Gun culture or parenting culture?

[Skull Pilot]

defining a set of rules is not telling people how to live.

IMO the only thing people should be sent to prison for are violent crimes people who are violent need to be separated from the rest of us

and from what I gather you want people to make what YOU think are good decisions

Yes, actually, it is.

If you tell people they can walk naked around the streets, then you're preventing them walking naked around the streets. This is telling them that they can't live by walking naked around the streets.

Well prisons are used for much, much more than just violent crimes. People feel that other offenses are also worthy of taking away someone's liberty.

And from what you gather.... so, this isn't about me, this is about you?

I would never tell anyone that.

and you seem not to understand that committing a crime against another person is nothing but the criminal forcing their will on their victim

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusions that I seem not to understand.

You might not tell someone that, but thems the laws, and there are plenty of laws which basically tell people how to act. There's a reason for many of them, that we live in a society and in order for people to live peacefully together in society, people have to respect each other, and follow certain rules in order not to piss others off.

the only rule we really need is that no one is allowed to force their will on another

yet that is exactly what you want to do.

Because it's impossible not to. That's life. The question is, is the person, or people, who do this, doing the right thing or not doing the right thing?

We all live in society. Society sets rules. It sets rules by law and it sets rules by morals and it sets rules by other means. You don't have to like it and you don't have to accept it, but it's there. And I know it's there because I've lived in various countries on three continents and seen the different rules and different ways of life.

Anarchy is the absence of rules. But with anarchy comes people trying to grab power. You can't have the power vacuum that you seem to want to set up. Someone will always come to the fore and tell others what to do.

Again, you don't have to accept this is the truth, but it is none the less.

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, actually, it is.

If you tell people they can walk naked around the streets, then you're preventing them walking naked around the streets. This is telling them that they can't live by walking naked around the streets.

Well prisons are used for much, much more than just violent crimes. People feel that other offenses are also worthy of taking away someone's liberty.

And from what you gather.... so, this isn't about me, this is about you?

I would never tell anyone that.

and you seem not to understand that committing a crime against another person is nothing but the criminal forcing their will on their victim

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusions that I seem not to understand.

You might not tell someone that, but thems the laws, and there are plenty of laws which basically tell people how to act. There's a reason for many of them, that we live in a society and in order for people to live peacefully together in society, people have to respect each other, and follow certain rules in order not to piss others off.

the only rule we really need is that no one is allowed to force their will on another

yet that is exactly what you want to do.

Because it's impossible not to. That's life. The question is, is the person, or people, who do this, doing the right thing or not doing the right thing?

We all live in society. Society sets rules. It sets rules by law and it sets rules by morals and it sets rules by other means. You don't have to like it and you don't have to accept it, but it's there. And I know it's there because I've lived in various countries on three continents and seen the different rules and different ways of life.

Anarchy is the absence of rules. But with anarchy comes people trying to grab power. You can't have the power vacuum that you seem to want to set up. Someone will always come to the fore and tell others what to do.

Again, you don't have to accept this is the truth, but it is none the less.

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I would never tell anyone that.

and you seem not to understand that committing a crime against another person is nothing but the criminal forcing their will on their victim

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusions that I seem not to understand.

You might not tell someone that, but thems the laws, and there are plenty of laws which basically tell people how to act. There's a reason for many of them, that we live in a society and in order for people to live peacefully together in society, people have to respect each other, and follow certain rules in order not to piss others off.

the only rule we really need is that no one is allowed to force their will on another

yet that is exactly what you want to do.

Because it's impossible not to. That's life. The question is, is the person, or people, who do this, doing the right thing or not doing the right thing?

We all live in society. Society sets rules. It sets rules by law and it sets rules by morals and it sets rules by other means. You don't have to like it and you don't have to accept it, but it's there. And I know it's there because I've lived in various countries on three continents and seen the different rules and different ways of life.

Anarchy is the absence of rules. But with anarchy comes people trying to grab power. You can't have the power vacuum that you seem to want to set up. Someone will always come to the fore and tell others what to do.

Again, you don't have to accept this is the truth, but it is none the less.

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

so we settle for your government social engineering and manipulation via taxes?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I'm not sure how you've come to the conclusions that I seem not to understand.

You might not tell someone that, but thems the laws, and there are plenty of laws which basically tell people how to act. There's a reason for many of them, that we live in a society and in order for people to live peacefully together in society, people have to respect each other, and follow certain rules in order not to piss others off.

the only rule we really need is that no one is allowed to force their will on another

yet that is exactly what you want to do.

Because it's impossible not to. That's life. The question is, is the person, or people, who do this, doing the right thing or not doing the right thing?

We all live in society. Society sets rules. It sets rules by law and it sets rules by morals and it sets rules by other means. You don't have to like it and you don't have to accept it, but it's there. And I know it's there because I've lived in various countries on three continents and seen the different rules and different ways of life.

Anarchy is the absence of rules. But with anarchy comes people trying to grab power. You can't have the power vacuum that you seem to want to set up. Someone will always come to the fore and tell others what to do.

Again, you don't have to accept this is the truth, but it is none the less.

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

so we settle for your government social engineering and manipulation via taxes?

Imagine you're a teacher in a school, and you have a naughty kid. What do you do? Do you have expectations about their level of behavior and then force them to accept such levels of behavior, using punishment when they don't reach those levels of behavior, or do you let them do what they want?

Why do you teach kids how to behave "properly"? We do so because we have expectations about how children should behave, and we also have expectations about how adults should behave too. That's why there are laws. They set out those expectations and then they punish those who go beyond those expectations.

Personally I know what sort of society I want to live in. I've spent time in South Africa, and the place is scary. I wouldn't want to live in a place with 8 times more murder and crime than the US. Even for me the US is more dangerous than it should be. Yes, there are differences between areas, but that doesn't mean it's the sort of society I want to live in.

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

Okay, it's never going to be 100%. but there are better and worse places.

Why is Louisiana the murder and prison population capital of the US? Almost certainly because the ideas that you're espousing are more prevalent in places like Louisiana than in places like the North East.

The perfect society isn't going to exist. You have to start basing things in reality, and from there try and make things better. You can call it social engineering, I'm not totally sure you understand what, exactly, my thoughts on this are, a lot of my thoughts are simply about education. I'm not the sort of person who wants to force people to be something. I'm the sort who wants to educated them so they're more likely to be like this.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

And what country has those things?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

And what country has those things?

I went to Sweden a few years back, and every time I got close to a crossing on the road, cars were stopping. They could easily have made it through before I even got there, but they stopped for me.

I went to Japan too, I illegally crossed the road because I wanted to go to the shop on the other side and there was no crossing. Some guy on a pushbike stopped because I was crossing the road, even though, again, he could have carried on without even disturbing me.

 

[Skull Pilot]

the only rule we really need is that no one is allowed to force their will on another

yet that is exactly what you want to do.

Because it's impossible not to. That's life. The question is, is the person, or people, who do this, doing the right thing or not doing the right thing?

We all live in society. Society sets rules. It sets rules by law and it sets rules by morals and it sets rules by other means. You don't have to like it and you don't have to accept it, but it's there. And I know it's there because I've lived in various countries on three continents and seen the different rules and different ways of life.

Anarchy is the absence of rules. But with anarchy comes people trying to grab power. You can't have the power vacuum that you seem to want to set up. Someone will always come to the fore and tell others what to do.

Again, you don't have to accept this is the truth, but it is none the less.

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

so we settle for your government social engineering and manipulation via taxes?

Imagine you're a teacher in a school, and you have a naughty kid. What do you do? Do you have expectations about their level of behavior and then force them to accept such levels of behavior, using punishment when they don't reach those levels of behavior, or do you let them do what they want?

Why do you teach kids how to behave "properly"? We do so because we have expectations about how children should behave, and we also have expectations about how adults should behave too. That's why there are laws. They set out those expectations and then they punish those who go beyond those expectations.

Personally I know what sort of society I want to live in. I've spent time in South Africa, and the place is scary. I wouldn't want to live in a place with 8 times more murder and crime than the US. Even for me the US is more dangerous than it should be. Yes, there are differences between areas, but that doesn't mean it's the sort of society I want to live in.

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

Okay, it's never going to be 100%. but there are better and worse places.

Why is Louisiana the murder and prison population capital of the US? Almost certainly because the ideas that you're espousing are more prevalent in places like Louisiana than in places like the North East.

The perfect society isn't going to exist. You have to start basing things in reality, and from there try and make things better. You can call it social engineering, I'm not totally sure you understand what, exactly, my thoughts on this are, a lot of my thoughts are simply about education. I'm not the sort of person who wants to force people to be something. I'm the sort who wants to educated them so they're more likely to be like this.

why don't we talk about adults instead of kids because your desire to control doesn't stop at children

and regardless of the school kid analogy the teachers have the permission of the parents to do what they do those parents who refuse to give a government employee the ability to control their children choose to home school

 

[frigidweirdo]

Because it's impossible not to. That's life. The question is, is the person, or people, who do this, doing the right thing or not doing the right thing?

We all live in society. Society sets rules. It sets rules by law and it sets rules by morals and it sets rules by other means. You don't have to like it and you don't have to accept it, but it's there. And I know it's there because I've lived in various countries on three continents and seen the different rules and different ways of life.

Anarchy is the absence of rules. But with anarchy comes people trying to grab power. You can't have the power vacuum that you seem to want to set up. Someone will always come to the fore and tell others what to do.

Again, you don't have to accept this is the truth, but it is none the less.

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

so we settle for your government social engineering and manipulation via taxes?

Imagine you're a teacher in a school, and you have a naughty kid. What do you do? Do you have expectations about their level of behavior and then force them to accept such levels of behavior, using punishment when they don't reach those levels of behavior, or do you let them do what they want?

Why do you teach kids how to behave "properly"? We do so because we have expectations about how children should behave, and we also have expectations about how adults should behave too. That's why there are laws. They set out those expectations and then they punish those who go beyond those expectations.

Personally I know what sort of society I want to live in. I've spent time in South Africa, and the place is scary. I wouldn't want to live in a place with 8 times more murder and crime than the US. Even for me the US is more dangerous than it should be. Yes, there are differences between areas, but that doesn't mean it's the sort of society I want to live in.

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

Okay, it's never going to be 100%. but there are better and worse places.

Why is Louisiana the murder and prison population capital of the US? Almost certainly because the ideas that you're espousing are more prevalent in places like Louisiana than in places like the North East.

The perfect society isn't going to exist. You have to start basing things in reality, and from there try and make things better. You can call it social engineering, I'm not totally sure you understand what, exactly, my thoughts on this are, a lot of my thoughts are simply about education. I'm not the sort of person who wants to force people to be something. I'm the sort who wants to educated them so they're more likely to be like this.

why don't we talk about adults instead of kids because your desire to control doesn't stop at children

and regardless of the school kid analogy the teachers have the permission of the parents to do what they do those parents who refuse to give a government employee the ability to control their children choose to home school

Why don't you stop being pedantic?

This doesn't get us very far when all you're doing is throwing things at me.

Kids HAVE to be educated and many parents can't afford, or don't know, how to home school. So the permission is given in so much as a murder gives the govt permission to lock him up.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

And what country has those things?

I went to Sweden a few years back, and every time I got close to a crossing on the road, cars were stopping. They could easily have made it through before I even got there, but they stopped for me.

I went to Japan too, I illegally crossed the road because I wanted to go to the shop on the other side and there was no crossing. Some guy on a pushbike stopped because I was crossing the road, even though, again, he could have carried on without even disturbing me.

Here is what I don't get: people always come here telling us how much better other places are to live, yet never leave the USA. That being said, what makes you live here if things are better in other places?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

And what country has those things?

I went to Sweden a few years back, and every time I got close to a crossing on the road, cars were stopping. They could easily have made it through before I even got there, but they stopped for me.

I went to Japan too, I illegally crossed the road because I wanted to go to the shop on the other side and there was no crossing. Some guy on a pushbike stopped because I was crossing the road, even though, again, he could have carried on without even disturbing me.

Here is what I don't get: people always come here telling us how much better other places are to live, yet never leave the USA. That being said, what makes you live here if things are better in other places?

I live where I live because of my work. The job I do where I am is much better hours and much better pay than if I did my job elsewhere. There are plenty of things I'd prefer to be different where I am, but I can either choose to be poor, and I mean poor, or I can earn a good wage and suck up the shit.

The problem with your argument, and I've heard such an argument many times, is that you're basically saying that if you don't like a place, then fuck off. Don't try and change it, don't try and make it a better place, just fuck off.

What kind of a shitty attitude is that?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

And what country has those things?

I went to Sweden a few years back, and every time I got close to a crossing on the road, cars were stopping. They could easily have made it through before I even got there, but they stopped for me.

I went to Japan too, I illegally crossed the road because I wanted to go to the shop on the other side and there was no crossing. Some guy on a pushbike stopped because I was crossing the road, even though, again, he could have carried on without even disturbing me.

Here is what I don't get: people always come here telling us how much better other places are to live, yet never leave the USA. That being said, what makes you live here if things are better in other places?

I live where I live because of my work. The job I do where I am is much better hours and much better pay than if I did my job elsewhere. There are plenty of things I'd prefer to be different where I am, but I can either choose to be poor, and I mean poor, or I can earn a good wage and suck up the shit.

The problem with your argument, and I've heard such an argument many times, is that you're basically saying that if you don't like a place, then fuck off. Don't try and change it, don't try and make it a better place, just fuck off.

What kind of a shitty attitude is that?

It's not a shitty attitude at all. if I was disgusted with the way things were here, I would move to a more conservative/ Republican country than this one. The problem is, there aren't any out there. As you pointed out already, there are plenty of Socialist liberal countries to move to if this one does not appeal to you.

Once you ruin things here with Socialist ideas, there won't be anywhere else to move to. It will be just like all these other countries you speak of but won't dream of moving to. You can't make the kind of money in other countries that you can here? Well why do you suppose that is?

 

[frigidweirdo]

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

And what country has those things?

I went to Sweden a few years back, and every time I got close to a crossing on the road, cars were stopping. They could easily have made it through before I even got there, but they stopped for me.

I went to Japan too, I illegally crossed the road because I wanted to go to the shop on the other side and there was no crossing. Some guy on a pushbike stopped because I was crossing the road, even though, again, he could have carried on without even disturbing me.

Here is what I don't get: people always come here telling us how much better other places are to live, yet never leave the USA. That being said, what makes you live here if things are better in other places?

I live where I live because of my work. The job I do where I am is much better hours and much better pay than if I did my job elsewhere. There are plenty of things I'd prefer to be different where I am, but I can either choose to be poor, and I mean poor, or I can earn a good wage and suck up the shit.

The problem with your argument, and I've heard such an argument many times, is that you're basically saying that if you don't like a place, then fuck off. Don't try and change it, don't try and make it a better place, just fuck off.

What kind of a shitty attitude is that?

It's not a shitty attitude at all. if I was disgusted with the way things were here, I would move to a more conservative/ Republican country than this one. The problem is, there aren't any out there. As you pointed out already, there are plenty of Socialist liberal countries to move to if this one does not appeal to you.

Once you ruin things here with Socialist ideas, there won't be anywhere else to move to. It will be just like all these other countries you speak of but won't dream of moving to. You can't make the kind of money in other countries that you can here? Well why do you suppose that is?

There are plenty of more conservative countries out there. Many of them are Muslim. Russia isn't.

I'm not sure why you're talking about "Socialist ideas", I'm not a socialist.

Also, don't start making assumptions about where I live. I didn't tell you where I live and I won't be telling you where I live.

 

[Skull Pilot]

the rule aren't all that different in fact the few rules that are important never change and those important rules prohibit one person from forcing his will on another

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

so we settle for your government social engineering and manipulation via taxes?

Imagine you're a teacher in a school, and you have a naughty kid. What do you do? Do you have expectations about their level of behavior and then force them to accept such levels of behavior, using punishment when they don't reach those levels of behavior, or do you let them do what they want?

Why do you teach kids how to behave "properly"? We do so because we have expectations about how children should behave, and we also have expectations about how adults should behave too. That's why there are laws. They set out those expectations and then they punish those who go beyond those expectations.

Personally I know what sort of society I want to live in. I've spent time in South Africa, and the place is scary. I wouldn't want to live in a place with 8 times more murder and crime than the US. Even for me the US is more dangerous than it should be. Yes, there are differences between areas, but that doesn't mean it's the sort of society I want to live in.

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

Okay, it's never going to be 100%. but there are better and worse places.

Why is Louisiana the murder and prison population capital of the US? Almost certainly because the ideas that you're espousing are more prevalent in places like Louisiana than in places like the North East.

The perfect society isn't going to exist. You have to start basing things in reality, and from there try and make things better. You can call it social engineering, I'm not totally sure you understand what, exactly, my thoughts on this are, a lot of my thoughts are simply about education. I'm not the sort of person who wants to force people to be something. I'm the sort who wants to educated them so they're more likely to be like this.

why don't we talk about adults instead of kids because your desire to control doesn't stop at children

and regardless of the school kid analogy the teachers have the permission of the parents to do what they do those parents who refuse to give a government employee the ability to control their children choose to home school

Why don't you stop being pedantic?

This doesn't get us very far when all you're doing is throwing things at me.

Kids HAVE to be educated and many parents can't afford, or don't know, how to home school. So the permission is given in so much as a murder gives the govt permission to lock him up.

parents give permission for government functionaries to teach their kids by CHOICE

especially in this day and age where there are countless free resources for people who would home school

no murderer chooses to be locked up or given the needle

 

[Crixus]

I found a local gun story that I wanted to share because the accused is a minor. Kids with guns are not all that unusual (especially here in Cleveland) but what I found most telling is the response of the mother.

In short, this kid was arrested for having BB gun in a public park (very similar to the Tamir Rice situation) a year earlier. The judge went easy on the kid, but now the 16 year old was busted having a real loaded gun. Here are some quotes from the mother:

"He has to learn the right way. I can't stop him." When the I TEAM asked where he got the gun this time, his mother said, "I don't know. Don't know. He was using it for protection. He was walking down the street and people would shoot at him. Nowadays, that's what you need for protection. I don't consider it a good thing."

That mom says she did talk to her son before the Parma BB gun incident and after it. Didn’t matter. She said, “Kids these days need to learn their own lessons. He's learning his lessons."

Teen caught with BB gun at Parma park now busted with gun; mom says she can’t stop him

With the path this kid is on, it's more than likely he'll be dead or in prison for murder the next decade. Then the left will blame the guns.

Another thing that struck me: she said "I don't know, and I can't stop him." Not "We can't stop him" as if there was a father figure around. This woman practically justified her son illegally carrying a likely stolen gun underage. When he gets older and arrested for shooting somebody, I'm sure the mother will once again respond to a news interview by saying "My baby didn't do nutting wrong, he's a good boy." If he gets gunned down in the street, well........then I guess he "learned his own lessons."

There is more to it than a parenting problem. There's a society problem.

In what world do kids think they need weapons to protect themselves? Well, in a society that is failing to protect people, to instill morals into kids and all of that.

The right love to say how it's the parents' fault. The problem is that the right will also push the very same parents to work 80 hours a week so the rich can get richer. They also don't place any responsibility on schools to help deal with all the issues out there. So, the right essentially like to create the environment for this kind of thing, and then bitch and moan that the parents aren't doing anything about it.

Really? You mean it was the right that promoted single-parent families? It was the right that told women to give up their husband for a job? The right promoted that???

Well if it's a society problem and the mother was correct in saying he needed the gun for protection, why not give every 16 year old in the ghetto a gun for protection? After all, it's not a parenting issue now is it?

Maybe.......just maybe if this kid had a father around, he might not be in trouble today. Maybe.....just maybe, with a husband and father, they would be able to afford a nicer area to live with two incomes.

The world changed. The world went from being a subsistence farming world of near slaves, or surfs or whatever you want to call them. People for thousands of years worked the land, lived under a powerful landlord who was, for the slaves/surfs/underlings, above the law. He was only below the law when it came to those who were higher up.

But the world changed. Along came industry. Along came a migration away from the farms. Suddenly things were changing in a manner that went away from what the Church new and how to deal with. However under the subsistence farming world, people worked a lot, had as many kids as they could. They didn't have time to go fucking around too much, and their world was so small that everyone would know about it. The cities changed this, they changed a lot.

What you're talking about seems to be the right wishing to keep everything as it was. Perhaps. And they did desire married people. However they also desired people working massive amounts of hours. The two don't fit together.

Were liberals pushing for change? Sure they were. The American Revolution was a push for change, the Constitution was change. Did this change have an impact on family life? Sure it did. But are you suggesting that we should have remained subsistence farmers, living miserable lives, just so that we'd stay married?

Yeah, we could give every 16 year old a gun for protection, and then perhaps we could give them 10 ounces of crack cocaine so they don't have to go stealing in order to get their fix. Yeah, that'll work, then we can lock them up for possessing the thing we just gave them too, and then they'll be safe in prison, right? Because prisons are safe places....

Come off it.....

 

[Crixus]

I found a local gun story that I wanted to share because the accused is a minor. Kids with guns are not all that unusual (especially here in Cleveland) but what I found most telling is the response of the mother.

In short, this kid was arrested for having BB gun in a public park (very similar to the Tamir Rice situation) a year earlier. The judge went easy on the kid, but now the 16 year old was busted having a real loaded gun. Here are some quotes from the mother:

"He has to learn the right way. I can't stop him." When the I TEAM asked where he got the gun this time, his mother said, "I don't know. Don't know. He was using it for protection. He was walking down the street and people would shoot at him. Nowadays, that's what you need for protection. I don't consider it a good thing."

That mom says she did talk to her son before the Parma BB gun incident and after it. Didn’t matter. She said, “Kids these days need to learn their own lessons. He's learning his lessons."

Teen caught with BB gun at Parma park now busted with gun; mom says she can’t stop him

With the path this kid is on, it's more than likely he'll be dead or in prison for murder the next decade. Then the left will blame the guns.

Another thing that struck me: she said "I don't know, and I can't stop him." Not "We can't stop him" as if there was a father figure around. This woman practically justified her son illegally carrying a likely stolen gun underage. When he gets older and arrested for shooting somebody, I'm sure the mother will once again respond to a news interview by saying "My baby didn't do nutting wrong, he's a good boy." If he gets gunned down in the street, well........then I guess he "learned his own lessons."

There is more to it than a parenting problem. There's a society problem.

In what world do kids think they need weapons to protect themselves? Well, in a society that is failing to protect people, to instill morals into kids and all of that.

The right love to say how it's the parents' fault. The problem is that the right will also push the very same parents to work 80 hours a week so the rich can get richer. They also don't place any responsibility on schools to help deal with all the issues out there. So, the right essentially like to create the environment for this kind of thing, and then bitch and moan that the parents aren't doing anything about it.

Really? You mean it was the right that promoted single-parent families? It was the right that told women to give up their husband for a job? The right promoted that???

Well if it's a society problem and the mother was correct in saying he needed the gun for protection, why not give every 16 year old in the ghetto a gun for protection? After all, it's not a parenting issue now is it?

Maybe.......just maybe if this kid had a father around, he might not be in trouble today. Maybe.....just maybe, with a husband and father, they would be able to afford a nicer area to live with two incomes.

The world changed. The world went from being a subsistence farming world of near slaves, or surfs or whatever you want to call them. People for thousands of years worked the land, lived under a powerful landlord who was, for the slaves/surfs/underlings, above the law. He was only below the law when it came to those who were higher up.

But the world changed. Along came industry. Along came a migration away from the farms. Suddenly things were changing in a manner that went away from what the Church new and how to deal with. However under the subsistence farming world, people worked a lot, had as many kids as they could. They didn't have time to go fucking around too much, and their world was so small that everyone would know about it. The cities changed this, they changed a lot.

What you're talking about seems to be the right wishing to keep everything as it was. Perhaps. And they did desire married people. However they also desired people working massive amounts of hours. The two don't fit together.

Were liberals pushing for change? Sure they were. The American Revolution was a push for change, the Constitution was change. Did this change have an impact on family life? Sure it did. But are you suggesting that we should have remained subsistence farmers, living miserable lives, just so that we'd stay married?

Yeah, we could give every 16 year old a gun for protection, and then perhaps we could give them 10 ounces of crack cocaine so they don't have to go stealing in order to get their fix. Yeah, that'll work, then we can lock them up for possessing the thing we just gave them too, and then they'll be safe in prison, right? Because prisons are safe places....

Come off it.....

Well if little hood rat's ma took more of an interest in his life other then when she needed weed maybe he would have done things different? Sorry moonbat, mommy hood rat don't get to blame her spawns thuggery on guns. That young man is HER fault. So yeah, there is a culture thing going on, but it's a lazy slob culture not a gun culture.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, I got that. But then what you're not getting is that this utopia you're talking about just isn't achievable.

so we settle for your government social engineering and manipulation via taxes?

Imagine you're a teacher in a school, and you have a naughty kid. What do you do? Do you have expectations about their level of behavior and then force them to accept such levels of behavior, using punishment when they don't reach those levels of behavior, or do you let them do what they want?

Why do you teach kids how to behave "properly"? We do so because we have expectations about how children should behave, and we also have expectations about how adults should behave too. That's why there are laws. They set out those expectations and then they punish those who go beyond those expectations.

Personally I know what sort of society I want to live in. I've spent time in South Africa, and the place is scary. I wouldn't want to live in a place with 8 times more murder and crime than the US. Even for me the US is more dangerous than it should be. Yes, there are differences between areas, but that doesn't mean it's the sort of society I want to live in.

I want a society where people are aware of those around them. A society where people have the skills to do a job that is necessary, have the skills to be good to other people, have the skills to be decent human beings.

Okay, it's never going to be 100%. but there are better and worse places.

Why is Louisiana the murder and prison population capital of the US? Almost certainly because the ideas that you're espousing are more prevalent in places like Louisiana than in places like the North East.

The perfect society isn't going to exist. You have to start basing things in reality, and from there try and make things better. You can call it social engineering, I'm not totally sure you understand what, exactly, my thoughts on this are, a lot of my thoughts are simply about education. I'm not the sort of person who wants to force people to be something. I'm the sort who wants to educated them so they're more likely to be like this.

why don't we talk about adults instead of kids because your desire to control doesn't stop at children

and regardless of the school kid analogy the teachers have the permission of the parents to do what they do those parents who refuse to give a government employee the ability to control their children choose to home school

Why don't you stop being pedantic?

This doesn't get us very far when all you're doing is throwing things at me.

Kids HAVE to be educated and many parents can't afford, or don't know, how to home school. So the permission is given in so much as a murder gives the govt permission to lock him up.

parents give permission for government functionaries to teach their kids by CHOICE

especially in this day and age where there are countless free resources for people who would home school

no murderer chooses to be locked up or given the needle

Then again, you can choose to leave the country, so on your logic, everything you do, if you stay, is about choice. Right? So, what's the problem with teaching kids how to be decent adults when they grow up if it's all choice?

 

[Dragonlady]

When you do call for that change, expect to hear a lot of echo's because you'll be one of the few in that room.

Yes, I've noticed.

It's funny, this is how it kind of goes.

"We have problems, oh we have lots of problems"

"Here's the solution to your problem"

"Oh, no, no, no, I can't accept that"

Basically too many people won't accept solutions to their problems. It's bizarre. You can have all the debates on here you like about the problems, and the only two conclusions are A) there are solutions that could solve these problems and B) the people don't want to solve these problems, they're just bitchin' because it makes them feel good about themselves.

I wonder whether this is a natural thing. Every empire has fallen, and every empire will fall. And it appears that empires grow to a certain strength and the people then suddenly change, they're born believing that somehow they're destined to greatness, and this is what makes them fall from greatness.

China's up next, and the Chinese are selfish, and you'd better be prepared to be fucked so hard up the ass by the Chinese it'll make you cry.

No, people like solutions, it's just that everybody has a different solution and believe that only theirs can work.

That's what makes the world turn. That's why we have elections. Politicians present their solutions to problems, and you either vote for those solutions or you vote for another persons solutions.

We have an immigration problem. They are draining our social programs, committing crimes, taking our jobs, and lowering our pay rate for American workers.

The Democrat solution is amnesty and open borders. Trump's solution is strict enforcement on illegals and building a wall. The people chose Trump's solution over Hillary's, because Hillary's can't work. It would only net the Democrat party more votes in the future.

Sure they do. The problem is many people on forums like this, their solution is so simple it's not a solution.

Take "lock 'em up" as a solution to dealing with crime. It's simple, and it doesn't seem to work.
Take "make drugs illegal" as a solution to dealing with drugs. It's simple, and it doesn't seem to work.

There are solutions and there are solutions that work because they get to the heart of the problem.

Yes, and there are solutions to the immigration problem and then there are solutions that work, and it's a mentality issue. You have intelligent people not thinking much about how things should be. They just want to let people in all the time as if this works, and they cry racist if you try and stop people getting in.

The people didn't choose Trump's solutions over Hillary's. I doubt most people voted for issues at all. They voted for personality, they voted for hope too. The same with Obama, the same with Bush, the same with Clinton. Bush snr might have been the last president to get elected because people thought he was actually the right guy for the job, and he didn't last very long... that's the mentality of the voters. The voters are the biggest problem the US faces.

You can't say that Trump was voted in just because of his personality. Most people don't like his personality. People voted for Trump because he was the only candidate that took a tough stance on our immigration problem.

The Republicans have gained so much power the last six years in state offices, county offices, federal seats, and it's not because Republicans have such good personalities. It's because Democrats have made it known they are trying tirelessly to make whites a minority in this country as soon as possible. And now more activist judges are aiding them. This is liberalism and Americans are rejecting it.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

No, I disagree. Trump used the "I'm one of you" the same as Dubya used. He managed to create a semi-cult by using the same nationalistic, populist imagery in people's minds. The same has been done in plenty of other countries, all he needed to do was to look see how it was done and then carry it out. But there are many on the right who seem to like politicians who are at their level. But there are plenty of other things he did too, like hope. It wasn't just personality that attracted people. But then again the voting was also quite negative.

Immigration is just one issue, and it's how you present the issue too. Had Trump come out with sensible plans for dealing with immigration, no one would have given a damn. It was that he went on about a wall, he found something like a relic in religion, something people would should about, something simple, something visual, something simple people think would work.

There isn't a simple answer to why Trump managed to get into office, but at the heart of it he presented people with populism and a personality of someone who is "tough" and people go crazy for "tough" people, even though they end up causing more harm than solutions to problems.

Populism works because it offers simple solutions to complex problems. And someone to blame for your troubles.

The problem of illegal immigration is very complex and few can grasp the idea that removing 11 million people from the economy will have a devastating effect on the economy. But they can grasp "Build that wall" as a solution to the problem. And they can blame Mexicans for stealing their jobs.

Conservatives want a "Daddy" - a strong man who will take care of them and make their lives better. Someone who speaks to their fears and offers simple solutions. Like Reagan.

Trump talks tough but he's essentially a liar, a con man and a bully who backs down the moment he gets resistance to his bullying (see NAFTA withdrawal).

 

[2aguy]

Yes, I've noticed.

It's funny, this is how it kind of goes.

"We have problems, oh we have lots of problems"

"Here's the solution to your problem"

"Oh, no, no, no, I can't accept that"

Basically too many people won't accept solutions to their problems. It's bizarre. You can have all the debates on here you like about the problems, and the only two conclusions are A) there are solutions that could solve these problems and B) the people don't want to solve these problems, they're just bitchin' because it makes them feel good about themselves.

I wonder whether this is a natural thing. Every empire has fallen, and every empire will fall. And it appears that empires grow to a certain strength and the people then suddenly change, they're born believing that somehow they're destined to greatness, and this is what makes them fall from greatness.

China's up next, and the Chinese are selfish, and you'd better be prepared to be fucked so hard up the ass by the Chinese it'll make you cry.

No, people like solutions, it's just that everybody has a different solution and believe that only theirs can work.

That's what makes the world turn. That's why we have elections. Politicians present their solutions to problems, and you either vote for those solutions or you vote for another persons solutions.

We have an immigration problem. They are draining our social programs, committing crimes, taking our jobs, and lowering our pay rate for American workers.

The Democrat solution is amnesty and open borders. Trump's solution is strict enforcement on illegals and building a wall. The people chose Trump's solution over Hillary's, because Hillary's can't work. It would only net the Democrat party more votes in the future.

Sure they do. The problem is many people on forums like this, their solution is so simple it's not a solution.

Take "lock 'em up" as a solution to dealing with crime. It's simple, and it doesn't seem to work.
Take "make drugs illegal" as a solution to dealing with drugs. It's simple, and it doesn't seem to work.

There are solutions and there are solutions that work because they get to the heart of the problem.

Yes, and there are solutions to the immigration problem and then there are solutions that work, and it's a mentality issue. You have intelligent people not thinking much about how things should be. They just want to let people in all the time as if this works, and they cry racist if you try and stop people getting in.

The people didn't choose Trump's solutions over Hillary's. I doubt most people voted for issues at all. They voted for personality, they voted for hope too. The same with Obama, the same with Bush, the same with Clinton. Bush snr might have been the last president to get elected because people thought he was actually the right guy for the job, and he didn't last very long... that's the mentality of the voters. The voters are the biggest problem the US faces.

You can't say that Trump was voted in just because of his personality. Most people don't like his personality. People voted for Trump because he was the only candidate that took a tough stance on our immigration problem.

The Republicans have gained so much power the last six years in state offices, county offices, federal seats, and it's not because Republicans have such good personalities. It's because Democrats have made it known they are trying tirelessly to make whites a minority in this country as soon as possible. And now more activist judges are aiding them. This is liberalism and Americans are rejecting it.


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

No, I disagree. Trump used the "I'm one of you" the same as Dubya used. He managed to create a semi-cult by using the same nationalistic, populist imagery in people's minds. The same has been done in plenty of other countries, all he needed to do was to look see how it was done and then carry it out. But there are many on the right who seem to like politicians who are at their level. But there are plenty of other things he did too, like hope. It wasn't just personality that attracted people. But then again the voting was also quite negative.

Immigration is just one issue, and it's how you present the issue too. Had Trump come out with sensible plans for dealing with immigration, no one would have given a damn. It was that he went on about a wall, he found something like a relic in religion, something people would should about, something simple, something visual, something simple people think would work.

There isn't a simple answer to why Trump managed to get into office, but at the heart of it he presented people with populism and a personality of someone who is "tough" and people go crazy for "tough" people, even though they end up causing more harm than solutions to problems.

Populism works because it offers simple solutions to complex problems. And someone to blame for your troubles.

The problem of illegal immigration is very complex and few can grasp the idea that removing 11 million people from the economy will have a devastating effect on the economy. But they can grasp "Build that wall" as a solution to the problem. And they can blame Mexicans for stealing their jobs.

Conservatives want a "Daddy" - a strong man who will take care of them and make their lives better. Someone who speaks to their fears and offers simple solutions. Like Reagan.

Trump talks tough but he's essentially a liar, a con man and a bully who backs down the moment he gets resistance to his bullying (see NAFTA withdrawal).

No.....conservatives want someone to limit the size of the central government, to limit it to it's actual Constitutional responsibilities....and keeping people from breaking the law is it's primary duties.......you morons want it in every aspect of our lives....not us......

The con man was obama......did you like keeping your healthcare plan and your doctor?

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

The problem of illegal immigration is very complex and few can grasp the idea that removing 11 million people from the economy will have a devastating effect on the economy. But they can grasp "Build that wall" as a solution to the problem. And they can blame Mexicans for stealing their jobs.

Conservatives want a "Daddy" - a strong man who will take care of them and make their lives better. Someone who speaks to their fears and offers simple solutions. Like Reagan.

That's liberals--not conservatives.

The federal government is supposed to do what the Constitution charges them to do. The federal government does things that's impossible for individuals to do like build a wall hundreds of miles long.

Liberals on the other hand need that daddy you speak of: they want government to take money from the rich to give to them, government to feed them, government to house them, government to give them medical care, government to educate them and even give them rides to and from school; all things individuals can do for themselves, but just don't want to.

Drugs and illegals flow into the country through that border, and US cash flows out through that border. They take our jobs and lower our pay scale which is perfect for the Democrats since they want to create as many government dependents as they can.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

And what country has those things?

I went to Sweden a few years back, and every time I got close to a crossing on the road, cars were stopping. They could easily have made it through before I even got there, but they stopped for me.

I went to Japan too, I illegally crossed the road because I wanted to go to the shop on the other side and there was no crossing. Some guy on a pushbike stopped because I was crossing the road, even though, again, he could have carried on without even disturbing me.

Here is what I don't get: people always come here telling us how much better other places are to live, yet never leave the USA. That being said, what makes you live here if things are better in other places?

I live where I live because of my work. The job I do where I am is much better hours and much better pay than if I did my job elsewhere. There are plenty of things I'd prefer to be different where I am, but I can either choose to be poor, and I mean poor, or I can earn a good wage and suck up the shit.

The problem with your argument, and I've heard such an argument many times, is that you're basically saying that if you don't like a place, then fuck off. Don't try and change it, don't try and make it a better place, just fuck off.

What kind of a shitty attitude is that?

It's not a shitty attitude at all. if I was disgusted with the way things were here, I would move to a more conservative/ Republican country than this one. The problem is, there aren't any out there. As you pointed out already, there are plenty of Socialist liberal countries to move to if this one does not appeal to you.

Once you ruin things here with Socialist ideas, there won't be anywhere else to move to. It will be just like all these other countries you speak of but won't dream of moving to. You can't make the kind of money in other countries that you can here? Well why do you suppose that is?

There are plenty of more conservative countries out there. Many of them are Muslim. Russia isn't.

I'm not sure why you're talking about "Socialist ideas", I'm not a socialist.

Also, don't start making assumptions about where I live. I didn't tell you where I live and I won't be telling you where I live.

Good choice on your part. So do tell, which Muslim countries are for freedom and capitalism?