Get Used to It: Israel Is Here to Stay

[Billo_Really]

You say that's not it at all.

How do you know it is not the reason? I can tell from my knowledge discussion with Jews outside of Israel, that it is very much a reason for it.

In history, Jews have been known for at times to "sell themselves out", even turn their backs in their heritage, because it was a survival mechanism.

I know students in the united states keeping themselves out of Israel sympathizing, not because they are "rejecting" it, but because they simply are terrified of the anti-Israeli spirits surrounding them.

No, they don't want to be associated with a country that is turning more German with each passing day. You don't like the reference. Well, I don't like reading the following...

One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz (Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how the German army 'operated' in the Warsaw Ghetto.

...when I see shit like this...

a senior IDF officer proudly called, "in order to beat the Palestinians, let's be Judo-Nazis"?

...the comparison is a valid one. These are your own people, your own countryman, your beloved IDF, saying you need to be more like the nazis, in order to defeat the inhuman Palestinian's.

I've said this before and I'm going to say it again, you treat the Palestinian's, like the nazis treated the jews. And that is making jews all over the world, sick to their stomach.

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo_Really, et al,

Your posts are so disjointed and hard to follow, I don't know why I respond to them. It's like you deliberately make them is such away, that it takes extra work to weed out your point and respond to it. You include all these unecessary salutations, fragment my post and then do a data dump and call it a day!

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a lot of work trying to dig-out your individual points in order to respond.

There's no reason to assume. I stated the areas in my post and you're missing two.

(COMMENT)

What two?


(COMMENT)

The barriers are a means of non-lethal separation of Hostile Arab-Palestinians (HoAP) from targeting sovereign Israeli interests.

The Israel never said the Palestinian does not have the right to resist. It is a matter of how they "appropriately" resist that is controversial. Remembering that international law provides for the detention and punishment for HoAP that intentionally do harm.

No one says that the Palestinian does not have a prima facie case relative to Settlement issue. (Understanding that the settlement issue is not a crime of the same magnitude as murder, hijacking, piracy, and terrorism.)

Relative to the "fishing and farming" comment, these are blanket complaints with no specifics attached. I assume the fishing deals with the naval blockade of Gaza which is a logical extension of the security barrier. Given the "ends justifies the means" policy of the HoAP, and the established past criminal and terrorist behaviors demonstrated by the HoAP, such a blockage is a prudent security measure that quarantines the potential threat of the HoAP from this avenue of exploitation.

This one got me particularly irritated...
How do you have the nerve to list something like that, after what Israel did to the Mavi Mamara? They borded a vessel in international waters and summarily executed a 19 year old American. You don't call that piracy?

(COMMENT)

Absolutely NOT!!! This is in no way comparable to the MS Achille Lauro incident where Palestinian Terrorist killed an unarmed, wheelchair bound, American (Leon Klinghoffer) and then threw his body overboard.

This event (May 2010 MV Mavi Mamara) was a planned voyage with the mission of - intentional confrontation with the Israeli blockade over Gaza. The MV Mavi Mamara was a vessel known to have been involved with the Humanitarian Relief Fund in Turkish (IHH), an NGO with known terrorist ties. The MV Mavi Mamara had a known past history of smuggling arms for insurgent and terrorist groups. Its mission was no secret and widely publicized in print media and television coverage. When the ship was confronted by Israeli commandos, Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, the IHH Leader of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, was on board the MV Mavi Marmara and gave orders to the crew to resist the boarding party using knives, clubs, iron bars and axes; an action resulting in 9 fatalities. There were no summary executions. These were fatalities, in which radical activist, with suicidal tendencies, deliberately acted in threatening ways, provoking a lethal response. In fact Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, a lawyer, referred to them as martyrs.

The UN Palmer Committee on the Mavi Marmara Report was subsequently leaked to the NY Times. I would not discourage you from reading it, but I would like to call your attention to Pages 38 thru 45, beginning with Paragraph 67 and ending with Paragraph 82 (below).

82. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

SOURCE: Palmer Report (Strictly Confidential) in NYT

Inappropriate behaviors and a history of past criminal activity often have consequence when a new direct confrontation is provoked. The case of the MV Mavi Mamara in May 2010 was just such a case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palmer Report was all propaganda. They didn't even interview anyone on the boat. They got all their information, from the Israeli propaganda machine.

The fact is, the vessel was in international waters when Israeli commando's attacked. There is no law that allows you to board a vessel, sailing under the flag of a sovereign nation, in international waters. That's piracy. They were carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza and that was it. There was no resistance, no terrorists, no one but people who cared about humanity. And if you would like me to post the video of the American being shot, just say the word and I'll let you have it!

As far as the fishermen go, they were being shot at in Gazan territorial waters, where the IDF has no legal presence to be. How fucked do you have to be, to shoot at people fishing?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTUYivihoTE]Free Gaza Mov: Israeli shooting palestinian fishermen boats - YouTube[/ame]


Now here they are shooting at people farming!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQXecLyureE]Israeli Terrorism in Gaza - Farming Under Fire - YouTube[/ame]


That is fucked!

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

Interviews with crew members from the Mavi Marmara

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIuEAUa05ug&list=PLA022FC14B2678E5E&index=10]Gokkiran Gokhan, Mavi Marmara's Chief Officer Tells His Side of the Story - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JdfxKEGGtc&list=PLA022FC14B2678E5E]Interview with Mehmut Tuval, Captain, Mavi Marmara - YouTube[/ame]

 

[toastman]

Billo_Really, et al,

Your posts are so disjointed and hard to follow, I don't know why I respond to them. It's like you deliberately make them is such away, that it takes extra work to weed out your point and respond to it. You include all these unecessary salutations, fragment my post and then do a data dump and call it a day!

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a lot of work trying to dig-out your individual points in order to respond.


(COMMENT)

What two?


(COMMENT)

The barriers are a means of non-lethal separation of Hostile Arab-Palestinians (HoAP) from targeting sovereign Israeli interests.

The Israel never said the Palestinian does not have the right to resist. It is a matter of how they "appropriately" resist that is controversial. Remembering that international law provides for the detention and punishment for HoAP that intentionally do harm.

No one says that the Palestinian does not have a prima facie case relative to Settlement issue. (Understanding that the settlement issue is not a crime of the same magnitude as murder, hijacking, piracy, and terrorism.)

Relative to the "fishing and farming" comment, these are blanket complaints with no specifics attached. I assume the fishing deals with the naval blockade of Gaza which is a logical extension of the security barrier. Given the "ends justifies the means" policy of the HoAP, and the established past criminal and terrorist behaviors demonstrated by the HoAP, such a blockage is a prudent security measure that quarantines the potential threat of the HoAP from this avenue of exploitation.


(COMMENT)

Absolutely NOT!!! This is in no way comparable to the MS Achille Lauro incident where Palestinian Terrorist killed an unarmed, wheelchair bound, American (Leon Klinghoffer) and then threw his body overboard.

This event (May 2010 MV Mavi Mamara) was a planned voyage with the mission of - intentional confrontation with the Israeli blockade over Gaza. The MV Mavi Mamara was a vessel known to have been involved with the Humanitarian Relief Fund in Turkish (IHH), an NGO with known terrorist ties. The MV Mavi Mamara had a known past history of smuggling arms for insurgent and terrorist groups. Its mission was no secret and widely publicized in print media and television coverage. When the ship was confronted by Israeli commandos, Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, the IHH Leader of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, was on board the MV Mavi Marmara and gave orders to the crew to resist the boarding party using knives, clubs, iron bars and axes; an action resulting in 9 fatalities. There were no summary executions. These were fatalities, in which radical activist, with suicidal tendencies, deliberately acted in threatening ways, provoking a lethal response. In fact Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, a lawyer, referred to them as martyrs.

The UN Palmer Committee on the Mavi Marmara Report was subsequently leaked to the NY Times. I would not discourage you from reading it, but I would like to call your attention to Pages 38 thru 45, beginning with Paragraph 67 and ending with Paragraph 82 (below).

82. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

SOURCE: Palmer Report (Strictly Confidential) in NYT

Inappropriate behaviors and a history of past criminal activity often have consequence when a new direct confrontation is provoked. The case of the MV Mavi Mamara in May 2010 was just such a case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palmer Report was all propaganda. They didn't even interview anyone on the boat. They got all their information, from the Israeli propaganda machine.

The fact is, the vessel was in international waters when Israeli commando's attacked. There is no law that allows you to board a vessel, sailing under the flag of a sovereign nation, in international waters. That's piracy. They were carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza and that was it. There was no resistance, no terrorists, no one but people who cared about humanity. And if you would like me to post the video of the American being shot, just say the word and I'll let you have it!

As far as the fishermen go, they were being shot at in Gazan territorial waters, where the IDF has no legal presence to be. How fucked do you have to be, to shoot at people fishing?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTUYivihoTE]Free Gaza Mov: Israeli shooting palestinian fishermen boats - YouTube[/ame]


Now here they are shooting at people farming!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQXecLyureE]Israeli Terrorism in Gaza - Farming Under Fire - YouTube[/ame]


That is fucked!

Billo really, your version of the Mavi Marmara is the TYPICAL Arab propaganda version of the event.

The vessel knew full well they would be boarded if they didn't comply with the Israelis.
They planned the whole thing before, so they could gain attention from the world.

And when they started beating the soldiers as they came down, what the fuck did they expect would happen when they started hitting armed Naval Special forces?

Again, you have to be blind not to know that the Mavi was a propaganda ship whos sole intention was to make a scene and gain attention from the world to vilify Israel.

So , why did they try to break the blockade knowing full well they would be boarded ??

 

[Lipush]

You say that's not it at all.

How do you know it is not the reason? I can tell from my knowledge discussion with Jews outside of Israel, that it is very much a reason for it.

In history, Jews have been known for at times to "sell themselves out", even turn their backs in their heritage, because it was a survival mechanism.

I know students in the united states keeping themselves out of Israel sympathizing, not because they are "rejecting" it, but because they simply are terrified of the anti-Israeli spirits surrounding them.

No, they don't want to be associated with a country that is turning more German with each passing day. You don't like the reference. Well, I don't like reading the following...

One of the top commanders in the Territories was quoted in Haaretz (Jan. 25) as saying that in order to prepare for potential battles in dense urban neighborhoods, the IDF must learn, if necessary, how the German army 'operated' in the Warsaw Ghetto.

...when I see shit like this...

a senior IDF officer proudly called, "in order to beat the Palestinians, let's be Judo-Nazis"?

...the comparison is a valid one. These are your own people, your own countryman, your beloved IDF, saying you need to be more like the nazis, in order to defeat the inhuman Palestinian's.

I've said this before and I'm going to say it again, you treat the Palestinian's, like the nazis treated the jews. And that is making jews all over the world, sick to their stomach.

Your comparison is what makes people sick in their stomach.

Those are people who shoot babies in their cribs, bomb buses filled with women and children, teach their young ones SINCE birth that the day of judgment would not come untill we're all dead, who SAY, PROUDLY so, that their killers are HEROES, the same people who kill Jews not only in Israel, but worldwide, who proudly announce that it's GOOD that Jews gather in Israel since it'll make them easier to kill, you compare THOSE people to the Jews of the 30's in Europe?

Did ANY Jew of that time sniped a newborn in a crib? Did ANY JEW burned down a German church, an European bus? Did any Jew teach his or her babies that civilians are legitimate target? did any Jew teach that the day of judgement won't arrive until the last Gentile is dead?

If we were like the Nazis, their would never have been even a slight CHANCE of Palestine ever being ABLE to exist in the FUTURE.

You're crazy if that is the kind of comparison you make.

You put holocaust victims to shame, comparing them with an invented nation that all it knows is to try and create a fabricate country on top of one that blooms and exists for decades.

 

[Billo_Really]

Billo really, your version of the Mavi Marmara is the TYPICAL Arab propaganda version of the event.

The vessel knew full well they would be boarded if they didn't comply with the Israelis.
They planned the whole thing before, so they could gain attention from the world.

And when they started beating the soldiers as they came down, what the fuck did they expect would happen when they started hitting armed Naval Special forces?

Again, you have to be blind not to know that the Mavi was a propaganda ship whos sole intention was to make a scene and gain attention from the world to vilify Israel.

So , why did they try to break the blockade knowing full well they would be boarded ??

You cannot board a vessel in international waters! Period. That is illegal.

And the bullshit propaganda, is coming from your side. There are videos of the actual event, that show what I'm saying is true. The only video that shows what you're saying, was a fake video of a similar ship, being passed of as the Mavi Mamara and that to, was debunked.


Here's the Israeli's doing it to another boat in international waters. I'm mean, who fuck do you people think you are?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpqnMrLv1bQ&feature=player_embedded]30th July Video Free Gaza news Is Israel guilty of piracy - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Lipush]

Billo_Really, et al,

Your posts are so disjointed and hard to follow, I don't know why I respond to them. It's like you deliberately make them is such away, that it takes extra work to weed out your point and respond to it. You include all these unecessary salutations, fragment my post and then do a data dump and call it a day!

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a lot of work trying to dig-out your individual points in order to respond.


(COMMENT)

What two?


(COMMENT)

The barriers are a means of non-lethal separation of Hostile Arab-Palestinians (HoAP) from targeting sovereign Israeli interests.

The Israel never said the Palestinian does not have the right to resist. It is a matter of how they "appropriately" resist that is controversial. Remembering that international law provides for the detention and punishment for HoAP that intentionally do harm.

No one says that the Palestinian does not have a prima facie case relative to Settlement issue. (Understanding that the settlement issue is not a crime of the same magnitude as murder, hijacking, piracy, and terrorism.)

Relative to the "fishing and farming" comment, these are blanket complaints with no specifics attached. I assume the fishing deals with the naval blockade of Gaza which is a logical extension of the security barrier. Given the "ends justifies the means" policy of the HoAP, and the established past criminal and terrorist behaviors demonstrated by the HoAP, such a blockage is a prudent security measure that quarantines the potential threat of the HoAP from this avenue of exploitation.


(COMMENT)

Absolutely NOT!!! This is in no way comparable to the MS Achille Lauro incident where Palestinian Terrorist killed an unarmed, wheelchair bound, American (Leon Klinghoffer) and then threw his body overboard.

This event (May 2010 MV Mavi Mamara) was a planned voyage with the mission of - intentional confrontation with the Israeli blockade over Gaza. The MV Mavi Mamara was a vessel known to have been involved with the Humanitarian Relief Fund in Turkish (IHH), an NGO with known terrorist ties. The MV Mavi Mamara had a known past history of smuggling arms for insurgent and terrorist groups. Its mission was no secret and widely publicized in print media and television coverage. When the ship was confronted by Israeli commandos, Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, the IHH Leader of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, was on board the MV Mavi Marmara and gave orders to the crew to resist the boarding party using knives, clubs, iron bars and axes; an action resulting in 9 fatalities. There were no summary executions. These were fatalities, in which radical activist, with suicidal tendencies, deliberately acted in threatening ways, provoking a lethal response. In fact Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, a lawyer, referred to them as martyrs.

The UN Palmer Committee on the Mavi Marmara Report was subsequently leaked to the NY Times. I would not discourage you from reading it, but I would like to call your attention to Pages 38 thru 45, beginning with Paragraph 67 and ending with Paragraph 82 (below).

82. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

SOURCE: Palmer Report (Strictly Confidential) in NYT

Inappropriate behaviors and a history of past criminal activity often have consequence when a new direct confrontation is provoked. The case of the MV Mavi Mamara in May 2010 was just such a case.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Palmer Report was all propaganda. They didn't even interview anyone on the boat. They got all their information, from the Israeli propaganda machine.

The fact is, the vessel was in international waters when Israeli commando's attacked. There is no law that allows you to board a vessel, sailing under the flag of a sovereign nation, in international waters. That's piracy. They were carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza and that was it. There was no resistance, no terrorists, no one but people who cared about humanity. And if you would like me to post the video of the American being shot, just say the word and I'll let you have it!

As far as the fishermen go, they were being shot at in Gazan territorial waters, where the IDF has no legal presence to be. How fucked do you have to be, to shoot at people fishing?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTUYivihoTE]Free Gaza Mov: Israeli shooting palestinian fishermen boats - YouTube[/ame]


Now here they are shooting at people farming!


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQXecLyureE]Israeli Terrorism in Gaza - Farming Under Fire - YouTube[/ame]


That is fucked!

Yeah, that is fucked.

Just as at much as it's fucked when their snipers shoot on OUR farmers.

Didn't hear you protesting that

 

[Billo_Really]

Your comparison is what makes people sick in their stomach.

Those are people who shoot babies in their cribs, bomb buses filled with women and children, teach their young ones SINCE birth that the day of judgment would not come untill we're all dead, who SAY, PROUDLY so, that their killers are HEROES, the same people who kill Jews not only in Israel, but worldwide, who proudly announce that it's GOOD that Jews gather in Israel since it'll make them easier to kill, you compare THOSE people to the Jews of the 30's in Europe?

Did ANY Jew of that time sniped a newborn in a crib? Did ANY JEW burned down a German church, an European bus? Did any Jew teach his or her babies that civilians are legitimate target? did any Jew teach that the day of judgement won't arrive until the last Gentile is dead?

If we were like the Nazis, their would never have been even a slight CHANCE of Palestine ever being ABLE to exist in the FUTURE.

You're crazy if that is the kind of comparison you make.

You put holocaust victims to shame, comparing them with an invented nation that all it knows is to try and create a fabricate country on top of one that blooms and exists for decades.

All you're offering is conjecture. I provided direct quotes from IDF commanders saying you need to be more like the nazis.

If the shoe fits...

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

You can board a boat in International Waters if it is trying to commit an illegal act. The boarding was to steer the boat to the port seeing as the crew were not going to do that themselves.

Here the passengers state their goal is to break the blockade or become martyrs trying.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSYjuDEZw1w]Evidence: IHH Leader Urges Men to Throw Israelis Overboard 30May2010 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Billo_Really]

Yeah, that is fucked.

Just as at much as it's fucked when their snipers shoot on OUR farmers.

Didn't hear you protesting that

Don't see you showing any proof of that.

 

[Lipush]

it'll make them easier to kill[/I], you compare THOSE people to the Jews of the 30's in Europe?

Did ANY Jew of that time sniped a newborn in a crib? Did ANY JEW burned down a German church, an European bus? Did any Jew teach his or her babies that civilians are legitimate target? did any Jew teach that the day of judgement won't arrive until the last Gentile is dead?

If we were like the Nazis, their would never have been even a slight CHANCE of Palestine ever being ABLE to exist in the FUTURE.

You're crazy if that is the kind of comparison you make.

You put holocaust victims to shame, comparing them with an invented nation that all it knows is to try and create a fabricate country on top of one that blooms and exists for decades.

All you're offering is conjecture. I provided direct quotes from IDF commanders saying you need to be more like the nazis.

If the shoe fits...

We don't need to be like the Nazis, the Palestinians believe in many things the Nazis believed in, and I don't think we should adapt the Palestinian lack of humanity.

I do believe that we constantly show hesitation and weakness. As long as we don't respect ourselves and our right to be here and exist, then we cannot expect others to respect us, either.

And yeah, there are IDF soldiers who say things, and there are those who say completely other things.

wonder why you chose to show only half truths?

 

[Lipush]

Yeah, that is fucked.

Just as at much as it's fucked when their snipers shoot on OUR farmers.

Didn't hear you protesting that

Don't see you showing any proof of that.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-3uFGEYZCI]???? ?????? ?? - Live shooting during report?? - YouTube[/ame]

Palestinian snipers shoot on innocent Israeli farmers in Ein Hashlosha.

 

[Billo_Really]

You can board a boat in International Waters if it is trying to commit an illegal act. The boarding was to steer the boat to the port seeing as the crew were not going to do that themselves.

Here the passengers state their goal is to break the blockade or become martyrs trying.

Evidence: IHH Leader Urges Men to Throw Israelis Overboard 30May2010 - YouTube

The illegal act, is the blockade itself. In fact, the blockade, is a war crime.

Show me where it say's you can board a vessel in international waters.

 

[Lipush]

IN THE VIDEO:Farmers calling "Call the IDF, they're shooting at us, we lie down here".

At the end of the video the farmer asks his friend to watch over his kids in case he gets a bullet

 

[Billo_Really]

???? ?????? ?? - Live shooting during report?? - YouTube

Palestinian snipers shoot on innocent Israeli farmers in Ein Hashlosha.

If it is what you say, then it's wrong. Unlike the videos I provided, you can't see whose shooting them.

However, since this is the first time I've seen the video, I'll do something you never do with me, which is give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word.

 

[Lipush]

???? ?????? ?? - Live shooting during report?? - YouTube

Palestinian snipers shoot on innocent Israeli farmers in Ein Hashlosha.

If it is what you say, then it's wrong. Unlike the videos I provided, you can't see whose shooting them.

However, since this is the first time I've seen the video, I'll do something you never do with me, which is give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word.

Wow. I feel giddy.

 

[Lipush]

Who else do you think will shoot on Israeli farmers in Ein Hashlosha? You don't need to take my word for it, it's using your head, nothing less

 

[Billo_Really]

Wow. I feel giddy.

I have a soft spot for jewish latina's.

 

[Billo_Really]

Who else do you think will shoot on Israeli farmers in Ein Hashlosha?

Oooh, let me think..................the Dutch?

 

[Lipush]

Who else do you think will shoot on Israeli farmers in Ein Hashlosha?

Oooh, let me think..................the Dutch?