Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

[Cecilie1200]

Explain to us Libs, what is a living wage?

Simple. It is what you earn from working according to your skills and motivation. A living wage is not sitting at your mailbox waiting for the government check.

The American Way is being the best you can and profiting from it.

I keep hearing at these wall street rallies (which I am 100% against) that one of there demands is a living wage
That to me has nothing to do with my 401-k and what I do day trading, but it does interest me. The very reason I am not at home is that there is no 15.00 an hour jobs with-in 40 miles of my house except working in the prison system
with what I have saved 35-40,000 a year would do me fine. At my present status I could live on less
What I guess i am interested in is why does left scream for something like this and really never explain what it means and how they plan to get there

My case is simple, if we had a minimum wage of 15 an hour, I would be home, not 1000 miles from home finishing a refinery addition
I read here-in a minimum wage is not meant to be lived off-of?
I dis agree. you work, you should get paid enough to live. 400.00 a week?
600? I think that is the right number

Wages are not set according to what you need to live. They're set according to how valuable your work is. If you're not making enough to live, that's YOUR problem.

You work, you should get paid commensurate with what you do, and whether or not you could be replaced easily. Sorry, but that's how it goes.

Right now, I work as a courier. My job is to drive around town, picking things up in one place and dropping them off in another. That's it. It's not rocket science, and it doesn't pay like rocket science. Nor should it.

Does the logistics company I contract with care whether or not I can live on what I make? No, because if I don't like it, I can be easily replaced by anyone with a car. My fellow couriers and I might argue with them about what constitutes a reasonable rate for a delivery, but it's never based on, "But I'm not making enough money to pay my bills."

 

[Cecilie1200]

If minimum wage is something that you shouldn't be able to live on, then what are you supposed to do when the only job you have pays minimum wage? Getting a second job isn't exactly something you can quickly acquire in this economy.

Well that begs the question, why are you working a minimum wage job?

If someone is working a full time minimum wage job, they probably don't have a college degree.

So, at the very least, it would be reasonable to pay them enough that they could afford to work and go to college at the same time. We have grants that are available to help out with this, but unfortunately, there has been talk of ending them.

If that happens, we're going to have a lot more people on welfare than before.

WHY is that "reasonable"? Why is it my concern at all, if I'm their employer? Am I supposed to price myself out of business entirely worrying about how comfy my employees' lives are, regardless of how valuable the job they do is?

If you want to go to college, YOU figure out how to do it. Your employer is not your mother, and it's not his job to work out your life for you.

 

[Care4all]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

 

[DiamondDave]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

No.. believe me.. I know.. I was making a whopping 900 a month in the Army a while back... below the poverty line... living off post because the barracks was full, and only receiving a BAQ of $200 for rent on top of my pay... so basically living on $1100 a month with a child and a wife... so, do I think it is comfy or easy?? Nope.... do we have to do what we have to do?? Yep... Do I think I am owed more by government or society because it is hard?? No...

But then again, I would not settle for just remaining like that... I made the sacrifices that it seems too many others simply will not do... I worked 2 jobs when I got out and studied in my off time... I worked overnights.. I applied myself and went the extra mile to make myself a wanted commodity in my business of choice... I was prepared to live with the consequences of my choices if I failed, just as I was prepared to reap the benefits if I succeeded...

And it was all on me to make it happen.... I did not expect that a more comfortable living would be just handed to me because I did not do the extra needed to do it myself

 

[Care4all]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

No.. believe me.. I know.. I was making a whopping 900 a month in the Army a while back... below the poverty line... living off post because the barracks was full, and only receiving a BAQ of $200 for rent on top of my pay... so basically living on $1100 a month with a child and a wife... so, do I think it is comfy or easy?? Nope.... do we have to do what we have to do?? Yep... Do I think I am owed more by government or society because it is hard?? No...

But then again, I would not settle for just remaining like that... I made the sacrifices that it seems too many others simply will not do... I worked 2 jobs when I got out and studied in my off time... I worked overnights.. I applied myself and went the extra mile to make myself a wanted commodity in my business of choice... I was prepared to live with the consequences of my choices if I failed, just as I was prepared to reap the benefits if I succeeded...

And it was all on me to make it happen.... I did not expect that a more comfortable living would be just handed to me because I did not do the extra needed to do it myself

many people using social services, do not stay on them more than a few years, they too have worked their way up and changed their quality of living as well....

there are a handful that do not ever make it out of the social service game, but a good deal, if not the majority, work their way up, and out of it.

 

[Foxfyre]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

I think most of us understand that a 'living wage' is subjective. Some people already live well enough and really only want some 'mad' money or a little extra spending money or just something to do and don't need or expect a 'living wage' for the work they do. There is nothing at all wrong with jobs existing to accommodate folks like that.

A 'living wage' to me might mean something very different to you or somebody else. What IS a living wage? Does it include just food, clothing, shelter? Or does it also include television, a computer and internet service, health care, education, and imported kumquats that some people would consider necessities of life? Should a 'living wage' in rural Kansas be a different amount that somebody living on Manhattan east side?

But in pure economic terms, whatever a 'living wage' is, those who expect or need to earn it should also expect to pay their dues to merit it. And often that means educating yourself, putting in time on McJobs to acquire a work ethic, experience, references, and do what you have to do to acquire marketable skills to qualify for existing jobs.

Those who aren't willing to do that but expect to be provided the job they want in the place they want to live and be paid the salary they think they should have will very often be disappointed and wind up on message boards complaining about how unfair life is and how the government ought to fix it.

 

[Bern80]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

I don't think that's what people think. I think part of the problem is people don't know what it is. It is a vague, arbitrary term. It's going to be different depending on where you live and it's going to be different depending on your living situation. For those reasons alone, an employer can not base your compensation on what it costs you to live on. The only way the system works is to base it on your value to the employer.

 

[thereisnospoon]

A VP makes $100K and her assistant makes $50K annually. The VP makes 100% more than the assistant, but everyone agrees that's fair based on job duties and skill sets.

Both employees work their asses off all year and the VP fully agrees she could not have done her job as well without her assistant. Raises come around. The VP gets 10% and the assistant gets a cost of living 3%.

Next year, same thing. Year after that, same thing. Now, the VP is making $133K and the assistant is making $54.6K. The VP is now making 144% of what the assistant is making.

Is that what the assistant agreed to? Is the company being fair to that employee? Is this a good way to retain a hard working employee? To build company morale?

But anyway, I'm sure you're right. I'm sure I never worked in HR.

Bullshit




More billshit

Still more bullshit




Yes, let's.

My Wife is an AVP at a larger bank. She does not receive 10% raises. IN fact, NO ONE in her company gets raises that large. So that pretty much squashes your scenario right there.

Yeah if you're stupid enough to think that WILLY MAYS describes the reality of all Black people, maybe.

We're talking about the MACRO ECNOMY and you give us what in response?

Some happy horseshit story about some gal you know who did well?


Do TRY to imagine that we are discussing the NATIONAL STATISTICAL REALITY here, and not you're wife's experience.

Quote:
See here's the rub. You people look upon wage increases as an entitlement.
Bullshit

Quote:
Your idea of "fair" is based on your wish to institute a system where there is equality of outcome.

More billshit...Really? Have you read the musings of your fellow libs in here. They all believe in equality of outcome in one form or another. Don't screw yourself by implying I must prove a negative

Quote:
That type of system is incompatible with freedom and liberty.
Still more bullshit.....Ok, genius. since you say equality of outcome is NOT the goal of the left, then how can the above be bullshit? You just contradicted yourself. Are you really that needy?

Quote:
Let's be realistic here.

Yes, let's.

Quote:
My Wife is an AVP at a larger bank. She does not receive 10% raises. IN fact, NO ONE in her company gets raises that large. So that pretty much squashes your scenario right there.

Yeah if you're stupid enough to think that WILLY MAYS describes the reality of all Black people, maybe.

We're talking about the MACRO ECNOMY and you give us what in response?

Some happy horseshit story about some gal you know who did well?
I gave you a real world example. Take caution in your tone mister. You're on the verge of disrespect. "Some gal"....


Do TRY to imagine that we are discussing the NATIONAL STATISTICAL REALITY here, and not you're wife's experience.
I am warning you right now. Do not make this personal.
I obviously hit a nerve with you because the tone of your response has anger all over it.
Be careful.

 

[kwc57]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

 

[DiamondDave]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

No.. believe me.. I know.. I was making a whopping 900 a month in the Army a while back... below the poverty line... living off post because the barracks was full, and only receiving a BAQ of $200 for rent on top of my pay... so basically living on $1100 a month with a child and a wife... so, do I think it is comfy or easy?? Nope.... do we have to do what we have to do?? Yep... Do I think I am owed more by government or society because it is hard?? No...

But then again, I would not settle for just remaining like that... I made the sacrifices that it seems too many others simply will not do... I worked 2 jobs when I got out and studied in my off time... I worked overnights.. I applied myself and went the extra mile to make myself a wanted commodity in my business of choice... I was prepared to live with the consequences of my choices if I failed, just as I was prepared to reap the benefits if I succeeded...

And it was all on me to make it happen.... I did not expect that a more comfortable living would be just handed to me because I did not do the extra needed to do it myself

many people using social services, do not stay on them more than a few years, they too have worked their way up and changed their quality of living as well....

there are a handful that do not ever make it out of the social service game, but a good deal, if not the majority, work their way up, and out of it.

And we have the freedom to succeed that goes hand in hand with the freedom to fail... what we do not and should not have is the freedom to take from others or government because we do fail or because succeeding is 'hard'

I have said many times I believe in helping others.. of our own free will and in a way that calls to us.. but I also believe that others have the freedom to not help if they are not personally called to do so... I do not believe any of us are owed it, nor do I believe anyone should be forced to provide it... Do I agree with those who do not help their fellow man? No... But that is something personal for all of us. And I believe in our personal freedoms, whether or not others agree with them

 

[Foxfyre]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

Now that you mention it, nobody has defined a 'living wage' have they. Mostly we are seeing complaints about those who make a lot more than we do and/or those who aren't getting compensated by as large a percentage as others and how unfair that is.

A few sub texts have suggested that minimum wage should be a 'living wage' and all employees should share equally in the prosperity of a company. Of course those same people probably think all citizens should share equally in the prosperity of a nation.

And the beat goes on. . . .

 

[Care4all]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

well, i posted a definition of a living wage early on in this thread....so it ain't me that has not defined it!

 

[kwc57]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

No.. believe me.. I know.. I was making a whopping 900 a month in the Army a while back... below the poverty line... living off post because the barracks was full, and only receiving a BAQ of $200 for rent on top of my pay... so basically living on $1100 a month with a child and a wife... so, do I think it is comfy or easy?? Nope.... do we have to do what we have to do?? Yep... Do I think I am owed more by government or society because it is hard?? No...

But then again, I would not settle for just remaining like that... I made the sacrifices that it seems too many others simply will not do... I worked 2 jobs when I got out and studied in my off time... I worked overnights.. I applied myself and went the extra mile to make myself a wanted commodity in my business of choice... I was prepared to live with the consequences of my choices if I failed, just as I was prepared to reap the benefits if I succeeded...

And it was all on me to make it happen.... I did not expect that a more comfortable living would be just handed to me because I did not do the extra needed to do it myself

many people using social services, do not stay on them more than a few years, they too have worked their way up and changed their quality of living as well....

there are a handful that do not ever make it out of the social service game, but a good deal, if not the majority, work their way up, and out of it.

We have folks who are 4th generation welfare recipients and I think there are more than a handful.

 

[JRK]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

well, i posted a definition of a living wage early on in this thread....so it ain't me that has not defined it!

was that in a dollar figure?
I stated (think) 12.50 an hour minimum
40 hours

 

[thereisnospoon]

So life is not fair, but the wages are always fair, without a doubt, unquestionably, as sure as the sky is blue? Oh, and Jesus rose again, right?



Wait, you said pretty much anyone could do it. Now you're saying only some people will be good at it. Which is it? I think you're a bit lost in this tangled mess of a hole you're trying to dig yourself out of.



Okay, so you're saying that simply choosing to go to college makes it happen? That, of course, could be true if your theory of education being free in this country were true. But college costs money. What is a person to do if they don't have the money for college? No amount of "choice" will change the fact that they cannot afford the expense. Maybe you just need to learn to count your blessings and be a little more humble, instead of thinking that you are such hot shit that you can simply will anything into reality you want. You're not God, you know.



Nobody is bitching about people who have more money. We're discussing here how our society has taken turns and is making choices that to not encourage the greater good or general prosperity, or a structurally sound society or economy.



Oh, bummer. I guess the self righteousness simply boiled over before I could get you to turn down the heat. What you're basically saying is that your choices (neglecting your good fortune to have had the means to pursue them in the first place) make you worth a livable income for your work. But other people are not worth a livable income. That you are more deserving of fancy house decorations than they are of providing the bare necessities for their families. That the people who hired you are more deserving of a yacht than the poor are deserving of full meals. I have to say, it's pretty disgusting that you would engage in such class warfare like that.



Actually, no, it's not possible for anyone to have a decent life. Your theories here NECESSITATE that a certain section of our society remain impoverished, as if they have some kind of moral obligation to remain so, so that you can remain well above such conditions, and so that the mega wealthy can remain mega wealthy. Your approach can only be sustained by demanding people simply accept their poverty, as if it were a religious or patriotic duty. That is sick.



Yeah, that's why the vast majority of non-college-educated people make significantly less money than the college educated.



Really? How? Please enlighten the rest of the world.



I'm sorry, did I miss the global exodus where everyone moved to OK? Also, this contradicts what you said a moment ago. You said that the students could get a free education based on choices. You didn't say that they had to DEPEND on someone else's choices.



1) Either provide evidence that this is what happens, otherwise do not repeat the claim again.

2) You just said that the student must depend on their parent's choice to get signed up for the program. Now you're claiming that it's the student's choice. You must choose one or the other, but you cannot have both. Make a choice.

3) You have yet to explain how this singular state program does anything for the rest of the country where we supposedly have free education.



I'll agree to a certain extent. It's kinda like poker. It's not always fair. Sometimes it rewards the person who did wrong and punishes the person who did right. It's all about choices. But in poker, just like in life, you have to have the money first before the choice is even an available option.



You're right. Either you can or you can't. It's not true that everyone can, because not everyone has the means to do it. Many people may choose to do it but not have the funding. You continue to choose to ignore that fact.



This is a contradiction. If they don't owe me anything, they aren't going to pay me anything commiserate with my skills, experience, or ability. They are going to pay me as little as they can get away with regardless of my skill, experience, or ability so that they can retain as large a portion of the pie for themselves as they possibly can. They will, in fact, pay me so low that I cannot afford to adequately feed and clothe myself. They will, in fact, turn around and object to my appearance at work, and demand that I adequately feed and clothe myself, all while continuing to refuse to pay me a living wage. They will be the Jim Taggert who demands production without allowing for the means to produce.



If you were to insert "money" after each "more" I'll agree with you. But that's about it.

No...Life isn't fair. Deal with it. If a person is unskilled they will be paid accordingly and appropriately.
Anyone may be creative and start a business. The question is are they capable?
This nation is one of the few on the planet where everyone has the opportunity to be the best they can and to reach their full potential.
"What happens if"....This is the line you libs use as the basis for every social program in existence today. You people assume that all people are capable of going down the tubes. You look upon people as helpless. So you petition government to further your notion of compassion then petition government to dispense your compassion the way you see fit. The Left's compassion invariably begins with other people's money.
Non one owed anything. Having access to higher education is not a right. However, there are literally billions of dollars in loans and grants( mostly to the poor and lower class earners) for college. The problem is most of the whiners are too lazy to get off their ass and go get it.
No YOU ARE discussing that. When I see terms like "common or greater good" I cringe.
That is Marxism.. "From each according to his means, to each according to his needs"...Collectivism. That taking of assets and wealth by government to provide for the masses.
Yiu people have convinced yourselves ,with the help of the main stream media and the Obama regime that if one person has more wealth then by definition another MUST have less. That is of course idiotic. But you people in your seething misery have class envy on your minds 24/7. It is the pinnacle of greed to want the results of the work of others handed to you via threat of government sanctions.
You people use terms such as "the good fortune" so inaccurately. You comprehend skill, hard work and ambition turned into a comfortable life as "winning the lottery of life". That is crap. That idea is built straight out of the jealousy manual. You Lefties believe it just isn't fair that some people get to live in larger homes than others or whatever. At the end of the day though, your message is not "let's lift those at the bottom". It is let's punish those at the top because we believe they have caused there to be a bottom". Don't deny it because that is how your lib/progressive minds work. We hear it/read it all the time from the Left.
"Actually, no, it's not possible for anyone to have a decent life. Your theories here NECESSITATE that a certain section of our society remain impoverished, as if they have some kind of moral obligation to remain so, so that you can remain well above such conditions, and so that the mega wealthy can remain mega wealthy. Your approach can only be sustained by demanding people simply accept their poverty, as if it were a religious or patriotic duty. That is sick."
That is utter bullshit. The truth is anyone can have a decent life in this country. Some just have to work at it in different ways or harder than others. The bottom line is the more successful do not owe the less successful anything just because they are less successful.
That is a concept you people on the left cannot grasp.
As for the rest of your quote, it is based on a false premise. The existence of the zero sum game

Meh, I spent an hour replying to your post when I lost power and lost my work. I haven't the energy to start over again, so I'll say the two most important things.

First: Your entire argument is rife with straw men. You're arguing against things that I never said.

Second (and most important): I am not a "lefty," a Democrat, a liberal, or any similar thing. I am an independent and a centrist. And in fact, I fall right of center on more things that I do left of center. I support strong immigration laws and enforcement, establishing English as the national language, I reject amnesty for current illegals, I support individual gun ownership rights, I oppose Obama's health care bill, I support more governance at the state level than the federal level, I am very much hoping for a quality candidate to be presented to unseat Obama from office (I'm circling Romney and Cain), I am against government intrusion into people's personal lives, and I am against affirmative action measures. If you somehow think that all of this puts me on the left simply because I don't agree with you on a singular issue (one that you've failed to address in the first place) then do not bother ever directing a comment at me again because that would have to mean that you're such a radical extremist that you're on par with Osama bin Laden. If you insist on calling me a liberal, lefty, whatever again, you'll join my ignore list.

You're not a centrist when you espouse liberal or progressive viewpoints.
You have posted your conservative agenda here for the first time.
OK, You must be a "centrist" because you people think everyone is extreme.
Your ignore list? Boo fucking hoo hoo....I suppose you'll GASP!!!!! Neg rep me too? I am crushed.
Hey, douche bag, put me on ignore.
"Je ne donne pas une merde"
"seru na to "

 

[Care4all]

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

well, i posted a definition of a living wage early on in this thread....so it ain't me that has not defined it!

was that in a dollar figure?
I stated (think) 12.50 an hour minimum
40 hours

no, it wasn't a dollar figure....i don't think one figure could give an accurate figure that would cover the usa fairly.....i think this is a local issue, and localities themselves could or would be better judges on the amount it would take for a full time worker to make the minimum needed to provide just the basics for oneself in their localities....

i am not even certain if i agree with localities that institute a living wage...i haven't made up my mind yet, on the issue...but i do know what it means....and it certainly will not be a comfy living, even if localities institute it....

 

[kwc57]

i guess people seem to think a living wage is all nice and comfy????

Not at all. We just want the folks who keep asking for it, to define it.....just like "fair share". If you are going to use the terms and demand those things, you need to be able to define it. Otherwise you are like a toddler pointing and grunting wanting your mommy to figure out what you want.

well, i posted a definition of a living wage early on in this thread....so it ain't me that has not defined it!

Kind of. It was more of a statement than a definition. What your link does not address is the job being done for this living wage. Is it any job? Is it the school crossing guard? Is it the sanitation worker? Is it the bagger at the gorcery store? Is it for folks under 18 or over 18? What your "definition" said more than anything is that a living wage is a concept based on many variables. Defining a living wage or a fair share is kind of like love or pornograpy, each individual knows it when they see it. Trying to put a national standard on it isn't all that easy.

 

[JRK]

well, i posted a definition of a living wage early on in this thread....so it ain't me that has not defined it!

was that in a dollar figure?
I stated (think) 12.50 an hour minimum
40 hours

no, it wasn't a dollar figure....i don't think one figure could give an accurate figure that would cover the usa fairly.....i think this is a local issue, and localities themselves could or would be better judges on the amount it would take for a full time worker to make the minimum needed to provide just the basics for oneself in their localities....

i am not even certain if i agree with localities that institute a living wage...i haven't made up my mind yet, on the issue...but i do know what it means....and it certainly will not be a comfy living, even if localities institute it....

It is a local issue, i agree 100% there, and i was using my home town as well as health ins being partially provided by the employer, so in reality its closer to 13.25 to 13.50 an hour

you could "survive" with allot less
10% in savings
vehicle
500.00 a month apt

2100 a month on a 4 week month
200 savings
200 9% IRS with 9-9-9
500 apt
400 food

leaves 150 a week in fuel oil maint... etc...ins on car

tight

 

[kwc57]

was that in a dollar figure?
I stated (think) 12.50 an hour minimum
40 hours

no, it wasn't a dollar figure....i don't think one figure could give an accurate figure that would cover the usa fairly.....i think this is a local issue, and localities themselves could or would be better judges on the amount it would take for a full time worker to make the minimum needed to provide just the basics for oneself in their localities....

i am not even certain if i agree with localities that institute a living wage...i haven't made up my mind yet, on the issue...but i do know what it means....and it certainly will not be a comfy living, even if localities institute it....

It is a local issue, i agree 100% there, and i was using my home town as well as health ins being partially provided by the employer, so in reality its closer to 13.25 to 13.50 an hour

you could "survive" with allot less
10% in savings
vehicle
500.00 a month apt

2100 a month on a 4 week month
200 savings
200 9% IRS with 9-9-9
500 apt
400 food

leaves 150 a week in fuel oil maint... etc...ins on car

tight

But who qualifies for this living wage? Does any company that employees people have to pay it. Is it only for full time employment or part time employment? Does it apply to 16 year olds or does it apply to someone with a spouse and/or children only?

 

[JRK]

no, it wasn't a dollar figure....i don't think one figure could give an accurate figure that would cover the usa fairly.....i think this is a local issue, and localities themselves could or would be better judges on the amount it would take for a full time worker to make the minimum needed to provide just the basics for oneself in their localities....

i am not even certain if i agree with localities that institute a living wage...i haven't made up my mind yet, on the issue...but i do know what it means....and it certainly will not be a comfy living, even if localities institute it....

It is a local issue, i agree 100% there, and i was using my home town as well as health ins being partially provided by the employer, so in reality its closer to 13.25 to 13.50 an hour

you could "survive" with allot less
10% in savings
vehicle
500.00 a month apt

2100 a month on a 4 week month
200 savings
200 9% IRS with 9-9-9
500 apt
400 food

leaves 150 a week in fuel oil maint... etc...ins on car

tight

But who qualifies for this living wage? Does any company that employees people have to pay it. Is it only for full time employment or part time employment? Does it apply to 16 year olds or does it apply to someone with a spouse and/or children only?

good question, for every-one is the answer

Look the cost gets a pass thru
when I estimate work we have a bare rate as well as a all-in rate
all we would do is up that bare rate, same would be for Exxon, Subway, etc....