Gawd, Let us talk about fraud: Chemists have partly unlocked the recipe by creating a complex compound essential to all life — in a lab

[Grumblenuts]

Unscientific fraud ^^^

Fraud is worse than lying. That's why it's illegal.

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/personal-injury/fraud-vs-lying-whats-the-legal-difference/

 

[scruffy]

The thing I like about this is that they seem to understand that biological evolution can't begin until life exists.

There was chemical evolution long before there was any biology.

You should study ribozymes, which are little bits of RNA that catalyze other chemical reactions. The shortest one is CUGGC. Ribozymes have names, like hammerhead, hairpin, and so on.

One of the interesting things about ribozymes is most of them require divalent metal ion cofactors. Magnesium is the big player there. When you add MgCl2 to a solution of ribozymes in water you see a huge spike in the kinetic right around 10mM concentration. Magnesium in seawater is about 1300 ppm, it's the third most abundant ion behind sodium and chlorine.

Here:

Ribozyme - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first self replicating ribozyme was discovered in 2002, the second author is now the president of the Salk Institute

INAUGURAL ARTICLE by a Recently Elected Academy Member:A self-replicating ligase ribozyme

A self-replicating molecule directs the covalent assembly of component molecules to form a product that is of identical composition to the parent. When the newly formed product also is able to direct the assembly of product molecules, the self-replicating ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[ding]

There was chemical evolution long before there was any biology.

You should study ribozymes, which are little bits of RNA that catalyze other chemical reactions. The shortest one is CUGGC. Ribozymes have names, like hammerhead, hairpin, and so on.

One of the interesting things about ribozymes is most of them require divalent metal ion cofactors. Magnesium is the big player there. When you add MgCl2 to a solution of ribozymes in water you see a huge spike in the kinetic right around 10mM concentration. Magnesium in seawater is about 1300 ppm, it's the third most abundant ion behind sodium and chlorine.

Here:

Ribozyme - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The first self replicating ribozyme was discovered in 2002, the second author is now the president of the Salk Institute

INAUGURAL ARTICLE by a Recently Elected Academy Member:A self-replicating ligase ribozyme

A self-replicating molecule directs the covalent assembly of component molecules to form a product that is of identical composition to the parent. When the newly formed product also is able to direct the assembly of product molecules, the self-replicating ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yes, chemical evolution. Chemical bonding and chance.

 

[scruffy]

Yes, chemical evolution. Chemical bonding and chance.

Which now continues as biological evolution.

Still the same thing, chemical bonding and chance.

 

[ding]

Which now continues as biological evolution.

Still the same thing, chemical bonding and chance.

Two different things.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The thing I like about this is that they seem to understand that biological evolution can't begin until life exists.

Nothing biological can hapoen... until life exists?

Well yeah, by definition. "Biological"

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There was chemical evolution long before there was any biology.

Exactly. It's how life formed.

 

[ding]

Nothing biological can hapoen... until life exists?

Well yeah, by definition. "Biological"

So post cell.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So post cell.

Maybe. The FUCA was possibly, maybe even likely, precellular. So it would come down to semantics. Arbitrarily chosen definitions.

But it's not out of bounds to define such a FUCA as not life, for certain uses. But we don't know many of its properties.

In which case, the processes between the FUCA and LUCA would be abiogenesis.

 

[scruffy]

Exactly. It's how life formed.

"Life" is more than just the machinery.

"Life" has a lot to do with the dance of photons.

Just because the TV stops working doesn't mean the electricity's dead.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[ding]

Maybe. The FUCA was possibly, maybe even likely, precellular. So it would come down to semantics. Arbitrarily chosen definitions.

But it's not out of bounds to define such a FUCA as not life, for certain uses. But we don't know many of its properties.

You say arbitrary. I say self evident. No life. No biological evolution. No natural selection.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You say arbitrary. I say self evident. No life. No biological evolution. No natural selection.

"No life, no biological...."

This is redundant.

 

[ding]

"No life, no biological...."

This is redundant.

And apparently it needs to be. Because some people want to apply natural selection to inanimate long chains of organic molecules that mimic amino acids.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And apparently it needs to be.

Maybe forbyou.

I know what the word biological means. You haven't stated anything insightful.

"If no water, no wet..."

Uh, okay.

 

[ding]

Maybe forbyou.

I know what the word biological means. You haven't stated anything insightful.

"If no water, no wet..."

Uh, okay.

Obviously I did considering others disagreed with you. Where were you in those conversations?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Obviously I did considering others disagreed with you.

No they didn't. Ding, don't start the chest thumping, you always make silly errors when you do.

Hey, without cars, there is no car driving.

But anyhoo... there is both selection and evolution among chemicals. That's how abiogenesis occurred.

 

[ding]

Obviously that doesn't mean anything.

Go try out the useless talking point on them, then.

Hey, without cars, there is no car driving.

But anyhoo... there is both selection and evolution among chemicals. That's how abiogenesis occurred.

Again... where were you when others were arguing that natural selection was occuring before life?

You were silent. That's where. So don't tell me I don't need to state the OBVIOUS because OBVIOUSLY I do need to state the OBVIOUS because idiots argue against the OBVIOUS.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Again... where were you when others were arguing that natural selection was occuring before life?

I am not interested in your strawman.

Of course selection operates on chemicals.

Is it "natural selection", as defined in evolution? No, because that is defined by selection on life.

So all you have done is say "no water, no wet".

Not insightful.

 

[ding]

Of course selection operates on chemicals.

You just contradicted yourself, so I did need to state the obvious.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Nothing biological can hapoen... until life exists?

Well yeah, by definition. "Biological"

Yes, its one of the most tested laws in the sciences, the law of biogenesis, as well established as any of the other laws we have in physics.