Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

[Cecilie1200]

I'm well acquainted with the middle class. Been there for 54 years because my parents made the right choices and then I followed their example. I got an education, kept my nose clean, worked hard and moved to better jobs and pay over time.

Good. Congratulations.

The problem with this country, though, is that if the younger generation follows what you did through life, they will end up much lower than middle class. That trend needs to be reversed.

Pardon me, but that is pure and utter bullshit. If they follow what I did, they will succeed as much as they want to. My 18 year old college freshman son is following our example and is studying a specialized field where companies are waiting for the kids to graduate and paying them very well right out of college. My nephew who is a couple of years older has a garage band that plays weekend gigs for beer money, is a clerk in a retail store and drops out of the one or two classes he enrolls in.......but he's happy as a stoned clam at this stage in life. Ten years from now....not so much and he'll be one of the have nots bitching about the haves and saying it isn't "fair". Life is about choices and you will live by the choices you make.

My group of friends contains a lot of college students. I talk to them about their studies and watch how they live their lives. I know which ones ran down to Armory Park to join "Occupy Tucson" and which ones stayed home and carried on with their lives. And I know which ones I would bet money will go on to financial success, and which ones will be sitting around, still bitching about the same childish crap twenty years from now. Moreover, I'll bet all of YOU would be able to tell which is which, if you were honest about it.

The engineering student who did four years in the Army to pay for college
The girl majoring in film whose parents pay for her classes and part of her rent
The aspiring math teacher who cooks at a local pizza parlor to pay for classes and rides a bicycle everywhere
The women's studies major (Yes, I actually know one) who argues with me about "income disparity" and couldn't wait to run down to "Occupy Tucson"

I think you all get the idea.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

Now that you mention it, nobody has defined a 'living wage' have they. Mostly we are seeing complaints about those who make a lot more than we do and/or those who aren't getting compensated by as large a percentage as others and how unfair that is.

A few sub texts have suggested that minimum wage should be a 'living wage' and all employees should share equally in the prosperity of a company. Of course those same people probably think all citizens should share equally in the prosperity of a nation.

And the beat goes on. . . .

During our debate the other night I gave a living wage based on conditions in Fort Smith, AR. I was attacked, insulted, neg repped, pick one, it happened.

And now you all want to claim that no one has ever given an example?

Wow. Unreal.

Hye ..where did you get your Fort Smith , AR figures from....
I just looked up some sample salary and home price data.
For example....The average yearly salary for a retail sales associate in Fort Smith is about $19,000 per year with those in the 75th percentile of all retail associates in the $23k range...
The median price of a home in Fort Smith is around $70,000...
Here's the link......HomeFair.com: "Error"..
Oh, you must use Internet Explorer or Mozilla and have cookies enabled to view the site data.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

Also, when did the American Dream become about raising venture capital and starting your own business?

The American dream is achieving your ambitions through your own hard work. Clearly, that was HIS ambition.

What did you think it was, sitting on your ass and watching daytime TV while collecting a government check?

 

[thereisnospoon]

Rightwinger posted

"My sons friends are all recent college graduates and they ARE working jobs in childcare, bar tending and lawn maintenance

None are paying a living wage."
Hey rightwinger.....Boo freaking hoo hoo.

When one decides on which school they wish to attend, it is incumbent upon them and their parents to figure out what the child wants to do when he grows up AND pick a school that offers that particular major so that when said young skull full of creamed farina gets his or her degree, the sheepskin would then say to prospective employers "Hey I'm a college graduate with a marketable education. Please give me a chance to show you what I can do"..
No instead many college attendees do not decide what it is they wish to do after they get their degree and often it is some useless degree like a degree in Eastern Philosophy or that old industry standard "business administration".
DO you really think your sons should be paid more for their work that they are doing now? Why are they not attempting to acquire some marketable skills.
Here's how I think...When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Your landscaper son for example. If he likes what he is doing, he can go to the local community college and take all of their horticulture courses. He can even continue on and get a degree in turf management. Upon that he is instantly marketable as a golf course assistant superintendent with a potential to be the super. Those guys make tons of money. Some supers even in smaller metro areas like this one here make in excess of 50 to 60,000 per year.
The bartender....so why not take the initiative to latch on to the manager of the restaurant. Learn the food and beverage business from top to bottom. Learn to manage the inventory and how to purchase. First in the bar. That makes him eligible to become bar manager. He can learn the food end of it. With a college degree and some long hours, he can become the general manager and do quite well financially..
The childcare provider. I cannot think of but a few industries that are growing faster.
He or she could start learning the management end of the business. Then get some experience Take night courses on child psychology and teaching. She then could seek positions as a manager of a day care center. Inside the doors of a larger corporate chain there is great income potential...
Moral to the story....Once one gets their degree, the hard work has just begun....
There are always alternatives. No whining.

Paragraphs are your friend. Why do you hate them?

More whining...
Cut the shit.
I would imagine my post hit a raw nerve because you as a one of these "living wage" people have no actual rebuttal.
....Paragraph THIS!
Ya wanna get personal and do this shit, let's drop the mitts.
Or do you want to have a debate here. I can go wither way.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

Also, when did the American Dream become about raising venture capital and starting your own business?

The American dream is achieving your ambitions through your own hard work. Clearly, that was HIS ambition.

What did you think it was, sitting on your ass and watching daytime TV while collecting a government check?

don't be stupid's reply was just astounding..
"Also, when did the American Dream become about raising venture capital and starting your own business?"......

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

Yes, because today, all employers are retarded and unable to appreciate the value of hardworking, conscientious employees.

I would also like to note that there was no "generosity" involved. His employer didn't promote him to do him a favor or "provide him with a living wage". He did it to improve HIS OWN BUSINESS.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not so long ago, I was privileged to hear the story of a Vietnamese immigrant who came into the USA with little more than a sponsor and a job waiting for him. Shortly after his arrival, the sponsor was killed in an accident and the job disappeared with him. The only work the immigrant could find was picking vegetables on a local farm so that is what he did. It was at near starvation wages but he didn't care.

However, the foreman noticed that he took great care to pick only the ripe vegetables and was careful in how he handled them so as not to bruise them. He arrived early for work and stayed late and was highly productive. Before long he was promoted to foreman, a position at which he also excelled and eventually manager. By living frugally and saving every dime he could, he was able to acquire enough venture capital to start his own business. The business is in its third year and is thriving. He recently married and is expecting his first child.

I found myself wondering how many Americans would be willing to do what he did to achieve the American dream? But he is living proof that it is still possible to achieve it when you expect to do it all on merit and not be given anything.

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

In some cases I'm sure that happens. But in most cases, the employer is in business to make money and, if you can keep the unions and meddlers out of it, the productive employee is noticed and rewarded because he is making more money for his employer. Most of my life when working for the other guy, I have had bosses who appreciated and rewarded good work. I have been the boss and I definitely noticed, appreciated, and rewarded good work.

And I have worked for some assholes but never longer than I absolutely had to before I moved on to something else.

It has been my observation, however, that the business run by the asshole generally does not prosper as much as the business run by those who utilize good stewardship of their assets which would include hard working productive employees.

Actually, quite a few of the people running the local branch of the business I contract with ARE assholes. Doesn't mean they aren't still able to recognize and appreciate those who work hard and make them more money.

Several of my fellow couriers bitch about how little some deliveries pay (each client has a price schedule individually negotiated for them when they contract with the company) and refuse to do them. I'm the one who recognizes and understands that 1) the deliveries have to be made, regardless, 2) the dispatcher has no control over the prices, and 3) he's going to make an effort to make it up to me if I do the job without complaining. And he always does. When a slow day shows up, guess which driver gets all of the $15-20 "emergency" runs while the others sit and wait? The complainers get stuck with a $5 Salibas run out to Oro Valley, and that's all they get. When I get a $5 Salibas run to Oro Valley, I ALSO get three or four other deliveries on the way, and one coming back.

Believe me, hard work is still appreciated, and even by assholes.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

In some cases I'm sure that happens. But in most cases, the employer is in business to make money and, if you can keep the unions and meddlers out of it, the productive employee is noticed and rewarded because he is making more money for his employer. Most of my life when working for the other guy, I have had bosses who appreciated and rewarded good work. I have been the boss and I definitely noticed, appreciated, and rewarded good work.

And I have worked for some assholes but never longer than I absolutely had to before I moved on to something else.

It has been my observation, however, that the business run by the asshole generally does not prosper as much as the business run by those who utilize good stewardship of their assets which would include hard working productive employees.

No doubt there are market incentives for employers to treat employees fairly. And no doubt that gov't economic intervention rarely drastically improves things.

But I submit that its rougher for our generation this time than it ever was for Boomers. Jobs are harder to come by, the good ones require more education (which requires more debt), and the youth are quite cynical and pessimistic.

I guess that depends on how you define "the good ones". It's all in paying attention and researching what people want.

I live in Tucson. It's a retirement mecca, and always has been. Old geezers coming out of the woodwork. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that the growth field around here is medical anything.

Consequently, my daughter - who never wanted to be a "professional" anything, anyway - is studying to be a medical assistant, a trade-school-level job used by every medically-related business in the city. My brother, who has decided to get retraining for a new career, is studying to repair and maintain the machines and equipment used by diagnostic laboratories. It's also a trade-school job. Neither one of them went massively into debt for a college degree.

 

[initforme]

"The American dream is achieving your ambitions through your own hard work."

What a crock of trash this overused line is. The american dream is getting a job, making ends meet, and finding a little extra money for an ice cold beer now and then. Achieving your ambitions, all this rah rah rah bs is hilarious. Kids need to be taught what the real world is about. Getting an education, going deep in debt to get it. Then getting a job. Barely making ends meet. Hopefully living long enough to retire. Everyone wants to be rich. The reality is you are highly unlikely to become rich even if you work 5 jobs at a time. Hard work is good yes but we shouldnt be using this american dream crapola on our youth. It isnt realistic.

 

[Cecilie1200]

When you contract with your employer to do a job, hard work will almost always be rewarded IF it makes you more productive and adds value to your labor. I almost always do more than what my job description requires but that is just something built into my psyche. If doing more does not attract customers or improve my employer's bottom line, it won't be rewarded nor should it be.

Ok wait now, which is it? Will hard work be rewarded if it makes the employee more productive? Which is what you say in the first sentence. Or, will hard work only be rewarded if it improve's the employer's bottom line? Which is what you say in the last sentence.

You contradicted yourself.

My God, you are not only a fucking moron, you're PROUD of how big a fucking moron you are, because you actually think you're accomplishing something by arguing like a five-year-old.

I'm reading this conversation, and watching how you're deliberately misunderstanding everything said to you for no purpose whatsoever than to be annoying. I have come to the conclusion that you're either 15, or have never matured past that age, in which case you should just be shot.

FLUSH!

 

[Cecilie1200]

I had to work my way up, without a college degree, by making proper choices, learning, gaining experience, not buying everything I wanted, skipping meals, etc.

Here it is, folks. The conservative wing-nuts believe that the poor have an obligation to be poor and hungry.

The poor have an obligation to do what they have to to make their own lives better, rather than expecting someone else to do it for them. Life frequently sucks.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I bolded the part where he depended on the generosity and wisdom of his employer.

I'm skeptical that today the majority of people in such positions wouldn't be simply taken advantage of.

In some cases I'm sure that happens. But in most cases, the employer is in business to make money and, if you can keep the unions and meddlers out of it, the productive employee is noticed and rewarded because he is making more money for his employer. Most of my life when working for the other guy, I have had bosses who appreciated and rewarded good work. I have been the boss and I definitely noticed, appreciated, and rewarded good work.

And I have worked for some assholes but never longer than I absolutely had to before I moved on to something else.

It has been my observation, however, that the business run by the asshole generally does not prosper as much as the business run by those who utilize good stewardship of their assets which would include hard working productive employees.

Actually, quite a few of the people running the local branch of the business I contract with ARE assholes. Doesn't mean they aren't still able to recognize and appreciate those who work hard and make them more money.

Several of my fellow couriers bitch about how little some deliveries pay (each client has a price schedule individually negotiated for them when they contract with the company) and refuse to do them. I'm the one who recognizes and understands that 1) the deliveries have to be made, regardless, 2) the dispatcher has no control over the prices, and 3) he's going to make an effort to make it up to me if I do the job without complaining. And he always does. When a slow day shows up, guess which driver gets all of the $15-20 "emergency" runs while the others sit and wait? The complainers get stuck with a $5 Salibas run out to Oro Valley, and that's all they get. When I get a $5 Salibas run to Oro Valley, I ALSO get three or four other deliveries on the way, and one coming back.

Believe me, hard work is still appreciated, and even by assholes.

Ahh the courier business. Me too. 1984 and '85....Started at 5 bucks an hour.
I drove a company owned van. After a few months of making crap money, I saw that the contract guys were making more money. I went to the owner and told him that if he paid me per run with the company owned van, I'd produce twice as much as the contract guys.
I knew I had a leg up because I knew the contract drivers would blow off runs. I told him, I'd take these crap jobs. He went for it. I made three times the money. But it was real hectic. Most of it was cris crossing the NY Metro area. Wow! What a nightmare. But the money was good. I could have stuck around and been managing the place in a year or so.
But I hated the people that worked in the office and they disliked me. I guess because the owner and I were pretty tight. I made him some good money.
Oh well.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I'm gonna go make chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes, creamed gravy, and a nice salad and enjoy the opening game of the World Series. Later all.

Chicken fried? You must be poor. Which means you must be jealous of those who can afford NY strip.

Some people LIKE chicken-fried steak, moron. I have a box of frozen ribeye steaks in the freezer, but I'm having spaghetti for dinner tonight because that's what I was hungry for. Get a fucking grip.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It's clear that judging by their posts and total economic illiteracy, most Progressive should never be allowed anywhere near "the Real World"

On the contrary. Their delusional asses should all be DRAGGED, kicking and screaming, into the real world, so that they grow the fuck up and stop trying to impose their bizarre fantasies on the rest of us.

There is some truth to that, It would hep if the progressives had a better understanding as to how all of this works.
People who amass wealth typically earn it. I made bad choices in life as to who i would grow old with, that ended until recently mu chance to amass a large chunk of wealth
A living wage begins with living with-in your means. It ends with being trained to earn that wage
The progressive should know better than any-one as to the opportunistic opportunities the poor or one of the 7 protected races have from the federal govt to get that training

I don't actually care if they amassed it themselves or inherited it or won it in the lottery. As long as they didn't break the law, it's none of my frigging business what they did to get their money.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm gonna go make chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes, creamed gravy, and a nice salad and enjoy the opening game of the World Series. Later all.

Chicken fried? You must be poor. Which means you must be jealous of those who can afford NY strip.

Some people LIKE chicken-fried steak, moron. I have a box of frozen ribeye steaks in the freezer, but I'm having spaghetti for dinner tonight because that's what I was hungry for. Get a fucking grip.

LOL, I am married to a guy who will choose chicken fried steak over a NY strip six times out of seven.

And I would choose competent spaghetti and a great sauce over either.

I'm gonna give ITM benefit of the doubt that he was intending to be humorous there though.

The only comment I will make to his joke, however, is however much the left may be envious of and/or resent the 'rich', there are probably tens of millions of less fortunate who may or may not aspire to be rich some day, but do not begrudge the successful a single dime they have acquired.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The problem is not with those amassing great wealth.

The problem comes when those with great wealth use that wealth to influence elected officials to get things to go their way effectively rendering your and my vote virtually meaningless.

Well, then, your problem isn't with the people who assess the existing system and then work it to benefit themselves. Your problem is with the system itself, aka the elected officials and the government they work in. You think protesters like the OWS fools aren't working the exact same system from a different angle, ie. the crowd of noisy wheels get the grease?

 

[thereisnospoon]

I'm gonna go make chicken fried steak, mashed potatoes, creamed gravy, and a nice salad and enjoy the opening game of the World Series. Later all.

Chicken fried? You must be poor. Which means you must be jealous of those who can afford NY strip.

Some people LIKE chicken-fried steak, moron. I have a box of frozen ribeye steaks in the freezer, but I'm having spaghetti for dinner tonight because that's what I was hungry for. Get a fucking grip.

Ya see how these Lefties express themselves. Childish.

 

[Foxfyre]

The problem is not with those amassing great wealth.

The problem comes when those with great wealth use that wealth to influence elected officials to get things to go their way effectively rendering your and my vote virtually meaningless.

Well, then, your problem isn't with the people who assess the existing system and then work it to benefit themselves. Your problem is with the system itself, aka the elected officials and the government they work in. You think protesters like the OWS fools aren't working the exact same system from a different angle, ie. the crowd of noisy wheels get the grease?

Yup. If those we elect to high office could not be bought, then the wealthy wouldn't be able to buy influence would they?

Again I wonder how many of those who think the rich should be much less rich would settle for a system in which Congress wasn't allowed to dispense the people's money to ANYBODY unless they dispensed it equally to everybody? In other words, Congress would be prevented from giving out any form of charity or benevolence to anybody?

THAT would solve the problem. But somehow, I think those who resent the rich wouldn't go for it. What do you think?

 

[Cecilie1200]

The problem is not with those amassing great wealth.

The problem comes when those with great wealth use that wealth to influence elected officials to get things to go their way effectively rendering your and my vote virtually meaningless.

But there is no problem with those in mass who get something for nothing from the government influencing the government to get things to go their way and keep freebies flowing, effectively rendering the votes of actual contributors virtually meaningless???

The problem is solved in both cases by passing an iron clad law, preferably a constitutional amendment, making it illegal for Congress to use the people's money for ANY form of charity or benevolence to anybody except perhaps very short term immediate disaster aid.

I wonder how many of our friends here would agree to that.

The only way to take money out of politics is to make our politicians less valuable via the trillions of dollars of largesse they control and dispense.

 

[Foxfyre]

But there is no problem with those in mass who get something for nothing from the government influencing the government to get things to go their way and keep freebies flowing, effectively rendering the votes of actual contributors virtually meaningless???

The problem is solved in both cases by passing an iron clad law, preferably a constitutional amendment, making it illegal for Congress to use the people's money for ANY form of charity or benevolence to anybody except perhaps very short term immediate disaster aid.

I wonder how many of our friends here would agree to that.

The only way to take money out of politics is to make our politicians less valuable via the trillions of dollars of largesse they control and dispense.

I agree. But again, I don't think those who resent the rich would ever go for that very practical and obvious solution.