Zone1 Focusing the LGBTQ debate

[forkup]

After a few months absence I finally feel motivated/masochistic enough to post again on this board. I have decided however for my own sanity to clearly state what I hope to achieve here and how I will go about achieving this.

My goal is to have an honest, good faith debate with people who disagree with me.

In order to achieve this I will try my utmost of not following those that are not interested in the slightest to do the same, down every rabbit hole.

I wanted to preface the OP with this.


Now for the actual meat of the OP.

In order to focus the debate I think it's important to clearly define the terms sex and gender. Since they are often conflated, purposefully by some, but most often out of ignorance by those that listen to those "some".

Sex are the biological traits that are used to define gender. Gender is the social construct with which peoples identity is defined.

This is a distinction that is at the heart of the discussion in my opinion, and one that is denied to exist at all, by those on the right.
It's the common trope. "Leftist can't tell you what a man or woman is." The implication of course being that the distinction is so clear that it's ridiculous to not be able to define a gender clearly.

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female? I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

This brings me to the social aspect of the question. I've yet to see any rational reason for opposing/hating the trans community that doesn't boil down to the argument that since they feel harmed (using that term very broadly) by the way people define THEMSELVES, therefore any harm (again used broadly) I cause them is justified.

So this is my second question. Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?



Questions are encouraged and will be answered without deflection providing those that choose to respond engage with the 2 questions I just posed. I hope this OP to be a 2-way street of people actually talking TOO each other instead of past one another

 

[toobfreak]

Focusing the LGBTQ debate​

There is no LGBTQ debate.

In order to focus the debate I think it's important to clearly define the terms sex and gender. Since they are often conflated, purposefully by some, but most often out of ignorance by those that listen to those "some". Sex are the biological traits that are used to define gender. Gender is the social construct with which peoples identity is defined.

Wrong. Sex and gender have always meant the same thing. I spent my life filling out government and employer forms where asked what my sex/gender was. It was not until a few years ago that the misanthropic left started trying to break them up, just as they did with marriage. If anything, sex merely referred to the physically genetic bent a person was, while gender took in the entire thing, to include genetics, physical properties, as well as psychological predisposition.

Kinda funny how for years it was argued that there was no difference between the sexes, now the Left argues that there is all the difference in the world.

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female?

Really? You need told that?

I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

A hermaphrodyte is born with a physical anomaly, but genetically, one is still either male or female. There is only the XX and XY chromosomes.

This brings me to the social aspect of the question. I've yet to see any rational reason for opposing/hating the trans community that doesn't boil down to the argument that since they feel harmed (using that term very broadly) by the way people define THEMSELVES, therefore any harm (again used broadly) I cause them is justified.

The problem with the LGBTQ community is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, beyond their own verbal claims, as to what they are inside. There is no medical test for gender dysphoria. As such, it falls into the realm of a sociopathic disorder, plain and simple.

So this is my second question. Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?

Huh? Legally, it has always been given that your rights end where they infringe on others, but that is not germane to the discussion unless you are trying to wrongly claim that a person has an uninfringable right to be mentally ill.

 

[Votto]

After a few months absence I finally feel motivated/masochistic enough to post again on this board. I have decided however for my own sanity to clearly state what I hope to achieve here and how I will go about achieving this.

My goal is to have an honest, good faith debate with people who disagree with me.

In order to achieve this I will try my utmost of not following those that are not interested in the slightest to do the same, down every rabbit hole.

I wanted to preface the OP with this.


Now for the actual meat of the OP.

In order to focus the debate I think it's important to clearly define the terms sex and gender. Since they are often conflated, purposefully by some, but most often out of ignorance by those that listen to those "some".

Sex are the biological traits that are used to define gender. Gender is the social construct with which peoples identity is defined.

This is a distinction that is at the heart of the discussion in my opinion, and one that is denied to exist at all, by those on the right.
It's the common trope. "Leftist can't tell you what a man or woman is." The implication of course being that the distinction is so clear that it's ridiculous to not be able to define a gender clearly.

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female? I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

This brings me to the social aspect of the question. I've yet to see any rational reason for opposing/hating the trans community that doesn't boil down to the argument that since they feel harmed (using that term very broadly) by the way people define THEMSELVES, therefore any harm (again used broadly) I cause them is justified.

So this is my second question. Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?



Questions are encouraged and will be answered without deflection providing those that choose to respond engage with the 2 questions I just posed. I hope this OP to be a 2-way street of people actually talking TOO each other instead of past one another

Gender dysphoria is akin to an anorexic thinking they are too fat, no matter how skinny they become.

So, they continue to starve themselves until they die.

But medicine is basically clueless on how to treat peoples mental disorders. They would much rather cut and medicate you for something, even if it is detrimental to you

Case in point is the practice of lobotomies. It used to be cutting edge treatment for people who were not easily controlled with mental problems. Thankfully, however, today it is viewed as barbaric and not practiced. It shows you exactly how sick and twisted and wrong the accepted general medical community can become and should give us pause as to what is happening with gender dysphoria today.

I have more issues with the medical community, such as their treatment of obesity. They go in and surgically make the stomach smaller, so you will eat less. Well guess what, there is nothing wrong with their stomach, it is all in their brain. To me surgically altering anatomy that is not dysfunctional is an issue, but again, they are clueless to do anything else.

 

[forkup]

Really? You need told that?

Yes I do.

There is only the XX and XY chromosomes.

Really? Someone with Swyer syndrome has the XY chromosome including a working uterus. So you think men can be pregnant?

Someone with De La Chapelle syndrome has all the characteristics of a male minus being able to produce sperm. Yet they have the XX Chromosomes.

There are also people who have xyy chromosomes. How do we call those?

So any other characteristics. Since this seems inadequate?

The problem with the LGBTQ community is that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, beyond their own verbal claims, as to what they are inside. There is no medical test for gender dysphoria. As such, it falls into the realm of a sociopathic disorder, plain and simple.

If biologically it's hard determine male from female. Letting a person define it for themselves seems as good a way as any and way better than letting a government do so.

that is not germane to the discussion unless you are trying to wrongly claim that a person has an uninfringable right to be mentally ill.

Defining yourself is not a mental illness. The problem seems to be that you don't agree with their definition. This is fine, if you are able to clearly deliniate male from female. Otherwise you are just using an arbitrary standard that fits your viewpoint that you then use to infringe on the rights of others.

 

[forkup]

Gender dysphoria is akin to an anorexic thinking they are too fat, no matter how skinny they become.

So, they continue to starve themselves until they die.

But medicine is basically clueless on how to treat peoples mental disorders. They would much rather cut and medicate you for something, even if it is detrimental to you

Case in point is the practice of lobotomies. It used to be cutting edge treatment for people who were not easily controlled with mental problems. Thankfully, however, today it is viewed as barbaric and not practiced. It shows you exactly how sick and twisted and wrong the accepted general medical community can become and should give us pause as to what is happening with gender dysphoria today.

I have more issues with the medical community, such as their treatment of obesity. They go in and surgically make the stomach smaller, so you will eat less. Well guess what, there is nothing wrong with their stomach, it is all in their brain. To me surgically altering anatomy that is not dysfunctional is an issue, but again, they are clueless to do anything else.

Please engage my questions. As I said I'm not interested in following people down whatever rabbit hole.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Please engage my questions. As I said I'm not interested in following people down whatever rabbit hole.

You want a debate, but strictly using your terms and definitions?

That shuts down, rather than encouraging, debate.

Gender dysphoria is akin to an anorexic thinking they are too fat, no matter how skinny they become.

So, they continue to starve themselves until they die.

But medicine is basically clueless on how to treat peoples mental disorders. They would much rather cut and medicate you for something, even if it is detrimental to you

Case in point is the practice of lobotomies. It used to be cutting edge treatment for people who were not easily controlled with mental problems. Thankfully, however, today it is viewed as barbaric and not practiced. It shows you exactly how sick and twisted and wrong the accepted general medical community can become and should give us pause as to what is happening with gender dysphoria today.

I have more issues with the medical community, such as their treatment of obesity. They go in and surgically make the stomach smaller, so you will eat less. Well guess what, there is nothing wrong with their stomach, it is all in their brain. To me surgically altering anatomy that is not dysfunctional is an issue, but again, they are clueless to do anything else.

You make very good points about medicine and mental illness.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Medicines only tools are chemicals and blades, so that is their answer to everything.

Honest counseling is needed by people confused about their sexuality.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

After a few months absence I finally feel motivated/masochistic enough to post again on this board. I have decided however for my own sanity to clearly state what I hope to achieve here and how I will go about achieving this.

My goal is to have an honest, good faith debate with people who disagree with me.

In order to achieve this I will try my utmost of not following those that are not interested in the slightest to do the same, down every rabbit hole.

I wanted to preface the OP with this.


Now for the actual meat of the OP.

In order to focus the debate I think it's important to clearly define the terms sex and gender. Since they are often conflated, purposefully by some, but most often out of ignorance by those that listen to those "some".

Sex are the biological traits that are used to define gender. Gender is the social construct with which peoples identity is defined.

This is a distinction that is at the heart of the discussion in my opinion, and one that is denied to exist at all, by those on the right.
It's the common trope. "Leftist can't tell you what a man or woman is." The implication of course being that the distinction is so clear that it's ridiculous to not be able to define a gender clearly.

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female? I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

This brings me to the social aspect of the question. I've yet to see any rational reason for opposing/hating the trans community that doesn't boil down to the argument that since they feel harmed (using that term very broadly) by the way people define THEMSELVES, therefore any harm (again used broadly) I cause them is justified.

So this is my second question. Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?



Questions are encouraged and will be answered without deflection providing those that choose to respond engage with the 2 questions I just posed. I hope this OP to be a 2-way street of people actually talking TOO each other instead of past one another

There is no debate.

 

[Votto]

Please engage my questions. As I said I'm not interested in following people down whatever rabbit hole.

My points addressed yours, you simply did not care for them.

Fine.

I will end by saying that mental illness in society is frowned upon to such a degree, that calling someone mentally ill is akin to ostracization from the said society, much like the lepers of old.

It is a shame, and probably why the Left is so hell bent on trying to not address gender dysphoria as being a mental illness.

What can you say, people suck.

 

[forkup]

You want a debate, but strictly using your terms and definitions?

That shuts down, rather than encouraging, debate.


You make very good points about medicine and mental illness.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Medicines only tools are chemicals and blades, so that is their answer to everything.

Honest counseling is needed by people confused about their sexuality.

Not at all toobfreak disagreed with my definition and challenged it. To which I responded with my counter-argument.

I'm just not interested in letting people pose one red herring after another without them actually engaging my point.

It is my experience that this simply leads to conversations that never resolves anything.

So do you have any interest in engaging the premise, since I'm not following you down this rabbit hole either?

 

[forkup]

My points addressed yours, you simply did not care for them.

Fine.

I will end by saying that mental illness in society is frowned upon to such a degree, that calling someone mentally ill is akin to ostracization from the said society, much like the lepers of old.

It is a shame, and probably why the Left is so hell bent on trying to not address gender dysphoria as being a mental illness.

What can you say, people suck.

Feel free to quote yourself and explain how you addressed them. I will happily engage and apologize if I missed it somehow.

I hold myself to the same standard that I want to hold you too.

 

[TNHarley]

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female? I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

This is an absolutely ridiculous argument. Of course, things happen, but that means nothing. Humans have two arms, if they are born with one, they are still human.

This brings me to the social aspect of the question. I've yet to see any rational reason for opposing/hating the trans community that doesn't boil down to the argument that since they feel harmed (using that term very broadly) by the way people define THEMSELVES, therefore any harm (again used broadly) I cause them is justified.

No one cares about trannies. They just want them to leave the kids alone, and stay in their own lane. All this special shit they want is a PITA. Regardless of your mental condition, you are still male or female. So stick to the right bathroom, and right sports. You arent special.

Can anybody give me a rational reason to assert that their rights supersede those of others?

The ironic thing is, that is the main issue with trannies. They think their rights supersede everyone elses. But they dont. No ones rights supersede anothers.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Not at all toobfreak disagreed with my definition and challenged it. To which I responded with my counter-argument.

I'm just not interested in letting people pose one red herring after another without them actually engaging my point.

It is my experience that this simply leads to conversations that never resolves anything.

So do you have any interest in engaging the premise, since I'm not following you down this rabbit hole either?

Sure.

I’ll start by repeating the analogy that when your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail. A physician or a surgeon’s only tools are chemicals and blades. So, when there is a complaint, be it physical or mental, medication and surgery are the go to.

I believe that for the overwhelming majority of people with a complaint of gender dysphoria or simply feeling like the opposite sex, counseling would be far better than surgery or medication or combination of both.

Rather than telling people, especially children, that the solution to your feeling like the opposite sex is a chemical and surgical intervention to make you more resemble that sex, we should be giving them long-term, psychological counseling.

The best counseling for such people is to start with the premise that there is no one way to be a girl or a boy. By Definition people with gender dysphoria do not accept their bodies. It is far healthier to help them to learn to accept their bodies than to attempt to artificially change their bodies.

 

[forkup]

they are still human.

Nobody is asking to define the term "human", I'm asking you to define the terms male and female, care to do so?

So stick to the right bathroom, and right sports. You arent special.

Right from whose standpoint? You, me, society as a whole, some politician, the "tranny", (the derogatory nature of the term tells a story of itself.) Who has the right to define OTHERS?

No ones rights supersede anothers.

You seem to have no problem thinking that your have the "right" to tell OTHERS what they are allowed to do providing they are"trannies."

 

[forkup]

Sure.

I’ll start by repeating the analogy that when your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail. A physician or a surgeon’s only tools are chemicals and blades. So, when there is a complaint, be it physical or mental, medication and surgery are the go to.

I believe that for the overwhelming majority of people with a complaint of gender dysphoria or simply feeling like the opposite sex, counseling would be far better than surgery or medication or combination of both.

Rather than telling people, especially children, that the solution to your feeling like the opposite sex is a chemical and surgical intervention to make you more resemble that sex, we should be giving them long-term, psychological counseling.

The best counseling for such people is to start with the premise that there is no one way to be a girl or a boy. By Definition people with gender dysphoria do not accept their bodies. It is far healthier to help them to learn to accept their bodies than to attempt to artificially change their bodies.

You didn't engage my questions at all. You simply made the point you wanted to make. Something I will not respond too unless/until you engage the 2 questions I posed.

I'll repose them.

Can you give a clear consistent definition of male and female?

Is there a rational for having your rights supersede those of others?

 

[TNHarley]

I'm asking you to define the terms male and female, care to do so?

As stupid as this is, ok. Because this will eventually go back to what I just said. And its stupid.
Male = x and y sex chromosome
Female = x sex chromosome.

Right from whose standpoint?

Restrooms and sports are based on sex. You weird sexual fetish freaks and cosplay weirdos are trying to change that, but luckily losing. Their right of pretending ends when they impede on others rights. Like being comfortable when they go take a piss. Or not have to worry about having their goddamn skull cracked by a male in female combat sports.

You seem to have no problem thinking that your have the "right" to tell OTHERS what they are allowed to do providing they are"trannies."

Its not me. Its society. Its generations of historical context. And again, restrooms and sports are based on sex. When you try to change that for yourself, what does that mean? You are trying get special rights.

This shit isnt complicated. Most 3 year olds understand it.

 

[forkup]

As stupid as this is, ok. Because this will eventually go back to what I just said. And its stupid.
Male = x and y sex chromosome
Female = x sex chromosome.

Ok so it's chromosomes?

Really? Someone with Swyer syndrome has the XY chromosome including a working uterus. So you think men can be pregnant?

Someone with De La Chapelle syndrome has all the characteristics of a male minus being able to produce sperm. Yet they have the XX Chromosomes.

There are also people who have xyy chromosomes. How do we call those?

So any other characteristics. Since this seems inadequate?

Restrooms and sports are based on sex.

Your entire argument rests on being able to give a consistent definition of male and female.

Its not me. Its society. Its generations of historical context. And again, restrooms and sports are based on sex.

Yes it is you, and those that share your ideology, not society as a whole. And even if it was "society", and historical context. Something that for instance native Americans would wholeheartedly disagree with.There are plenty of things that are considered wrong today that "society" encouraged in the past. Slavery to name an obvious one.

 

[TNHarley]

Ok so it's chromosomes?

Like i said, it will go back to what I said originally. There are abnormalities but that doesnt change anything.
What do you call a person born with 9 fingers instead of 10 like a normal human? What do you call them, derp?

Your entire argument rests on being able to give a consistent definition of male and female.

Stupid. Again.
The definitions are consistent, but there is abnormalities like with everything on this planet.

Yes it is you, and those that share your ideology, not society as a whole. And even of it was "society", and historical context. Something that for instance native Americans would wholeheartedly disagree with.There are plenty of things that are considered wrong today that "society" encouraged in the past. Slavery to name an obvious one.

What ideology? That restrooms and sports are based off sex, and special rights shouldnt exist?
Now you are going to compare slavery to a grown mentally ill man taking a shit two feet away from a little girl. And this.

Tamikka Brents, who got her skull broken by transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, is an avid LGBTQ advocate

Tamikka Brents, who once fought the first transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, is also a vocal proponent of LGBTQ rights.

www.sportskeeda.com

You are weird. I hope you dont live around any children.

 

[Zincwarrior]

So here's the thing. I would like to ask anyone if they can give a consistent set of biological traits that clearly designate a person as male and another for female? I bet that I can give an example of a person that has characteristics of both. Be it genetic, or anatomical.

Personal opinion only.
1. The answer to the determination of sex is simple: XX or XY. Variations are exceptions to the rule. There are physical differences that lead to different issues. Its also a range for everything besides the reproduction. Men tend to be physically larger and stronger, but thats a range.

2. ANything not related to the above is a social construct. "Gender" is primarily a social construct. Clothing, nurturing, culture, everything else, access to jobs and rights, is purely culture.

 

[forkup]

Like i said, it will go back to what I said originally. There are abnormalities but that doesnt change anything.
What do you call a person born with 9 fingers instead of 10 like a normal human? What do you call them, derp?

Stupid. Again.
The definitions are consistent, but there is abnormalities like with everything on this planet.

What ideology? That restrooms and sports are based off sex, and special rights shouldnt exist?
Now you are going to compare slavery to a grown mentally ill man taking a shit two feet away from a little girl. And this.

Tamikka Brents, who got her skull broken by transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, is an avid LGBTQ advocate

Tamikka Brents, who once fought the first transgender MMA fighter Fallon Fox, is also a vocal proponent of LGBTQ rights.

www.sportskeeda.com

You are weird. I hope you dont live around any children.

Like i said, it will go back to what I said originally. There are abnormalities but that doesnt change anything.

So it's chromosomes unless there's an "abnormality" after which it's... ?

What ideology?

The ideology that trans people don't have the right to go to a bathroom they are comfortable with because other people aren't comfortable with them doing so.

The ideology that trans people can only participate in sports that matches their "chromosomes" unless of course theirs an "abnormality", that ideology.

And save me the "think about the children" appeal to emotion. Children aren't bigots by nature it's a learned behavior.

Point in case a few years ago my then 10 year old daughter had a boy in her class who liked dressing as a girl. Me being European this was accepted by the teacher and the students. Now harm came to my girl because of his behavior. Much healthier in my opinion then making him feel he doesn't have a right to do so, or that he's doing something wrong.

 

[TNHarley]

The ideology that trans people don't have the right to go to a bathroom they are comfortable with because other people aren't comfortable with them doing so.

special rights. bathrooms are based on sex.

The ideology that trans people can only participate in sports that matches their "chromosomes" unless of course theirs an "abnormality", that ideology.

special rights. Sports are based on sex.

And save me the "think about the children" appeal to emotion. Children aren't bigots by nature it's a learned behavior.

No, I meant I dont think you should be around them.
Again, nobody gives a darn about trannies. Its when they try to get special rights, or indoctrinate children with their sexual fetishes and cosplay.