Get Used to It: Israel Is Here to Stay

[ForeverYoung436]

"...

Where are we now?

Same place we were 47 years ago with an illegal occupation that needs to end. There's nothing to negotiate, nothing to agree on, just get your occupational forces and all those settler insurgents and completely vacate the Golan Heights, Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. That's the only option on the table..."

No.

That's the only answer on the table.

No surrender of the Golan.

No surrender of Jerusalem.

No surrender of the West Bank.

No surrender of Gaza.

Don't like that answer?

Then you must come and take them back, if you can.

Meanwhile, what's left of Rump Palestine continues to fragment and shrink, as a largely disinterested world continues to turn a blind eye, as it has throughout most of that timeframe.

I don't know about that "disinterested world" part. When Arabs are killed by the dozens in Iraq or Syria, the world is disinterested, because they were killed by other Arabs. But anything that happens in Israel/Palestine/the Holy Land interests the world out of all proportion, since it involves the Jews. Take this Board as an example. Most of the posters here have never set foot in Israel or even met a Jew in their lives, yet they are all experts on this particular situation in the world scene.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Same place we were 47 years ago with an illegal occupation that needs to end. There's nothing to negotiate, nothing to agree on, just get your occupational forces and all those settler insurgents and completely vacate the Golan Heights, Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. That's the only option on the table..."

No. That's the only answer on the table. No surrender of the Golan. No surrender of Jerusalem. No surrender of the West Bank. No surrender of Gaza. Don't like that answer? Then you must come and take them back, if you can. Meanwhile, what's left of Rump Palestine continues to fragment and shrink, as a largely disinterested world continues to turn a blind eye, as it has throughout most of that timeframe.

I don't know about that "disinterested world" part. When Arabs are killed by the dozens in Iraq or Syria, the world is disinterested, because they were killed by other Arabs. But anything that happens in Israel/Palestine/the Holy Land interests the world out of all proportion, since it involves the Jews. Take this Board as an example. Most of the posters here have never set foot in Israel or even met a Jew in their lives, yet they are all experts on this particular situation in the world scene.

Yep.

I edited my post before I saw that you'd already quoted it.

I changed that from 'disterested' to 'detached'.

'Detached', as in: not sufficiently 'vested' to participate in an Armed Intervention.

If a nation is not sufficiently roused to go to war, it is 'detached', in the context of war and peace and literal enforcement of international law by force of arms.

Translation: outside the domain of parts of Islam, nobody feels like going to war against Israel over a handful of crazy pissant Palestinians who have terrorized innocents outside their own theater of war for decades.

And that isn't going to change anytime soon.

That was the gist of where I was going with that.

As to never having stepped-foot in Israel, hell, I'm just as guilty of that as anyone else.

As to having met a Jew - my sister married one, and he and his extended family are nicely integrated into our own extended family and mix well - including talk of politics, etc. He has family outside Tel Aviv. What little feedback I get is third-hand (Tel Aviv to the bro-in-law to me) and one-sided, but I always make allowances for such in my own thinking (and posting) and don't let that drive my own contributions.

That third-hand info comes in handy during rational discussions about practical possibilities, but when the 'My Way or the Highway' godhood credentials surface on the opposite side of the fence - especially when their track-record and poker-hand are so weak - the counterpointing becomes less cerebral and more viscerally enjoyable.

Personally, I have no answers - but the trends are there for all to see, and the likely outcomes are mere extensions of cold, hard, calculating logic.

 

[RoccoR]

et al,

Yeah, OK!

OK, old man syndrome!

I don't know what the fuck that means.

(REFERENCE)

You need a little humor in here.

1. Old man syndrome
The condition elderly people suffer in the presence of younger people. Symptoms include but are not limited to refusal to lose to a younger person, refusal of being wrong, refusal of being at fault, and the urge to use age as justification for their actions, decisions, and opinions.

SOURCE: Urban Disctionary

Where are we now?

Same place we were 47 years ago with an illegal occupation that needs to end. There's nothing to negotiate, nothing to agree on, just get your occupational forces and all those settler insurgents and completely vacate the Golan Heights, Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem. That's the only option on the table.

I would think after almost a half-century with no country on the planet recognizing Israel's right to that land, it would be obvious. Israel needs to catch the clue, it is not your land and it never will be your land.

What's the allegation?

Israel is in violation of international law and doesn't give a damn about human rights.

(COMMENT)

Finally, a straight forward allegation.

I make the assumption here that we are talking about the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The State of Israel has not annexed or even attempted to annex any portion of the State of Palestine declared independent in 1988. The State of Israel has established such a set of barriers as to improve local and regional security conditions.

Israel seems resolved to undertake measures to prevent and combat HoAP efforts, in particular by denying access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:

• Restrain the Hostile Arab Palestinian (HoAP) from organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States, to include the State of Israel.

• The State of Israel, in accordance with our obligations under international law, in order to find, deny safe haven and bring to justice, on the basis of the principle of extradite or prosecute, any person who supports, facilitates, participates or attempts to participate in the financing, planning, preparation or perpetration of terrorist acts or provides safe havens - established such controls as to facilitate these objective.

• To prevent Piracy of vessels on the High Seas and murder of noncombatants.
• To prevent launching of rockets at noncombatants.
• To prevent Hijacking of commercial airliners and the murder of noncombatants.
• To prevent the assault by suicide bombers and the murder of noncombatants.
• To prevent the assembly and distribution of bombs and bomb making material used to murder noncombatants.
• To prevent the attack Israel's Embassies, Interests, And Officials Worldwide - And The Interests Of Its Allies

(TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE)

Israel does not deny that it has allowed parts of its own civilian population into the West Bank; to apply political pressure on the defiant HoAP government to sue for peace.

Israel, as the Occupying Power, in accordance with Articles 64 and 65 of GCIV, has imposed penalties against protected persons guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power or offenses which have caused the death of one or more persons.

Israel has arrested or neutralized persons who intended to do harm the Occupying Power, noncombatants or other innocence, providing such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offense committed.

Israel does not ignore such Human Rights obligations that have not been taken advantage of and manipulated to cause harm to Israel. However, it appears that the State of Israel does not grant the HoAP the right to obtain weapons and money people to wage an armed struggle. Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy, Jihadist and Fedayeen, or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the GCIV (Article 5).

Israel does not deny that where such HoAP private property was found to be used with intent to do harm to the Occupying Power, destruction was rendered absolutely necessary by military operations (Article 53).

SO, which particular Human Rights violations did you want to discuss?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Billo_Really]

Your posts are so disjointed and hard to follow, I don't know why I respond to them. It's like you deliberately make them is such away, that it takes extra work to weed out your point and respond to it. You include all these unecessary salutations, fragment my post and then do a data dump and call it a day!

Finally, a straight forward allegation.

I make the assumption here that we are talking about the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

There's no reason to assume. I stated the areas in my post and you're missing two.

The State of Israel has not annexed or even attempted to annex any portion of the State of Palestine declared independent in 1988.

Tell that to all the settlements they built in the West Bank. And you're starting the clock at the wrong time. 1967 is the proper starting point.

The State of Israel has established such a set of barriers as to improve local and regional security conditions.

Those barriers are the cause of all the violence.

Israel seems resolved to undertake measures to prevent and combat HoAP efforts, in particular by denying access to the means to carry out their attacks, to their targets and to the desired impact of their attacks:

Everyone has the right to resist the foreign occupation of their land.

The State of Israel, in accordance with our obligations under international law...

Israel doesn't do shit in accordance with international law.

Israel does not deny that it has allowed parts of its own civilian population into the West Bank

That's illegal, according to IHL.

Israel, as the Occupying Power, in accordance with Articles 64 and 65 of GCIV, has imposed penalties against protected persons guilty of espionage, of serious acts of sabotage against the military installations of the Occupying Power or offenses which have caused the death of one or more persons.

Is fishing and farming, acts of espionage?

Why are Palestinian's being shot at by the IDF, when they are farming and fishing?

Israel has arrested or neutralized persons who intended to do harm the Occupying Power, noncombatants or other innocence, providing such internment or imprisonment is proportionate to the offense committed.

Administrative detention, is a war crime.

SO, which particular Human Rights violations did you want to discuss?

I stated that above in my post. Why are you asking me that now?

This one got me particularly irritated...

To prevent Piracy of vessels on the High Seas and murder of noncombatants.

How do you have the nerve to list something like that, after what Israel did to the Mavi Mamara? They borded a vessel in international waters and summarily executed a 19 year old American. You don't call that piracy?

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't know about that "disinterested world" part. When Arabs are killed by the dozens in Iraq or Syria, the world is disinterested, because they were killed by other Arabs. But anything that happens in Israel/Palestine/the Holy Land interests the world out of all proportion, since it involves the Jews. Take this Board as an example. Most of the posters here have never set foot in Israel or even met a Jew in their lives, yet they are all experts on this particular situation in the world scene.

You don't have to be a chicken to know an egg.

 

[Billo_Really]

No.

That's the only answer on the table.

No surrender of the Golan.

No surrender of Jerusalem.

No surrender of the West Bank (beyond some minor and interim concessions on local autonomy).

No surrender of Gaza (beyond some minor and interim concessions on local autonomy).

Don't like that answer?

Then you must come and take them back by force of arms, if you can.

(one US-sponsored Security Council Veto on Intervention comin' right up)

(one US military intervention to aid Israel in case they start to lose, at US taxpayer expense [thank you for your contribution], sittin' on the back burner, already planned and warmed-up, ready to sortie)

Meanwhile, what's left of Rump Palestine continues to fragment and shrink, as a largely detached world continues to turn a blind eye, as it has throughout most of that timeframe.

Brave words and legal tom-fool-ery aside... the Battle for Palestine is long over... the Muslim-Arabs lost... the Israeli-Jews won.

Not if I was President. I'd end this thing in 90 days.

First I'd stop all weapons shipments to Israel.
Than I'd freeze all Israeli assets in US banks.
Then I'd outlaw AIPAC.
Then I'd submit a resolution to the UNSC telling Israel they got 90 days to get the fuck off Palestinian land.
On the 91st day, I'd send in the marines and drive those god-damn Israeli's back to Israel.
Then I'd set up a DMZ along the Green Line and shoot any mother-fucker that enters it from either side.​

Problem solved.

 

[Billo_Really]

But I'm not twisting what you're saying, I just misunderstood what you said in your post "You cannot move into a place and AUTOMATICALLY have more rights than the natives"

Anyway, this post clarified your position, I got it now.

Thank you.

I myself, have been guilty of that many times and it's not something I'll bust your balls over.

 

[Billo_Really]

The Arabs don't need any reason. Like snakes and sharks, they are born bloodthirsty. Get rid of the Jews and their addiction to violence will drive them into sectarian violence. Let one sect win and the desert bandits will go tribe against tribe or invade their Arab neighbors. This is their history, this is their DNA.

You're nuts! There's never been a violent baby born in the history of this planet.

They are taught to hate and you're a pretty good teacher of that.

 

[Billo_Really]

LOL in what world are you living in ?

You really think the Israelis are going to surrender to the great nation of Palestine, and just pick up and leave ??

Respecting international law is not surrendering.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Not if I was President. I'd end this thing in 90 days..."

But you're not President.

And you won't be ending this.

Neither will anybody who thinks like you in this context.

Next slide, please.

 

[Billo_Really]

But you're not President.

And you won't be ending this.

Neither will anybody who thinks like you in this context.

Next slide, please.

I'm sorry sir, you're gonna have to leave the theatre, we're getting complaints from the other patrons.

 

[Beachboy]

Get Used to It: Israel Is Here to Stay​

October 24, 2012
By David Solway

---

For it is almost inconceivable that a few million citizens of a newly established nation could successfully resist the military onslaught of vastly larger armies time and again. It must also contend against the enmity of its nominal allies in the West, the propaganda campaigns of the world’s major NGOs and opinion-forming bodies, the lies and slanders of the political and media elites, the ignorance of multitudes, and the specter of daily terror. It is equally inconceivable that this same beleaguered nation could at the same time become one of the world’s leading innovators in science, technology, medicine and agriculture, offering benefits to mankind out of all proportion to its numbers and circumstances—while reaping, for the most part, resentment, envy and violence.

For some, the continued existence of Israel is a sign of divine solicitude; for others, of human fortitude, hope and commitment at its most incandescent. But whatever the reason for this rarest of phenomena, the emergence of the theoretically impossible, it is a safe bet that Israel will still be around when its adversaries and detractors have succumbed to their own contradictions and dilemmas. Get used to it. Israel is here to stay.

Get Used to It: Israel Is Here to Stay

​

Excellent thread! As a protestant, a Presbyterian, to become a member or our church we had to attend a Roman Catholic Mass, and a Jewish Synagog.

Got to tell you. You do not hear much from us Presbyterians, but we are right there supporting Israel. It is just common sense based upon the facts. (With 1,952,287 members and 21,064 ordained ministers in 10,657 congregations at the end of 2011).

Let the Methodists speak for themselves, but I think you will find them behind Israel as well. (As of 2009, worldwide membership was about 12 million: 7.7 million in the United States and Canada, and 4.4 million in Africa, Asia and Europe).

 

[Lipush]

LOL in what world are you living in ?

You really think the Israelis are going to surrender to the great nation of Palestine, and just pick up and leave ??

Respecting international law is not surrendering.

It is when you're surrounded by assholes who want you gone and you give up every advantage you have.

 

[Billo_Really]

It is when you're surrounded by assholes who want you gone and you give up every advantage you have.

It doesn't work that way. You either obey the law, or you don't. If you do, you won't be surrounded by assholes. And if you don't, it's only a matter of time before you're forced to.

BTW, those assholes, just want you gone from their land, not from the earth.

 

[Billo_Really]

I do find it interesting that Sigmond Freud blamed zionists for arab hostilities.

In February 1930 Freud was asked, as a distinguished Jew, to contribute to a petition condemning Arab riots of 1929, in which over a hundred Jewish settlers were killed. This was his reply:

Letter to the Keren Hajessod (Dr. Chaim Koffler)

Vienna: 26 February 1930

Dear Sir,

I cannot do as you wish. I am unable to overcome my aversion to burdening the public with my name, and even the present critical time does not seem to me to warrant it. Whoever wants to influence the masses must give them something rousing and inflammatory and my sober judgement of Zionism does not permit this. I certainly sympathise with its goals, am proud of our University in Jerusalem and am delighted with our settlement’s prosperity. But, on the other hand, I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state, nor that the Christian and Islamic worlds would ever be prepared to have their holy places under Jewish care. It would have seemed more sensible to me to establish a Jewish homeland on a less historically-burdened land. But I know that such a rational viewpoint would never have gained the enthusiasm of the masses and the financial support of the wealthy. I concede with sorrow that the baseless fanaticism of our people is in part to be blamed for the awakening of Arab distrust. I can raise no sympathy at all for the misdirected piety which transforms a piece of a Herodian wall into a national relic, thereby offending the feelings of the natives.

Your obediant servant,

Freud

There seems to be a lot of famous jews, who can't stand zionists.

I wonder why that is? Misdirected piety? You can see that in almost every post defending Israel.

 

[Lipush]

It is when you're surrounded by assholes who want you gone and you give up every advantage you have.

It doesn't work that way.

It's the middle east.

It works ONLY in that way.

 

[Lipush]

I do find it interesting that Sigmond Freud blamed zionists for arab hostilities.

In February 1930 Freud was asked, as a distinguTיished Jew, to contribute to a petition condemning Arab riots of 1929, in which over a hundred Jewish settlers were killed. This was his reply:

Letter to the Keren Hajessod (Dr. Chaim Koffler)

Vienna: 26 February 1930

Dear Sir,

I cannot do as you wish. I am unable to overcome my aversion to burdening the public with my name, and even the present critical time does not seem to me to warrant it. Whoever wants to influence the masses must give them something rousing and inflammatory and my sober judgement of Zionism does not permit this. I certainly sympathise with its goals, am proud of our University in Jerusalem and am delighted with our settlement’s prosperity. But, on the other hand, I do not think that Palestine could ever become a Jewish state, nor that the Christian and Islamic worlds would ever be prepared to have their holy places under Jewish care. It would have seemed more sensible to me to establish a Jewish homeland on a less historically-burdened land. But I know that such a rational viewpoint would never have gained the enthusiasm of the masses and the financial support of the wealthy. I concede with sorrow that the baseless fanaticism of our people is in part to be blamed for the awakening of Arab distrust. I can raise no sympathy at all for the misdirected piety which transforms a piece of a Herodian wall into a national relic, thereby offending the feelings of the natives.

Your obediant servant,

Freud

There seems to be a lot of famous jews, who can't stand zionists.

I wonder why that is? Misdirected piety? You can see that in almost every post defending Israel.

There are Jews worldwide who believe they can get the love and appreciation of the Gentiles by turning a back on their own nation.

Does not come as a surprise.

 

[Billo_Really]

There are Jews worldwide who believe they can get the love and appreciation of the Gentiles by turning a back on their own nation.

Does not come as a surprise.

That's not it at all. They don't want to be associated with a racist, apartheid regime, that doesn't give a shit about human rights and international law.

Ergo, Israel today, doesn't jive with their jewry.

 

[Lipush]

There are Jews worldwide who believe they can get the love and appreciation of the Gentiles by turning a back on their own nation.

Does not come as a surprise.

That's not it at all. They don't want to be associated with a racist, apartheid regime, that doesn't give a shit about human rights and international law.

Ergo, Israel today, doesn't jive with their jewry.

You say that's not it at all.

How do you know it is not the reason? I can tell from my knowledge discussion with Jews outside of Israel, that it is very much a reason for it.

In history, Jews have been known for at times to "sell themselves out", even turn their backs in their heritage, because it was a survival mechanism.

I know students in the united states keeping themselves out of Israel sympathizing, not because they are "rejecting" it, but because they simply are terrified of the anti-Israeli spirits surrounding them.

 

[RoccoR]

Billo_Really, et al,

Your posts are so disjointed and hard to follow, I don't know why I respond to them. It's like you deliberately make them is such away, that it takes extra work to weed out your point and respond to it. You include all these unecessary salutations, fragment my post and then do a data dump and call it a day!

(COMMENT)

Yes, it is a lot of work trying to dig-out your individual points in order to respond.

Finally, a straight forward allegation.

I make the assumption here that we are talking about the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

There's no reason to assume. I stated the areas in my post and you're missing two.

(COMMENT)

What two?

The State of Israel has not annexed or even attempted to annex any portion of the State of Palestine declared independent in 1988.

Tell that to all the settlements they built in the West Bank. And you're starting the clock at the wrong time. 1967 is the proper starting point.

Those barriers are the cause of all the violence.

Everyone has the right to resist the foreign occupation of their land.

Israel doesn't do shit in accordance with international law.

That's illegal, according to IHL.

Is fishing and farming, acts of espionage?

Why are Palestinian's being shot at by the IDF, when they are farming and fishing?

Administrative detention, is a war crime.

(COMMENT)

The barriers are a means of non-lethal separation of Hostile Arab-Palestinians (HoAP) from targeting sovereign Israeli interests.

The Israel never said the Palestinian does not have the right to resist. It is a matter of how they "appropriately" resist that is controversial. Remembering that international law provides for the detention and punishment for HoAP that intentionally do harm.

No one says that the Palestinian does not have a prima facie case relative to Settlement issue. (Understanding that the settlement issue is not a crime of the same magnitude as murder, hijacking, piracy, and terrorism.)

Relative to the "fishing and farming" comment, these are blanket complaints with no specifics attached. I assume the fishing deals with the naval blockade of Gaza which is a logical extension of the security barrier. Given the "ends justifies the means" policy of the HoAP, and the established past criminal and terrorist behaviors demonstrated by the HoAP, such a blockage is a prudent security measure that quarantines the potential threat of the HoAP from this avenue of exploitation.

This one got me particularly irritated...

To prevent Piracy of vessels on the High Seas and murder of noncombatants.

How do you have the nerve to list something like that, after what Israel did to the Mavi Mamara? They borded a vessel in international waters and summarily executed a 19 year old American. You don't call that piracy?

(COMMENT)

Absolutely NOT!!! This is in no way comparable to the MS Achille Lauro incident where Palestinian Terrorist killed an unarmed, wheelchair bound, American (Leon Klinghoffer) and then threw his body overboard.

This event (May 2010 MV Mavi Mamara) was a planned voyage with the mission of - intentional confrontation with the Israeli blockade over Gaza. The MV Mavi Mamara was a vessel known to have been involved with the Humanitarian Relief Fund in Turkish (IHH), an NGO with known terrorist ties. The MV Mavi Mamara had a known past history of smuggling arms for insurgent and terrorist groups. Its mission was no secret and widely publicized in print media and television coverage. When the ship was confronted by Israeli commandos, Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, the IHH Leader of the Gaza Freedom Flotilla, was on board the MV Mavi Marmara and gave orders to the crew to resist the boarding party using knives, clubs, iron bars and axes; an action resulting in 9 fatalities. There were no summary executions. These were fatalities, in which radical activist, with suicidal tendencies, deliberately acted in threatening ways, provoking a lethal response. In fact Fehmi Bülent Yıldırım, a lawyer, referred to them as martyrs.

The UN Palmer Committee on the Mavi Marmara Report was subsequently leaked to the NY Times. I would not discourage you from reading it, but I would like to call your attention to Pages 38 thru 45, beginning with Paragraph 67 and ending with Paragraph 82 (below).

82. The fundamental principle of the freedom of navigation on the high seas is subject to only certain limited exceptions under international law. Israel faces a real threat to its security from militant groups in Gaza. The naval blockade was imposed as a legitimate security measure in order to prevent weapons from entering Gaza by sea and its implementation complied with the requirements of international law.

SOURCE: Palmer Report (Strictly Confidential) in NYT

Inappropriate behaviors and a history of past criminal activity often have consequence when a new direct confrontation is provoked. The case of the MV Mavi Mamara in May 2010 was just such a case.

Most Respectfully,
R