Get Used to It: Israel Is Here to Stay

[PrometheusBound]

It will become clear if you remember that Billo's idea of 'starting a conversation' is a tirade of vile abuse.

That wasn't a very nice thing to say.

Sam Kinison was male chauvinist, xenophobic, and homophobic. He was not your kind of guy. He was my kind of guy!

 

[PrometheusBound]

He got married and killed himself. See what happens when you get married!

Well, he was the most monogamous of all the WWII leaders. Everyone else had their stable of bitches and war groupies. All Adolf had, was Eva. And maybe his aunt, in his youth.

The Swishy Swastiker had plenty of boytoys supplied by the Hitler Youth.

 

[PrometheusBound]

georgephillip, et al,

Well!

With the exception of 1973, when did the Arabs initiate hostilities with Israel?
BTW, your "might makes right" and the "right of conquest" expired in 1949. If you honestly believe Jews are above international law, you will need to find modern arguments to justify it.

(COMMENT)

Do you want to start with the real Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Black Hand, or the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades of today?

Do you want to start with the 1948 conflict, or the call for a new Intifada today?

If you want to talk about being above the law, do you want to start with the suicide bombings, the piracy on the high seas, the various massacres, the hijackings of aircraft, armed attacks --- where do you want to start?

If you want to talk about international law, do you want to address all the various violations against organizing, instigating, facilitating, participating in, financing, encouraging or tolerating terrorist activities and to take appropriate practical measures to ensure that our respective territories are not used for terrorist installations or training camps, or for the preparation or organization of terrorist acts intended to be committed against other States or their citizens; OR, would you like to talk about the bomb makers like Samer Issawi, a member of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, who was arrested by the Israeli army in Ramallah, for bomb making, during the Second Intifada?

How would you like to approach the issue?

Most Respectfully,
R

It is a sign of full-blown Dhimmitude that anyone would be anti-Zionist after 9/11.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Ahhhh... but Hitler wasn't taking-back his old spiritual and ancestral homeland.

It doesn't matter what excuse you use to justify your actions, acquiring land by force has been outlawed for the last 60 years.

But it seems Israel is determined to turn back the clock?

Just as you have back to September 10, 2001.

 

[PrometheusBound]

Those arab army's went in to protect the civil rights of the indigenous arab population, that was being systematically stripped from them as more zionists migrated into the area. They were basically trying to do, what the British should have done, which was restore order.

Dude you have no idea what you're talking about. Arabs in fact were the biggest deniers of the existence of Palestine or a Palestinian people. The main reason they attacked Israel was always and only to destroy THE JEWISH STATE and carve the proceeds up between themselves.

Proof of that is when Jordan and Egypt controlled West Bank and Gaza for 20 years from 1948 to 1967 not a single Arab or Palestinian mentioned the word "Palestine".

Let us hear what other Arabs have said:

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

It probably all belongs to the Kurds because Saladin took Jerusalem from the Crusaders.

 

[Kondor3]

"...It probably all belongs to the Kurds because Saladin took Jerusalem from the Crusaders."

Belongs to the Kurds? No whey!

 

[Billo_Really]

Just as you have back to September 10, 2001.

And your point is what?

 

[Billo_Really]

Dude you have no idea what you're talking about. Arabs in fact were the biggest deniers of the existence of Palestine or a Palestinian people. The main reason they attacked Israel was always and only to destroy THE JEWISH STATE and carve the proceeds up between themselves.

The arabs attacked to preserve the "proceeds" arabs already had (and had been enjoying) for generations.

Proof of that is when Jordan and Egypt controlled West Bank and Gaza for 20 years from 1948 to 1967 not a single Arab or Palestinian mentioned the word "Palestine".

Let me get this straight, you're saying the reasons the arabs attacked in 1948, was because of what can found between the years '48 to '67?

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Let us hear what other Arabs have said:

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

Well, if you're going to quote arabs, then I'm going to quote a zionist!

A famous humanist warning fellow zionists migrating into the area known as Palestine:

the settlers must under no circumstances arouse the wrath of the natives ... 'Yet what do our brethren do in Palestine? Just the very opposite! Serfs they were in the lands of the Diaspora and suddenly they find themselves in unrestricted freedom and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination ...'
- Ahad Ha'am

That's why they attacked!

 

[Roudy]

Dude you have no idea what you're talking about. Arabs in fact were the biggest deniers of the existence of Palestine or a Palestinian people. The main reason they attacked Israel was always and only to destroy THE JEWISH STATE and carve the proceeds up between themselves.

The arabs attacked to preserve the "proceeds" arabs already had (and had been enjoying) for generations.

Proof of that is when Jordan and Egypt controlled West Bank and Gaza for 20 years from 1948 to 1967 not a single Arab or Palestinian mentioned the word "Palestine".

Let me get this straight, you're saying the reasons the arabs attacked in 1948, was because of what can found between the years '48 to '67?

Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Let us hear what other Arabs have said:

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it".
- Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, Syrian Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937 -

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not".
- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian, 1946 -

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but Southern Syria".
- Representant of Saudi Arabia at the United Nations, 1956 -

What other Arabs declared after the Six-Day War:

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

Well, if you're going to quote arabs, then I'm going to quote a zionist!

A famous humanist warning fellow zionists migrating into the area known as Palestine:

the settlers must under no circumstances arouse the wrath of the natives ... 'Yet what do our brethren do in Palestine? Just the very opposite! Serfs they were in the lands of the Diaspora and suddenly they find themselves in unrestricted freedom and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination ...'
- Ahad Ha'am

That's why they attacked!

Bill unreally:

The arabs attacked to preserve the "proceeds" arabs already had (and had been enjoying) for generations.

The Arabs had nothing. The land belonged to the Turkish Ottoman Empire for 700 years, and then after their collapse after WWI it was controlled by the British and French.

That's why they attacked!

No it's not. Let me repeat, the neighboring Arab states attacked the newly formed state of Israel with the full intention of destroying it, not to create a Palestine. After 1948 they ended up controlling the West Bank and Gaza for 20 years, but still no one uttered the word Palestine. Perhaps because it would cause laughter. The intention from the very beginning is to remove Jewish presence and control over those lands.

 

[Billo_Really]

Then explain the UN sitting still for the acquisition by the Soviet Union of all of the terroritories that eventually comprised the Warsaw Pact (Poland, East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, Albania), and then installing friendly puppet governments in those lands to act as a large-scale buffer against The West.

That occured "during" WWII.

Then explain...

* Argentina, trying to take the Falklands
* Iraq, trying to take Kuwait (UN intervention)
* Morocco taking Western Sahara from the Spanish
* North Vietnam taking South Vietnam
* North Korea trying to take South Korea (UN intervention)
* Indonesia taking East Timor from the Portugese
* China, taking Tibet
* Indonesia, taking Dutch New Guinea

...very few of which triggered any sort of UN response, and most of which were left to the contestants to fight-out, and, in cases where the foreign aggressor won-out, the land-grabs were allowed to remain intact, without effective UN intervention.

Those were all illegal. You even mentioned, the UN intervened in a couple of them. Why do you think they did that? It wasn't because they just happened to be bored that day?

If you believe that Territorial Conquest is a thing of the past, and that the UN Charter effectively guards against this, then you are quite mistaken - but, in reality, you know better, don't you?

Effectively "guarding" against that, requires the cooperation of all member states. Cooperation, the member state of Israel, refuses to give.

Look at it this way... just about everybody else on the face of the planet managed to grab enough land to support themselves before this so-called and farcical Prohibition went into effect;

It's not a "farcical Prohibition", it's the basic principle of international law. Have you ever heard of the Nuremburg Principles?

the Jews just came to the land-grab table after the game-clock had wound-down, and are determined to have their turn at-bat, in order to preserve their people.

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's done respecting the inalienable rights of the indigenous population of arabs living in that area for generations.

If we consider the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be a Civil War within the region known as Palestine, then, we can safely accord to that conflict the same UN-hands-off approach that we saw in Vietnam and other civil wars that have occurred since the end of WWII.

I'm sorry, but it's not "considered" a civil war.

It is legally defined as a belligerent "occupation". A war is between two opposing army's. In the case of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, you have on one side, the most militarized country on the planet and on the other, an entire population of people that are not even allowed to have weapons to defend themselves.

Yes, we all understand the rationale behind it.

You just don't like it.

When most of the 'conquerers' listed above have surrendered their conquered territories and been sanctioned appropriately and paid compensation, then you will have a case.

I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. IHL treats war crimes, as separate entities from all other crimes. They did this deliberately so no one can say, "I'm just doing what he did! He got away with it, why can't I?" Crimes against humanity, are unacceptable at any time, by any one, for any reason. Period. There is no derrogoration for this.

A case, at least, in which consistent treatment across the board is on your side.

So you're saying "your side", is against "consistant treatment"?

You do realize all that talk of a "chosen" people, is bullshit, don't you?

Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. Including the Pals.

No. Just determined to carve-out a homeland for themselves after 6,000,000 of them were slaughtered. Regardless of what the rest of the world (who already have their land) thinks. Determined, as well, to be treated no differently than any other Civil War in which the UN chooses not to intervene. This is an internal struggle between two parties for control of an entire region, not a land-grab between sovereign States, despite last year's UN General Assembly Johnny-come-lately sleight-of-hand about Palestinian Statehood.

Well, they way you're carving out that homeland, is by shitting on the memory of all those who perished during the Holocaust. Because IHL, the United Nations, Nuremburg Principles and subsequent Geneva Conventions, have all been written and created to prevent another Holocaust. So when you violate them, you are compromising their intent and making the lives of all Holocaust victims, to have died in vain.

 

[Billo_Really]

Bill unreally:

The Arabs had nothing. The land belonged to the Turkish Ottoman Empire for 700 years, and then after their collapse after WWI it was controlled by the British and French.

No it's not. Let me repeat, the neighboring Arab states attacked the newly formed state of Israel with the full intention of destroying it, not to create a Palestine. After 1948 they ended up controlling the West Bank and Gaza for 20 years, but still no one uttered the word Palestine. Perhaps because it would cause laughter. The intention from the very beginning is to remove Jewish presence and control over those lands.

It doesn't matter what they "utter".

You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

 

[toastman]

Bill unreally:

The Arabs had nothing. The land belonged to the Turkish Ottoman Empire for 700 years, and then after their collapse after WWI it was controlled by the British and French.

No it's not. Let me repeat, the neighboring Arab states attacked the newly formed state of Israel with the full intention of destroying it, not to create a Palestine. After 1948 they ended up controlling the West Bank and Gaza for 20 years, but still no one uttered the word Palestine. Perhaps because it would cause laughter. The intention from the very beginning is to remove Jewish presence and control over those lands.

It doesn't matter what they "utter".

You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

I don't recall that ever being the case before Israel declared Independence

 

[Roudy]

Bill unreally:

The Arabs had nothing. The land belonged to the Turkish Ottoman Empire for 700 years, and then after their collapse after WWI it was controlled by the British and French.

No it's not. Let me repeat, the neighboring Arab states attacked the newly formed state of Israel with the full intention of destroying it, not to create a Palestine. After 1948 they ended up controlling the West Bank and Gaza for 20 years, but still no one uttered the word Palestine. Perhaps because it would cause laughter. The intention from the very beginning is to remove Jewish presence and control over those lands.

It doesn't matter what they "utter".

You cannot move into an area and automatically have more rights than the people already living there.

The "people" already there weren't already there. They were invaders and squatters from neighboring Arab lands mostly.

 

[Billo_Really]

The "people" already there weren't already there. They were invaders and squatters from neighboring Arab lands mostly.

First off, migration records for that period clearly show the majority of people moving into the area were zionists, not arabs.





Palestinian arabs were already living there with Palestinian jews. And of all the indigenous residents of that area, arabs made up 70% of the land owners.





So no, they didn't come in from other areas. But I do think you did and I don't think the other area was on planet earth. Because I've shown you the comments from a zionist living at that time, warning migrating jews not to "incur the rath of the natives", then saying how the zionists were treating them like shit and bragging about it, yet you keep on pushing that ridiculous story. Even after I've shown you the number of people migrating into the area and the land records at that time, you completely refuse to alter your beliefs. Face it, you've been shown evidence that refutes your claim.

 

[Billo_Really]

I don't recall that ever being the case before Israel declared Independence

What do you think created all the hostility?

People don't get mad for no reason!

 

[toastman]

I don't recall that ever being the case before Israel declared Independence

What do you think created all the hostility?

People don't get mad for no reason!

I might have misunderstood your original post.

You're saying that when the Zionists arrived to Mandatory Palestine, that they automatically had more right then the Palestinian Arabs ?

 

[Peterf]

I don't recall that ever being the case before Israel declared Independence

What do you think created all the hostility?

People don't get mad for no reason!

I've heard that sort of argument before: "The Jews must be really bad people, otherwise the Germans would not have wanted to kill them all." It never worked with me.

People do get mad for any reason and no reason. Particularly Muslims. Many went mad with rage because a writer called Salman Rushdie wrote a book they didn't like.

 

[Billo_Really]

I've heard that sort of argument before: "The Jews must be really bad people, otherwise the Germans would not have wanted to kill them all." It never worked with me.

That was not the argument I was making and that has nothing to do with this discussion. And you interjecting that into this discussion, shows just how disengenous you are and to what lengths you'll go to make emotional pleas to the reader that arabs are bad.

People do get mad for any reason and no reason. Particularly Muslims. Many went mad with rage because a writer called Salman Rushdie wrote a book they didn't like.

I thought it was ridiculous they went off over some book, but it does prove they went off over external forces. That they didn't get that pissed for no reason at all.

 

[Billo_Really]

I might have misunderstood your original post.

You're saying that when the Zionists arrived to Mandatory Palestine, that they automatically had more right then the Palestinian Arabs ?

I'm saying the opposite of that. That they didn't have more rights than Palestinian Arabs who were already living there. And for that matter, they didn't have more rights than Palestinian Jews who were already living there.

I don't know what so confusing about this very simple principle? If you moved into a neighborhood, would you think you had more rights than the current homeowners in said neighborhood?

 

[P F Tinmore]

I might have misunderstood your original post.

You're saying that when the Zionists arrived to Mandatory Palestine, that they automatically had more right then the Palestinian Arabs ?

I'm saying the opposite of that. That they didn't have more rights than Palestinian Arabs who were already living there. And for that matter, they didn't have more rights than Palestinian Jews who were already living there.

I don't know what so confusing about this very simple principle? If you moved into a neighborhood, would you think you had more rights than the current homeowners in said neighborhood?

Indeed, the Zionists violated the rights of the native Jews.