question is after. Some are after a reason not to bother with faith. Some are after expansion. Some are content with what they have. It is always a mistake to attempt to read someone's mind. And...it is also difficult to sometimes read one's own heart.

 

[Meriweather]

Remember that any system that doesn't allow self-criticism and/or questioning is a system that has something to hide.

Haven't had that problem in the Catholic faith. We have story after story after story of great Saints heartily disagreeing with one another.

 

[Hollie]

I could never accept the notion that there should be limits placed on the questioning of beliefs or doctrines. If I correctly interpreted your comment, that seems to be what you are suggesting.

Quite the opposite. Pose the question, then work out the answer. As with a math problem: Does your answer fit the problem? Does it make sense? Is it correct? As with math, it must be remembered that complex math problems can take pages--and days--to work out because not all math is simple addition and multiplication tables. Some math problems are not yet solved, despite years working on discovering the solution.

I have no way to apply math or logical questions to the supernatural. It’s correct that some math problems are unsolved but there’s nothing supernatural about math and no math clergy who are going to discourage anyone from attempting to solve the formulas.

 

[tycho1572]

The belief in a power greater than oneself is what matters.

 

[Hollie]

If one is questioning their faith, it is sometimes considered that they are also losing their faith, not strengthening it.

Doesn't matter what someone else thinks, but what the person who is asking the question is after. Some are after a reason not to bother with faith. Some are after expansion. Some are content with what they have. It is always a mistake to attempt to read someone's mind. And...it is also difficult to sometimes read one's own heart.

My heart pumps blood. For all the “feelings” we might attribute to the heart, we live in a Darwinian world, not a platonic one.

In terms of what people are after, lots of possibilities. Religion is often nothing more than a safety net for many people. They’re after a refuge from fear: fear of death, fear of living their lives, fear of a sometimes cold, hard life.

What’s wrong with asking, “ I want to know the truth, wherever it leads”?

 

[Meriweather]

That was certainly the case in Medieval Europe when the Church brutalized thinkers and explorers.

This is patently untrue. Most schools in those days were founded by the Church. Many scientists, thinkers, and explorers were of the Church or had a solid church background. Now...as with every age, every profession, every incident...there are the good and the bad. For example, take inquisitions. When studied as a whole we see where many people insisted on Church review because the State was being too harsh. Remember, in those days, there was no separation of the two. However, one Church person, in Spain, was so brutal that when the word Inquisition pops up today, his horrors are what are remembered. All the people who were satisfied with the mercy of the Church have long been forgotten.

Galileo is another example of people not knowing the full story. The basic argument between him and the Church is not whether the earth revolved around the sun, or vice-versa, Galileo was adamant that everything written in the Bible be rewritten to reflect the sun revolving around the earth be changed. The Church was fine with Galileo presenting his theory of the earth revolving around the sun, but they were not going to allow him to change what was written and read in the Bible.

This is why researching history is so much fun. In depth study is fascinating. We find, amidst all the horrors, good surviving as well, plus two sides (as well as many perspectives) to almost every story.

 

[Hollie]

Remember that any system that doesn't allow self-criticism and/or questioning is a system that has something to hide.

Haven't had that problem in the Catholic faith. We have story after story after story of great Saints heartily disagreeing with one another.

And then there’s the Dark Ages when people’s torsos were separated from their heads for disagreeing with the Church.

 

[Meriweather]

theists may happen to think the vehicle is unreliable

Broad brushing. Is it possible you are thinking of what is a minority percentage belief that everything in the Bible should be taken literally? The majority of Christians and Jews hold no such belief, yet it appears many atheists are of the mind all people of faith are literalists. Are you aware of when the big push for taking the Bible literally occurred? In the 1970s from the Evangelical community. Not being of that community, I ignored them, but I am seeing that many took them very, very seriously and decided they represented all of Christianity. They do not; they are just a small vocal part. While taking the Bible literally is obviously not for everyone, I still have no trouble with their beliefs as long as they keep it as part of their religious faith, not as part of their training in science and history. Too narrow.