G. Floyds Autopsy

[Bojingles]

Doctors are the only one who can make that correlation.

Yes, and according to the medical community, methamphetamines are already correlated with breathing problems, heart attack, and death.

Well there is a direct correlation that choke holds cause death. Yes it is a small number but it happens. There is a direct correlation that people will pass out from yes lack of oxygen while being under this choke hold

Chauvin didn't use a "choke hold".

IF methamphetamine was the cause of death it would be listed as the cause of immediate death. They have the technology to diagnose it as a cause of death if the levels are high enough they are able to do that. They didn't.

According to the Hennipen County Medical Examiner's report, "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death."

Yet Floyd was struggling with the police walking around going to the store passing counterfeit bills and hanging with the gang. It was not reported that prior to the encounter he was having problems.

Well, he was obviously having problems before being restrained on the ground. Given his heart disease, the stress and anxiety he was feeling could've easily lead to systemic complications, especially with an intoxicant such as meth in his system. The neck restraint was a factor, but it wasn't the sole factor. The Hennipen County Medical Examiner stated they were all factors.

So far 5 states including Florida have banned it.

Which means it's still legal in 45 states or 95% of the country.

 

[Kilroy2]

Doctors are the only one who can make that correlation.

Yes, and according to the medical community, methamphetamines are already correlated with breathing problems, heart attack, and death.

Well there is a direct correlation that choke holds cause death. Yes it is a small number but it happens. There is a direct correlation that people will pass out from yes lack of oxygen while being under this choke hold

Chauvin didn't use a "choke hold".

IF methamphetamine was the cause of death it would be listed as the cause of immediate death. They have the technology to diagnose it as a cause of death if the levels are high enough they are able to do that. They didn't.

According to the Hennipen County Medical Examiner's report, "The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death."

Yet Floyd was struggling with the police walking around going to the store passing counterfeit bills and hanging with the gang. It was not reported that prior to the encounter he was having problems.

Well, he was obviously having problems before being restrained on the ground. Given his heart disease, the stress and anxiety he was feeling could've easily lead to systemic complications, especially with an intoxicant such as meth in his system. The neck restraint was a factor, but it wasn't the sole factor. The Hennipen County Medical Examiner stated they were all factors.

So far 5 states including Florida have banned it.

Which means it's still legal in 45 states or 95% of the country.

Yes, and according to the medical community, methamphetamines are already correlated with breathing problems, heart attack, and death.

Yet what does that have to do with the immediate cause of death of Floyd. Are you saying that the IMMEDIATE cause of death was meth?

You are giving half statements with no context to the whole issue at hand.

Testimony from the experts

In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions," he told the court.

His death was declared to be a homicide.

The effects of meth when causing death would not be considered a homicide.

Baker acknowledged that Floyd did have underlying heart disease - a slightly enlarged heart and multiple occluded coronary arteries - as well as fentanyl and methamphetamine in his system.

The doctor told the court that he listed them as "significant conditions," because he believed that they played a role in Floyd's death, but were not direct reasons.

So you point to something and say it was the direct cause of death but the experts do not agree.

Floyd died from a "combined effect of being restrained, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system," the autopsy revealed.

That is why he was charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter. You just want to ignore the being restrained comments as it is problematic to your argument.

It may be legal in most of the states but it will not stop any prosecution if homicide occurs when officers use it incorrectly.

Police can defend themselves but they cannot commit homicide and hide behind the badge.

 

[Bojingles]

Yet what does that have to do with the immediate cause of death of Floyd. Are you saying that the IMMEDIATE cause of death was meth?

No.

Look, if you have severe heart disease and die while having sex with cocaine in your system, yes, the medical examiner would list sex as the immediate cause of death, but people have sex all the time. Sex, in and of itself, wouldn't have killed you even though it would be considered the immediate cause of death. For the record, Floyd had been taking fentanyl, which is 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine.

You are giving half statements with no context to the whole issue at hand.

Testimony from the experts.

"In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions," he told the court.

And you're providing small excerpts without any real context. Here's a larger excerpt with more context:

"He (Floyd) had very severe underlying heart disease. Mr. Floyd also had what we call hypertensive heart disease, meaning his heart weighed more than it should. So he has a heart that already needs more oxygen than a normal heart by virtue of its size, and it's limited in its ability to step up to provide more oxygen when there's demand because of the narrowing of his coronary arteries."

"In the context of an altercation with other people that involves things like physical restraint, it involves things like being held to the ground, it involves things like the pain that you would incur from having your cheek up against the asphalt and that abrasion on your shoulder, those events are gonna cause stress hormones to pour out of your body, specifically things like adrenaline — and what that adrenaline is going to do is it's going to ask your heart to beat faster."

"It's going to ask your body for more oxygen so that you can get through that altercation, and in my opinion, the law enforcement subdual restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions."

His death was declared to be a homicide.

To a medical examiner, homicide means that other people were involved in an individual's death. And just because something's listed as homicide doesn't mean the person involved intended to kill the deceased.

So you point to something and say it was the direct cause of death

I never said any such thing. If you disagree, then please quote the relevant portion of my reply that you're referring to.

Floyd died from a "combined effect of being restrained, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system," the autopsy revealed.

That is why he was charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter. You just want to ignore the being restrained comments as it is problematic to your argument.

I'm not ignoring the restraint. I'm simply stating that there's nothing to suggest that the restraint in and of itself killed him. It was a combination. There's nothing to suggest that Floyd would've died if there were no underlying heart disease and drug use, at least according to Andrew Baker's autopsy report.

 

[Turtlesoup]

Will what about the incidents of people passing out. That is a clear indication that lack of oxygen caused them to lose consciousness.

Yes people react differently to the same things. Yet when they don't follow the script and die then blame will be a placed.

In the case of someone who's complaining that they can't breathe prior to being placed in a neck restraint, it's apparent that the neck restraint didn't cause their breathing difficulty.

134 people have died

However, it's necessary to put that number in context. How many people are killed by police every year? Divide that number by the total number of individuals who die from neck restraints and, according to a policy assessment released this year by the Task Force on Policing, asphyxiation accounts for less than 1% of estimated police killings.

The argument that the rate of death is low from this method is an acceptable excuse for people to die is problematic especially for the Police. If there are other ways to restrain the person, then they should be used. IF death is caused it is because the officer is using the method incorrectly. The police depends of the publics trust. Officers defending themselves is not a problem.

Ideally, there would be no deaths involving police, and no one is excusing wrongful death. However, if deaths resulting from neck restraints represent less than 1% of all deaths involving police, then that means the overwhelmingly vast majority of deaths (99%) occur by other means. To save the largest percentage of lives, shouldn't the national focus be on police actions that result in the largest percentage of deaths rather than the lowest? Do you happen to know what represents the largest percentage of deaths involving police?

The medical coroner said that "cardiopulmonary arrest cardiopulmonary arrest" occurred during "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression" and was ruled a homicide.

Like juries, not all examiner's agree with one another. You've heard the opinion of two. And the examiner's own report stated that Floyd tested positive for methamphetamines, which itself carries a high risk of breathing problems, heart attack, and death. I'm aware that the examiner stated the method of death was a homicide, but like the jurors, I also think they take the looming threat of riots and bodily harm from certain factions of the public into account when weighing their decisions. Given the focus on death, riots, and looting by the media as a result of Floyd's death, how could they not?

1. In the case of someone who's complaining that they can't breathe prior to being placed in a neck restraint, it's apparent that the neck restraint didn't cause their breathing difficulty.

But the neck restraint made it worse to the point of death. IF someone is complaining of breathing problems you do not put your hold on his neck. The move is know to cause people to black out. It creates more of a problem. A lot of people have breathing problems. It does not mean they will die because they are able to compensate for it.
Still meth death have unique cardiovascular consequences that they can determine during medical examinations. They knew that he was on meth but that was not the cause of death. IF you believe it cause death then that is your believe but it is not a medical diagnosis. It is an example of faulty cause and effect. Much like complaining why does it always rain when I wash my car.

View attachment 496613

Assuming that he had prior problems breathing, if they did not use a neck restraint he would have survived.

When the paramedic arrived their testimony was that they though that floyd was dead from preliminary observations. They say the police officer was still applying pressure to the neck and floyd was in handcuffs. Additionally two other officers were also holding him down. Holding down a guy that was not moving.


They began to check for a pulse and to assess if he could be revived. Yet the officer still has on his neck.

2. justifying it by saying that a low number of people die because of the restraint. More people die of other police activities. That still does not make it acceptable. Just because the number is low does not mean it cannot be addressed. By address the issue then it can save lives and at the same time prevent an officer from ruining his life. You can address all the issues. Again you are ignoring what other officers are saying about what happen and what he did was not what he was trained to do.

People only have one life. If they fall in the higher level versus the lower level of police killings does not matter to the dead person or to the relatives.

Finally you are saying that the medical examiner made his judgments based on what the public might think. Well it is just your opinion. There is no proof that they made the determination on what the public things. He made the decision on what his training tells him and that is his job. Believe it or not some people can do that with considering politics or public opinion.

Again meth was not the cause of death. It was just present in the body when death occurred. You are just assuming that meth caused the death because it was present in the persons body. Yet if that was the case the medical examiners would agree with you as the cause of death. He doesn't.

Fentanyl and meth combo along with some other drugs...floyd died as most druggies do---because of their drug abuse...Stop blaming the cop----Chauvin was just trying to make sure the druggy didn't harm anyone else

 

[Kilroy2]

Will what about the incidents of people passing out. That is a clear indication that lack of oxygen caused them to lose consciousness.

Yes people react differently to the same things. Yet when they don't follow the script and die then blame will be a placed.

In the case of someone who's complaining that they can't breathe prior to being placed in a neck restraint, it's apparent that the neck restraint didn't cause their breathing difficulty.

134 people have died

However, it's necessary to put that number in context. How many people are killed by police every year? Divide that number by the total number of individuals who die from neck restraints and, according to a policy assessment released this year by the Task Force on Policing, asphyxiation accounts for less than 1% of estimated police killings.

The argument that the rate of death is low from this method is an acceptable excuse for people to die is problematic especially for the Police. If there are other ways to restrain the person, then they should be used. IF death is caused it is because the officer is using the method incorrectly. The police depends of the publics trust. Officers defending themselves is not a problem.

Ideally, there would be no deaths involving police, and no one is excusing wrongful death. However, if deaths resulting from neck restraints represent less than 1% of all deaths involving police, then that means the overwhelmingly vast majority of deaths (99%) occur by other means. To save the largest percentage of lives, shouldn't the national focus be on police actions that result in the largest percentage of deaths rather than the lowest? Do you happen to know what represents the largest percentage of deaths involving police?

The medical coroner said that "cardiopulmonary arrest cardiopulmonary arrest" occurred during "law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression" and was ruled a homicide.

Like juries, not all examiner's agree with one another. You've heard the opinion of two. And the examiner's own report stated that Floyd tested positive for methamphetamines, which itself carries a high risk of breathing problems, heart attack, and death. I'm aware that the examiner stated the method of death was a homicide, but like the jurors, I also think they take the looming threat of riots and bodily harm from certain factions of the public into account when weighing their decisions. Given the focus on death, riots, and looting by the media as a result of Floyd's death, how could they not?

1. In the case of someone who's complaining that they can't breathe prior to being placed in a neck restraint, it's apparent that the neck restraint didn't cause their breathing difficulty.

But the neck restraint made it worse to the point of death. IF someone is complaining of breathing problems you do not put your hold on his neck. The move is know to cause people to black out. It creates more of a problem. A lot of people have breathing problems. It does not mean they will die because they are able to compensate for it.
Still meth death have unique cardiovascular consequences that they can determine during medical examinations. They knew that he was on meth but that was not the cause of death. IF you believe it cause death then that is your believe but it is not a medical diagnosis. It is an example of faulty cause and effect. Much like complaining why does it always rain when I wash my car.

View attachment 496613

Assuming that he had prior problems breathing, if they did not use a neck restraint he would have survived.

When the paramedic arrived their testimony was that they though that floyd was dead from preliminary observations. They say the police officer was still applying pressure to the neck and floyd was in handcuffs. Additionally two other officers were also holding him down. Holding down a guy that was not moving.


They began to check for a pulse and to assess if he could be revived. Yet the officer still has on his neck.

2. justifying it by saying that a low number of people die because of the restraint. More people die of other police activities. That still does not make it acceptable. Just because the number is low does not mean it cannot be addressed. By address the issue then it can save lives and at the same time prevent an officer from ruining his life. You can address all the issues. Again you are ignoring what other officers are saying about what happen and what he did was not what he was trained to do.

People only have one life. If they fall in the higher level versus the lower level of police killings does not matter to the dead person or to the relatives.

Finally you are saying that the medical examiner made his judgments based on what the public might think. Well it is just your opinion. There is no proof that they made the determination on what the public things. He made the decision on what his training tells him and that is his job. Believe it or not some people can do that with considering politics or public opinion.

Again meth was not the cause of death. It was just present in the body when death occurred. You are just assuming that meth caused the death because it was present in the persons body. Yet if that was the case the medical examiners would agree with you as the cause of death. He doesn't.

Fentanyl and meth combo along with some other drugs...floyd died as most druggies do---because of their drug abuse...Stop blaming the cop----Chauvin was just trying to make sure the druggy didn't harm anyone else

Well I guess Floyd will be harming no one. Was the price that Chauvin paid worth it?

 

[Kilroy2]

(Look, if you have severe heart disease and die while having sex with cocaine in your system, yes, the medical examiner would list sex as the immediate cause of death, but people have sex all the time. Sex, in and of itself, wouldn't have killed you even though it would be considered the immediate cause of death. For the record, Floyd had been taking fentanyl, which is 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine.)

Floyd death was declared a homicide. The cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest. Other significant conditions are taken into account. The top line is what is determine to be cause of death.
Fentanyl did not cause the neck restraint. His heart disease did not cause the the neck restraint." There was only one person who cause the next restraint.

Because of his heart condition , his heart needed more oxygen than someone who is healthy.

The neck restraint put more and additional pressure on Floyds heart and body that could not be handled by his body. The officer applied this additional pressure. He was too aggressive. The guy was in handcuffs and other officers were holding him down.

Who knows if sex is the cause of death but it is not going to be processed as a homicide. It probably would be an unintentional death. So you are comparing apples to oranges. IF they say sex was the cause of death, then it is not intentional between two consenting adults. I am sure you see the difference.

(To a medical examiner, homicide means that other people were involved in an individual's death. And just because something's listed as homicide doesn't mean the person involved intended to kill the deceased.)

All homicide means is that it was an unlawful death. It was not an intention death but a negligent death or unintentional death and thus it was not first degree. That why they have different degrees.

he was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter, unintentional 2nd degree murder. He will serve his time and get released for good behavior.

 

[Bojingles]

The cause of death was cardiopulmonary arrest. Other significant conditions are taken into account. The top line is what is determine to be cause of death.

Yes, and why did Floyd die of cardiopulmonary arrest? According to Baker, because Floyd's "heart weighed more than it should. So, he has a heart that already needs more oxygen than a normal heart by virtue of its size, and it's limited in its ability to step up to provide more oxygen when there's demand because of the narrowing of his coronary arteries." With respect to the amount of fentanyl in Floyd's system, Baker added, "Had Mr. Floyd been home alone in his locked residence with no evidence of trauma, and the only autopsy finding was that fentanyl level, then yes, I would certify his death as due to fentanyl toxicity."

So, here we had an individual with severe heart disease, whose heart weighed more than it should and needed more oxygen than a normal heart, and on top of that, he had enough fentanyl in his system to have been considered a cause of death if he were to have died alone. So yes, homicide was listed as the immediate cause of death, because there were other people involved, but Floyd's heart disease and fentanyl use undoubtedly complicated the restraint, which resulted in cardiopulmonary arrest, and that's exactly what the top line states.

Floyd didn't die from asphyxia. He died of cardiopulmonary arrest while being restrained, but the police weren't aware that he had severe heart disease, which is why I don't believe they're guilty of murder. It's unfortunate that Floyd died, but unless the officers were aware of his condition, it was completely unintentional. Should they be punished for it? Not unless they knew and did it anyway, in my opinion.

Fentanyl did not cause the neck restraint. His heart disease did not cause the neck restraint." There was only one person who cause the next restraint.

No. Floyd's heart disease resulted in the cardiopulmonary arrest that complicated the restraint.

Because of his heart condition, his heart needed more oxygen than someone who is healthy.

Did the officers know he had severe heart disease? Did they know his heart weighed more than a normal heart and consequently needed more oxygen, or that he was on fentanyl? No. But Chauvin is being blamed in large part because he's a white officer. Do you honestly believe this case would be a mainstream story if Chauvin were black? I don't.

The neck restraint put more and additional pressure on Floyds heart and body that could not be handled by his body. The officer applied this additional pressure. He was too aggressive. The guy was in handcuffs and other officers were holding him down.

Again, they didn't know he had severe heart disease. How could they have known?

Who knows if sex is the cause of death but it is not going to be processed as a homicide.

It would be listed as the immediate cause of death.

It probably would be an unintentional death. So you are comparing apples to oranges.

Just because homicide is listed on the medical examiner's report doesn't mean it was intentional. And given that the officers didn't know Floyd had severe heart disease, I have no reason to believe it was.

he was charged with 2nd degree manslaughter, unintentional 2nd degree murder. He will serve his time and get released for good behavior.

I don't agree with the verdict, nor am I convinced that all of the jurors felt comfortable voting for any outcome other than guilty due to the threat of violence against them and their families.

 

[Kilroy2]

He had health problems. That does not mean he would have died on that day. The only difference is the actions of the police officer. IF the officer did not do what he did then FLoyd would still be alive with the same health problems.

You cannot definitely say that he would have died that day even if he never encountered the officer.

If you have heart problems and breathing problems, the last thing that you would want to do is run a marathon.

The officer exerted addition stress to a health issue. The big difference between life and death is who or what tip the cart over.

He was found guilty case closed.

 

[Bojingles]

He had health problems. That does not mean he would have died on that day.

And there's little reason to believe he would've died if he hadn't had severe heart disease and been taking fentanyl.

The only difference is the actions of the police officer. IF the officer did not do what he did then Floyd would still be alive with the same health problems.

If you can demonstrate that the officer's actions would've resulted in Floyd's death independent of his heart disease and fentanyl use, then yes, I'd consider the officer at fault, but Chauvin's not psychic; he wasn't aware of Floyd's condition.

You cannot definitely say that he would have died that day even if he never encountered the officer.

By the same token, you can't show that Floyd would've died if he hadn't had heart disease. His underlying condition, which the officers weren't aware of, complicated the restraint, not the other way around.

He was found guilty

Guilty verdicts can be appealed. And jurors are human, thus fallible, as evidenced by the number of people that have been convicted of murder and later exonerated.

 

[Kilroy2]

He had health problems. That does not mean he would have died on that day.

And there's little reason to believe he would've died if he hadn't had severe heart disease and been taking fentanyl.

The only difference is the actions of the police officer. IF the officer did not do what he did then Floyd would still be alive with the same health problems.

If you can demonstrate that the officer's actions would've resulted in Floyd's death independent of his heart disease and fentanyl use, then yes, I'd consider the officer at fault, but Chauvin's not psychic; he wasn't aware of Floyd's condition.

You cannot definitely say that he would have died that day even if he never encountered the officer.

By the same token, you can't show that Floyd would've died if he hadn't had heart disease. His underlying condition, which the officers weren't aware of, complicated the restraint, not the other way around.

He was found guilty

Guilty verdicts can be appealed. And jurors are human, thus fallible, as evidenced by the number of people that have been convicted of murder and later exonerated.

(And there's little reason to believe he would've died if he hadn't had severe heart disease and been taking fentanyl.)

But he did die and probably why the officer has been convicted because he used overkill to subdue the suspect.

(If you can demonstrate that the officer's actions would've resulted in Floyd's death independent of his heart disease and fentanyl use, then yes, I'd consider the officer at fault, but Chauvin's not psychic; he wasn't aware of Floyd's condition.)

Why would I have to when professionals have already determined that the various factors played a role in his death. The direct cause being the restraint method that the officer used. IF he had not use the restraint then he would still be alive. Yet one plus four equals five and to get that number you need both. You seem to what to split it up and ignore one fact and promote the other facts. Your scenario is irrelevant in the case. Ignorance is not an excuse.

(By the same token, you can't show that Floyd would've died if he hadn't had heart disease. His underlying condition, which the officers weren't aware of, complicated the restraint, not the other way around.)

But he did die and had heart disease. What if scenarios are irrelevant when the death has already occurred. People have died when that restraint has been used. That why some do not use it as it caries a risk. Again ignorance is not an excuse.

Police chief has testified that Chauvin was not following proper procedures. The immediate cause of death was determined to be the restraint method.

 

[Bojingles]

But he did die

Yes, of cardiopulmonary arrest which was directly tied to his heart disease.

Why would I have to when professionals have already determined that the various factors played a role in his death.

The various factors being heart disease and fentanyl use, not simply the neck restraint.

IF he had not use the restraint then he would still be alive.

And if Floyd hadn't had heart disease he would also likely still be alive. If you remove either factor, Floyd would likely still be alive. However, as has been stated repeatedly, the difference is Chauvin didn't know Floyd had heart disease, which is why I don't believe he's at fault.

Your scenario is irrelevant in the case. Ignorance is not an excuse.

It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Chauvin didn't know he had heart disease. How was he supposed to know that placing Floyd in a neck restraint would cause him to have a cardiac arrest? Tell me.

But he did die and had heart disease.

How much evidence is there to suggest that Floyd would have died if he didn't have heart disease? Very little to none.

People have died when that restraint has been used.

People have died from the use tasers during arrest, too. At least 500 people in the United States have died since 2001 after being shocked with stun guns during an arrest or while in jail. Are you going to suggest that tasers should be banned now? People have also died from certain prescription drugs that are widely available, too. Approximately 100 people die from choking on the lid of a ballpoint pen annually. Want to ban ballpoint pens, too?

That why some do not use it as it caries a risk.

Tons of stuff that's legal carries a risk. People who weren't aware they had an allergy to a particular vaccine have died from anaphylaxis after being vaccinated.

Police chief has testified that Chauvin was not following proper procedures.

It's been shown that the police chief wasn't being forthright. The technique is taught in the training materials. It's called the "Maximal Restraint Technique". The materials include a photo of an officer with his knee on a suspect’s neck during a training exercise—similar to the hold used by Chauvin.

 

[Kilroy2]

But he did die

Yes, of cardiopulmonary arrest which was directly tied to his heart disease.

Why would I have to when professionals have already determined that the various factors played a role in his death.

The various factors being heart disease and fentanyl use, not simply the neck restraint.

IF he had not use the restraint then he would still be alive.

And if Floyd hadn't had heart disease he would also likely still be alive. If you remove either factor, Floyd would likely still be alive. However, as has been stated repeatedly, the difference is Chauvin didn't know Floyd had heart disease, which is why I don't believe he's at fault.

Your scenario is irrelevant in the case. Ignorance is not an excuse.

It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Chauvin didn't know he had heart disease. How was he supposed to know that placing Floyd in a neck restraint would cause him to have a cardiac arrest? Tell me.

But he did die and had heart disease.

How much evidence is there to suggest that Floyd would have died if he didn't have heart disease? Very little to none.

People have died when that restraint has been used.

People have died from the use tasers during arrest, too. At least 500 people in the United States have died since 2001 after being shocked with stun guns during an arrest or while in jail. Are you going to suggest that tasers should be banned now? People have also died from certain prescription drugs that are widely available, too. Approximately 100 people die from choking on the lid of a ballpoint pen annually. Want to ban ballpoint pens, too?

That why some do not use it as it caries a risk.

Tons of stuff that's legal carries a risk. People who weren't aware they had an allergy to a particular vaccine have died from anaphylaxis after being vaccinated.

Police chief has testified that Chauvin was not following proper procedures.

It's been shown that the police chief wasn't being forthright. The technique is taught in the training materials. It's called the "Maximal Restraint Technique". The materials include a photo of an officer with his knee on a suspect’s neck during a training exercise—similar to the hold used by Chauvin.
View attachment 499098

You - Yes, of cardiopulmonary arrest which was directly tied to his heart disease.

Yet 10 minutes prior to police showing up he had heart disease and it did not kill him or was he having life or death issues that was putting him in danger.

what changed, the restraint that put additional stress on his body that the body could not cope with.

You really like to put the cart before the horse. Yet the official death certificate disagrees. Since you did not perform the autopsy your opinion is just self servicing to support the officer

you - And if Floyd hadn't had heart disease he would also likely still be alive. If you remove either factor, Floyd would likely still be alive. However, as has been stated repeatedly, the difference is Chauvin didn't know Floyd had heart disease, which is why I don't believe he's at fault.

if you believe it then fine. In the real word he was found guilty and was determined to be at fault.

you - It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Chauvin didn't know he had heart disease. How was he supposed to know that placing Floyd in a neck restraint would cause him to have a cardiac arrest? Tell me.

of course he did not know but he complained of breathing problem which the officer with 3 other officers should have used an different approach.
Yes it is an excuse if he claim well I did not know. I wish when an officer gives me a ticket, I can claim I didn't know and he would not issue the ticket. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Thus a law officer who uses the neck restraint while two other officer holding him down cannot claim ignorance when the guy was complaining that he could not breath while being held down.

Tasers -
Tasers has been classified as non lethal force however there is growing evidence as you suggest of deaths, It will probably change as awareness comes into play. The classification should change as it is shown to be lethal. Good point but it still goes back to what the police chief said that Chavin used the restraint improperly.

Chief - Once Mr. Floyd had stopped resisting, and certainly once he was in distress and trying to verbalize that, that should have stopped," Arradondo testified during Chauvin's criminal trial. He sounds pretty forthright on that.

Once Mr. Floyd had stopped resisting, and certainly once he was in distress and trying to verbalize that, that should have stopped," Arradondo testified during Chauvin's criminal trial.

So your answer was incomplete as it does appear to be in the manual but there are limitations.

He says the policy mentions light to moderate pressure. When I look at (the image) and when I look at the facial expression of Mr. Floyd, that does not appear in any way, shape or form that that is light to moderate pressure."

So there are limitations and not a black and white issues of it can be used indiscriminately

in the first picture the trainer is barely applying pressure. The second picture shows the policeman apply pressure but does not appear to be on the neck but more on the back. He other leg is still in a modified standing position. he probably is using his hand on the car to remain steady.

Still the paramedic statement was he thought that floyd was death when he arrive. Yet Chauvin was still on his neck.

 

[Bojingles]

You - Yes, of cardiopulmonary arrest which was directly tied to his heart disease.

Yet 10 minutes prior to police showing up he had heart disease and it did not kill him or was he having life or death issues that was putting him in danger.

what changed, the restraint that put additional stress on his body that the body could not cope with.

You really like to put the cart before the horse. Yet the official death certificate disagrees. Since you did not perform the autopsy your opinion is just self servicing to support the officer

you - And if Floyd hadn't had heart disease he would also likely still be alive. If you remove either factor, Floyd would likely still be alive. However, as has been stated repeatedly, the difference is Chauvin didn't know Floyd had heart disease, which is why I don't believe he's at fault.

if you believe it then fine. In the real word he was found guilty and was determined to be at fault.

you - It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Chauvin didn't know he had heart disease. How was he supposed to know that placing Floyd in a neck restraint would cause him to have a cardiac arrest? Tell me.

of course he did not know but he complained of breathing problem which the officer with 3 other officers should have used an different approach.
Yes it is an excuse if he claim well I did not know. I wish when an officer gives me a ticket, I can claim I didn't know and he would not issue the ticket. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

Thus a law officer who uses the neck restraint while two other officer holding him down cannot claim ignorance when the guy was complaining that he could not breath while being held down.

Tasers -
Tasers has been classified as non lethal force however there is growing evidence as you suggest of deaths, It will probably change as awareness comes into play. The classification should change as it is shown to be lethal. Good point but it still goes back to what the police chief said that Chavin used the restraint improperly.

Chief - Once Mr. Floyd had stopped resisting, and certainly once he was in distress and trying to verbalize that, that should have stopped," Arradondo testified during Chauvin's criminal trial. He sounds pretty forthright on that.

Once Mr. Floyd had stopped resisting, and certainly once he was in distress and trying to verbalize that, that should have stopped," Arradondo testified during Chauvin's criminal trial.

So your answer was incomplete as it does appear to be in the manual but there are limitations.

He says the policy mentions light to moderate pressure. When I look at (the image) and when I look at the facial expression of Mr. Floyd, that does not appear in any way, shape or form that that is light to moderate pressure."

So there are limitations and not a black and white issues of it can be used indiscriminately

in the first picture the trainer is barely applying pressure. The second picture shows the policeman apply pressure but does not appear to be on the neck but more on the back. He other leg is still in a modified standing position. he probably is using his hand on the car to remain steady.

Still the paramedic statement was he thought that floyd was death when he arrive. Yet Chauvin was still on his neck.

I've already answered those points.

 

[Kilroy2]

They were counter arguments to your points. Yet you cannot shot down the Police chiefs testimony. You cannot shoot down the autopsy conclusion of immediate cause of death was caused by the restraint used by officer. You cannot shot down that he impropertly used the restraint.

 

[Bojingles]

They were counter arguments to your points. Yet you cannot shot down the Police chiefs testimony. You cannot shoot down the autopsy conclusion of immediate cause of death was caused by the restraint used by officer. You cannot shot down that he impropertly used the restraint.

Your counterarguments are simply restatements of rebuttals I've already addressed.

 

[Kilroy2]

They were counter arguments to your points. Yet you cannot shot down the Police chiefs testimony. You cannot shoot down the autopsy conclusion of immediate cause of death was caused by the restraint used by officer. You cannot shot down that he impropertly used the restraint.

Your counterarguments are simply restatements of rebuttals I've already addressed.

You addressed them but didn't counter them. You pretty much just changed the subject. Pointing to the stain on the wall.

You believe the officer should not have been charged. There is no counter argument. There is only ones believe that he should not have been found guilty. Yet he was found guilty in a court of law.

 

[Bojingles]

You believe the officer should not have been charged. There is no counter argument.

There have been numerous counterarguments. I've explained why I believe Chauvin isn't at fault multiple times, and that explanation (as well as others) constitutes a counterargument. That's exactly what a counterargument is; an opposing argument(ie. a series of reasons opposing a point of view). There's no need to perpetuate the discussion because you're simply repeating claims I've already addressed.

 

[Turtlesoup]

The coroner became little more than a movie critic. Siskel and Ebert at the movies, "Geroge Floyd death caused by white cops brutality" . The coroner determined Floyds' s death NOT on his physical findings. Not the Drugs in his system, nor his health condition (enlarged heart and the fentanyl level in his system). Not facts or anything, just a cheap jack bargain basement video.

For those whinning about poor wittle Georgie being put on his tummy and held down by the officers big bad knee that miraculously killing him ( atleast in the race hustlers imagination) as he whined his wittle heart out .........

What happens when 4 or 5 men do the same thing to an unruly white passenger on a plane as he too whine Help ME HELP ME

Another flight was forced to divert after an 'unruly passenger' had to be detained

The incident adds to the number of unruly passengers, which has forced a crackdown by the Federal Aviation Administration as travel volumes pick up.

www.yahoo.com

 

[Faun]

Yet what does that have to do with the immediate cause of death of Floyd. Are you saying that the IMMEDIATE cause of death was meth?

No.

Look, if you have severe heart disease and die while having sex with cocaine in your system, yes, the medical examiner would list sex as the immediate cause of death, but people have sex all the time. Sex, in and of itself, wouldn't have killed you even though it would be considered the immediate cause of death. For the record, Floyd had been taking fentanyl, which is 50 to 100 times more potent than morphine.

You are giving half statements with no context to the whole issue at hand.

Testimony from the experts.

"In my opinion, the law enforcement subdual restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions," he told the court.

And you're providing small excerpts without any real context. Here's a larger excerpt with more context:

"He (Floyd) had very severe underlying heart disease. Mr. Floyd also had what we call hypertensive heart disease, meaning his heart weighed more than it should. So he has a heart that already needs more oxygen than a normal heart by virtue of its size, and it's limited in its ability to step up to provide more oxygen when there's demand because of the narrowing of his coronary arteries."

"In the context of an altercation with other people that involves things like physical restraint, it involves things like being held to the ground, it involves things like the pain that you would incur from having your cheek up against the asphalt and that abrasion on your shoulder, those events are gonna cause stress hormones to pour out of your body, specifically things like adrenaline — and what that adrenaline is going to do is it's going to ask your heart to beat faster."

"It's going to ask your body for more oxygen so that you can get through that altercation, and in my opinion, the law enforcement subdual restraint and the neck compression was just more than Mr. Floyd could take by virtue of those heart conditions."

His death was declared to be a homicide.

To a medical examiner, homicide means that other people were involved in an individual's death. And just because something's listed as homicide doesn't mean the person involved intended to kill the deceased.

So you point to something and say it was the direct cause of death

I never said any such thing. If you disagree, then please quote the relevant portion of my reply that you're referring to.

Floyd died from a "combined effect of being restrained, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system," the autopsy revealed.

That is why he was charged with 3rd degree murder and manslaughter. You just want to ignore the being restrained comments as it is problematic to your argument.

I'm not ignoring the restraint. I'm simply stating that there's nothing to suggest that the restraint in and of itself killed him. It was a combination. There's nothing to suggest that Floyd would've died if there were no underlying heart disease and drug use, at least according to Andrew Baker's autopsy report.

There's no reason to believe Floyd would have died at that moment had 3 cops not kneeled on him for nearly 10 minutes. Several after he stopped breathing and they did nothing to help him.

 

[Faun]

The coroner became little more than a movie critic. Siskel and Ebert at the movies, "Geroge Floyd death caused by white cops brutality" . The coroner determined Floyds' s death NOT on his physical findings. Not the Drugs in his system, nor his health condition (enlarged heart and the fentanyl level in his system). Not facts or anything, just a cheap jack bargain basement video.

For those whinning about poor wittle Georgie being put on his tummy and held down by the officers big bad knee that miraculously killing him ( atleast in the race hustlers imagination) as he whined his wittle heart out .........

What happens when 4 or 5 men do the same thing to an unruly white passenger on a plane as he too whine Help ME HELP ME

Another flight was forced to divert after an 'unruly passenger' had to be detained

The incident adds to the number of unruly passengers, which has forced a crackdown by the Federal Aviation Administration as travel volumes pick up.

www.yahoo.com

Oh? For how many minutes did they hold that person down?