Guns, our culture, and politics

[Mac1958]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

 

[gipper]

Another point that is almost never discussed, are the pharmaceutical drugs many of these mass murderers are taking. It seems Big Pharm always gets a pass.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

While I'd say watching violent entertainment or playing violent games can't be good for you, it's also akin to religion being the only thing keeping the poor from murdering the rich as Napolean said. Think if you can satisfy your blood lust virtually or passively as with watching others doing it real or not, it satisfies that urge without making it real.

As with the effect on pornography reducing sex crimes when available, and sex crimes going up when it's banned, I think violent content has a similar effect. If we can get those urges out virtually it reduces the likelyhood we'll do it for real.

In times past, absent these alternative outlets people had revolutions and conflicts even more than we do now. Human animal was arguably even more violent long before fictionalized violence came into existence.

 

[Mac1958]

Another point that is almost never discussed, are the pharmaceutical drugs many of these mass murderers are taking. It seems Big Pharm always gets a pass.

Well, that would go back to our health system. Yeah, it's bad enough that we automatically medicate people, worse when we're not keeping track effectively.
.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

Think if we did a top 10 list of most murderous people ever, various leaders would be among the top and no mass murderer/shooter type would even be in the top 1000.

 

[Mac1958]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

Think if we did a top 10 list of most murderous people ever, various leaders would be among the top and no mass murderer/shooter type would even be in the top 1000.

Sure. But what has been happening over the last few years has to be addressed. The problem is so far all we're getting is finger-pointing and zero self-examination.
.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

Think if we did a top 10 list of most murderous people ever, various leaders would be among the top and no mass murderer/shooter type would even be in the top 1000.

Sure. But what has been happening over the last few years has to be addressed. The problem is so far all we're getting is finger-pointing and zero self-examination.
.

Compared to the past, what's happening now is a preferred alternative.

In times past crazy people prone to violence took over the entire world as with Alexander the Great. Now they just take out single classrooms.

 

[Mac1958]

Compared to the past, what's happening now is a preferred alternative. In times past crazy people prone to violence took over the entire world as with Alexander the Great. Now they just take out single classrooms.

Oh, I think we can do a lot better.

Are we really satisfied with the current state of our culture, the list I made in the OP?

Really?
.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Compared to the past, what's happening now is a preferred alternative. In times past crazy people prone to violence took over the entire world as with Alexander the Great. Now they just take out single classrooms.

Oh, I think we can do a lot better.

Are we really satisfied with the current state of our culture, the list I made in the OP?

Really?
.

Over time, think this is us doing better. Just need to reign in the national-level war slaughtering now. On a personal level though things have gotten considerably better.

Important to remember that the violence problems we should be worried about aren't the mass/serial murderers but the large scale religiously-motivated and political stuff. Soviet Union had a serial killer way back with other 50 victims. England had Jack the Ripper. On n on. Compared to what 'bad' can be, having someone spaz out with a gun whose use is overt and obvious, I'd rather face that than someone sneaking around murdering covertly.

 

[Freewill]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

Make a connection between sitting "near catatonic" and the killing.

Supposedly the killer was asking one question before executing their victims, are you a Christian.

Now tell me, can you see a connection with the liberals left apparent hate for anything Christian and their defense of anything Muslim? How many times do you hear that a person should be "taken out" because of their view on homosexuality or abortion or a host of other topics?

A sane person can make the rational distinction between a human being and a bunch of pixels on a TV screen. Which doesn't mean that the sick or insane person won't get basic training from the same set of pixels.

But what makes a person do these acts? You can say it is the gun culture, which may indeed be a factor in the ease of how these people are killed but i think that is a symptom not a cause.

There is something rotten in Denmark and until that is changed we will see more of these types of killings. The hard part is how do we change the culture. Taking guns away certainly if feasible would stop GUN violence but it is like putting a lion in a cage and saying they are now domesticated.

I think that the culture that says, if you disagree with me you are nothing more then a hater and should die, has much more to do with what happens in society then just the fact that folks own guns.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

The biggest problem is selfishness.

Education, people don't want to pay for other people's education. But then they get an inferior society in which to live in.

Inner city ghettos exist because of poor education causing cycles of people who are under-educated and lacking in skills required to get out, all hope has been lost, and therefore crime takes over easily. A culture has exploded which works on street cred rather than anything else.

When it comes to talking about all that comes out is that people should be able to make their own decisions, they're free to do so. But they aren't going to make good decisions when they've lost all hope and have had a poor education to boot.

I feel that the richer people actually like having these poor people there in ghettos because it means cheap labor and they think it scares people into keeping straight an narrow.

On issues of education of food, the right will go nuts if, say, for example, Michelle Obama suggests that schools shouldn't serve more than one ketchup sachet per meal per child. In my view, based on my education, I'd say a child in school shouldn't have ketchup at all. Then you get the argument that the govt shouldn't be providing food anyway, which is just a weird one. If parents choose to buy meals for their kids at school it's no different than buy food from a restaurant.

But then this comes to the main problem. Crap arguments. Yes, utterly useless arguments that only hold ground when insults, attacks and other devices are used to change them. So these richer people still don't have a good enough education to see what is in the best interests of the country and the people, and even themselves.

They dream of this world where workers work hard, real hard, but then have to go home and do everything for their family. One parent families in ghettos where the bread winner is working all hours of the day, and is then supposed to educate their children and feed their children by cooking for hours a day, and helping with homework and all this. So when do they sleep? At work? To get fired and then go on food stamps etc?

Basically, if you missed reading most of this, the point is the US needs to decide what sort of country it wants, and go for it. Right now it's just a mess of conflicting arguments all designed to keep rich idiots happy and poor idiots in their place.

 

[robertacollier]

People continue to die and little is changing.
.

A lot is changing. Homicide is considerably down from 20 years ago. Violent crime has greatly dropped. Contemporary times are relatively safe compared the 17th-20th centuries. You probably live in the safest time in human history.

 

[Freewill]

Looking at the latest gun-related tragedy from a non-ideological perspective, both sides of the gun issue have reasonable points to make, and neither appears to be addressing what may be the real problem.

The pro-gun side makes a very reasonable point, that law-abiding gun owners are not the same people who perpetrate these horrible crimes. As long as guns are available, and they always will be to some extent, a crazy person will be able to get their hands on one.

The pro-gun control side also make a reasonable point, that enforcing certain gun limits in a civilized society is not unconstitutional, because that society has to maintain some levels of control to avoid anarchy. People continue to die and little is changing.

So what are we supposed to do? And why does America have this problem - damaged people getting their hands on guns with the intent of going out in a murderous blaze of glory?

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

And then we wonder why this country continues to churn out insane murderers far more frequently than any other country.

Thoughts? What role, if any, is our culture contributing to this madness, and what can be done about it?
.

The biggest problem is selfishness.

Education, people don't want to pay for other people's education. But then they get an inferior society in which to live in.

Inner city ghettos exist because of poor education causing cycles of people who are under-educated and lacking in skills required to get out, all hope has been lost, and therefore crime takes over easily. A culture has exploded which works on street cred rather than anything else.

When it comes to talking about all that comes out is that people should be able to make their own decisions, they're free to do so. But they aren't going to make good decisions when they've lost all hope and have had a poor education to boot.

I feel that the richer people actually like having these poor people there in ghettos because it means cheap labor and they think it scares people into keeping straight an narrow.

On issues of education of food, the right will go nuts if, say, for example, Michelle Obama suggests that schools shouldn't serve more than one ketchup sachet per meal per child. In my view, based on my education, I'd say a child in school shouldn't have ketchup at all. Then you get the argument that the govt shouldn't be providing food anyway, which is just a weird one. If parents choose to buy meals for their kids at school it's no different than buy food from a restaurant.

But then this comes to the main problem. Crap arguments. Yes, utterly useless arguments that only hold ground when insults, attacks and other devices are used to change them. So these richer people still don't have a good enough education to see what is in the best interests of the country and the people, and even themselves.

They dream of this world where workers work hard, real hard, but then have to go home and do everything for their family. One parent families in ghettos where the bread winner is working all hours of the day, and is then supposed to educate their children and feed their children by cooking for hours a day, and helping with homework and all this. So when do they sleep? At work? To get fired and then go on food stamps etc?

Basically, if you missed reading most of this, the point is the US needs to decide what sort of country it wants, and go for it. Right now it's just a mess of conflicting arguments all designed to keep rich idiots happy and poor idiots in their place.

People don't like paying for stuff that they paid for themselves. In other words, my daughter sat in college with me paying the full load. Next to her with the same classes was a person not paying a dime. You can say what you want but that is human nature. Work your ass off to build a nest egg to have it taken by someone else just doesn't seem right.

As for colleges if it were not for the generousity of the government the cost of an education wouldn't be skyrocketing. And the cost is skyrocketing not because the education is getting better but because the administration of the colleges are raping the tax payers and those who pay their own way. So yeah there is selfishness, selfishness in liberals who run PP getting million dollar pay checks. Or a college administrator, more likely being a liberal, getting HUGE increases in pay.

Societies spending on inner city education grows every year. There are those who were able to go through the inner city education and rise above it. A person makes a choice(S), sink or swim. In my opinion we are making it easy for the person just to float along not really joining into society or striving for success.

Add that to the FACT that the same jobs that might bring the poor, white or black, out of the ghettos are being subsidized and given to illegal immigrants or those we are flooding our country with from the ME. When does it stop????

Black people want to work as much as white people. But unfortunately our immigration policy is helping keep those same poor people in poverty.

 

[JoeB131]

I submit the fundamental problem here is the same problem that is plaguing us in other areas as well: Our culture.

Look at our popular culture: Young people sitting near catatonic in front of the TV screens playing violent video games for hours and days on end; movies that show extreme violence and death with conscience-numbing ease, made even worse by incredible special effects; music that glorifies hatred and violence; a political environment polluted by anger and personal attacks; a popular culture that creates "celebrities" with no discernible talents or abilities; the isolating narcissism of the "selfie generation"; on and on. And perhaps worst of all is the way every one of these psychopaths knows they will finally become famous when they perpetrate their crime.

and yet Japanese, German and British kids are playing the same video games, and they aren't having mass shooting incidents.

THey are taking the same selfies, and they aren't having mass shooting incidents.

They are watching the same movies... well, you get the idea.

The only thing they don't have are - easy access to guns.....

 

[JoeB131]

Oh, I think we can do a lot better.

Are we really satisfied with the current state of our culture, the list I made in the OP?

Guy, every period feels that their "culture' is awful. Heck, I'm old enough to remember my parents thought the world was going to Hell in a Handbasket in the 1970's.

 

[Freewill]

Although it would seem we are safer it also seems we should strive to be an even better people.

James Alan Fox: Umpqua shooting - a tragedy, not a trend

Not withstanding the sadness caused by each of these tragedies, nothing has really changed in term of risk. One can take virtually any period of months or years during the past few decades and find a series of shootings that seemed at the time to signal a new epidemic. The ‘80s were marked by a flurry of deadly postal shootings, which gave rise to the term “going postal.” The ‘90s witnessed a string of mass shootings in middle and high schools carried out by alienated adolescents with access to borrowed guns, prompting the venerable Dan Rather to declare an epidemic of school violence.

 

[frigidweirdo]

People don't like paying for stuff that they paid for themselves. In other words, my daughter sat in college with me paying the full load. Next to her with the same classes was a person not paying a dime. You can say what you want but that is human nature. Work your ass off to build a nest egg to have it taken by someone else just doesn't seem right.

As for colleges if it were not for the generousity of the government the cost of an education wouldn't be skyrocketing. And the cost is skyrocketing not because the education is getting better but because the administration of the colleges are raping the tax payers and those who pay their own way. So yeah there is selfishness, selfishness in liberals who run PP getting million dollar pay checks. Or a college administrator, more likely being a liberal, getting HUGE increases in pay.

Societies spending on inner city education grows every year. There are those who were able to go through the inner city education and rise above it. A person makes a choice(S), sink or swim. In my opinion we are making it easy for the person just to float along not really joining into society or striving for success.

Add that to the FACT that the same jobs that might bring the poor, white or black, out of the ghettos are being subsidized and given to illegal immigrants or those we are flooding our country with from the ME. When does it stop????

Black people want to work as much as white people. But unfortunately our immigration policy is helping keep those same poor people in poverty.

I understand that people are always thinking about their own money, and they want more money, and they want to be supremely wealthy and things like that.

The cost of education is so high because of the attitude of the government which is run by selfish people always thinking about their own pockets all the time. Apparently private is ALWAYS better. Is it? Do they get a better education because it's private, or just it costs more money per student because of profits that have to be had?

Yeah, sure, money being thrown at education isn't the answer. The answer is having GOOD education. Politicians are not concerned with good education, but showing that they're doing something, or not doing something. They're concerned with how it appears on TV and the voters lap up the crap and ignore the reality.

However your view about immigrants I think misses the point. If inner city kids were being trained well enough to go out into the real world, immigrants would be taking jobs that these inner city kids wouldn't be going for in the first place. Immigration IS an issue, don't get me wrong, but I think here it's not the issue that needs to be looked at. It's a way of avoiding the real issues.

 

[Mac1958]

People continue to die and little is changing.
.

A lot is changing. Homicide is considerably down from 20 years ago. Violent crime has greatly dropped. Contemporary times are relatively safe compared the 17th-20th centuries. You probably live in the safest time in human history.

Are you comfortable with the status quo? If not, where is there room for improvement?
.

 

[robertacollier]

Are you comfortable with the status quo? If not, where is there room for improvement?
.

Gun ownership and concealed carry have risen, but the homicide rate has dropped. I'd say that is a big improvement.

Life is fraught with peril, obstacles, small risk, and things you just don't like. Our Safety Culture has gone so far overboard on so many items. The room for improvement is cutting out the regulation that takes away a person's ability, natural senses, etc. to be responsible for oneself. People have even lost so much of their five senses that they can't even determine the basics of a good piece of meat.

 

[Iron Head]

This is a false issue. Gun crimes are way down. This incorrect perception is the fault of the media who sensationalizes everyone of these shootings.

Fuck it, I am hunkering down on this one and stocking up on hi-cap mags, ammo, and picking up a couple pieces I have been wanting.