*Hamas War Will Carry, ON and ON!!!*

[Sherlock Holmes]

We (meaning we in the West) really have to stop framing it this way. It serves no one to perpetuate the idea of "subjugation" of Palestinian Arabs.

The Arab Palestinians have self-government in both Gaza and the West Bank. What they do with that self-government, by definition, is up to them. If those governments want better and more mutually beneficial relationships with their neighbors, the solution is negotiation -- not violence.

The solution is well known, it is to adhere to international law embodied in the many decisions of the United Nations. It is because the Zionist regime refuses to do so that we have violence.

 

[Failzero]

There is barely half a Hamas Brigade Left in Rafah

 

[Shusha]

The Israelis are an illegal occupying force and the Palestinians are suffering under an occupation, the people - The Palestinians - have a collective right under international law to resist even violently, that occupation no matter whether they as individuals happen to reside on occupied territory or not.

For clarity, what territory is Israel "illegally occupying", in your mind? Because this comment:

The Zionist monstrosity must be destroyed, wiped off the face of the earth just as was done with the Third Reich in 1945, that regime too was based on racial supremacy and a thirst for territory while ethnically cleansing the land from its inhabitants and Zionist Israel just like the Third Reich will fail, bringing nothing but misery not only to its enemies but to its own people.

leads me to believe that you consider the entirety of the Mandate for Palestine illegally occupied. Do I understand you correctly?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

The definition of terrorism makes no reference to "rogue" it is defined as the use of violence and terror in pursuit of political change, by that definition then Hamas and the Israelis are each terrorist forces, the 1948 ethnic cleansing was an example of terrorism - violence for political gains in this case territorial gains.

The Israelis are an illegal occupying force and the Palestinians are suffering under an occupation, the people - The Palestinians - have a collective right under international law to resist even violently, that occupation no matter whether they as individuals happen to reside on occupied territory or not.

The "necessary" response depends upon the objectives, if the objective is to continue the illegal occupation and even continue to seize more territory and build more settlements then what Israel is doing today is clearly in furtherance of that goal. If the objective is to reduce the probability of a future attack on Israeli civilians then one way to achieve that is to cease the illegal occupation, free all Palestinians held under administrative detention (aka hostages), cease settlement building and comply with the many UN resolutions that Israel is in breach of.

Where do you think many of the Palestinians go after their farms have been burned down, their olive trees burned and their homes destroyed by extremist settlers? They go to Gaza and they stay there because the Gaza strip is like an open prison.

The cause of the restrictions on Gaza is the Israelis, they built the wall, they approve (and disapprove) medicine import and medical equipment imports, they deny free passage between Gaza and the West Bank, they even once occupied Gaza by expelling Palestinians and building settlements there. The Gaza "barrier" is illegal and was declared so by the ICJ.

Read this from Israel's own B'Tselem, emphasis mine:



The Zionist monstrosity must be destroyed, wiped off the face of the earth just as was done with the Third Reich in 1945, that regime too was based on racial supremacy and a thirst for territory while ethnically cleansing the land from its inhabitants and Zionist Israel just like the Third Reich will fail, bringing nothing but misery not only to its enemies but to its own people.

Israel is today one of the most dangerous places in the world for Orthodox Jews, the irony. I'll leave you with this, if the people in Gaza were Jews and they were being bombed, repeatedly told to "evacuate" from one place to another, with schools and hospitals being attacked and women and children shot while entering places of worship and were being denied food, anesthetics, water and supplies and had a wall built to keep them in while this was all taking place, I think we both know how that would be described in the Western press...

Israel started working on a buffer zone inside the Gaza Strip. According to media reports, it will be about one kilometer wide, stretch along the entire border with Israel, about 60 kilometers, and feature military posts, paved roads and surveillance devices. The area will be off limits to Palestinians – even those who lived or cultivated fields in it before the war.

The Arabs fucked up, they should lose something.
Maybe they'll learn to behave?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

For clarity, what territory is Israel "illegally occupying", in your mind? Because this comment:

leads me to believe that you consider the entirety of the Mandate for Palestine illegally occupied. Do I understand you correctly?

No, you did not understand me correctly. This should clarify things:

When the Third Reich was wiped off the map, did Germany continue to exist? does it exist today? do people live there today? do Germans live there today?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Israel started working on a buffer zone inside the Gaza Strip. According to media reports, it will be about one kilometer wide, stretch along the entire border with Israel, about 60 kilometers, and feature military posts, paved roads and surveillance devices. The area will be off limits to Palestinians – even those who lived or cultivated fields in it before the war.

The Arabs fucked up, they should lose something.
Maybe they'll learn to behave?

Are you claiming that every person in Gaza is an Arab? if so how did you arrive at that conclusion?

 

[Failzero]

Are you claiming that every person in Gaza is an Arab? if so how did you arrive at that conclusion?

There are Bedouins and Half Tunisians and Egyptians and Syrians …

 

[Shusha]

No, you did not understand me correctly. This should clarify things:

View attachment 970177

When the Third Reich was wiped off the map, did Germany continue to exist? does it exist today? do people live there today? do Germans live there today?

Thanks. I appreciate the clarification.

Given that "occupation" is defined as a sovereign State occupying the territory of another State, and given that there is no legal agreement or treaty which delineates the specific borders between Israel and another state (other than Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria which I presume we are not discussing), there can not be, by definition, an occupation. Indeed, Israel withdrew from Gaza and has no control there (until the October War) and Israel has an existing treaty with the government of "Palestine" which delineates the territories in the West Bank and their legal political control (which Israel honors).

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Thanks. I appreciate the clarification.

Given that "occupation" is defined as a sovereign State occupying the territory of another State, and given that there is no legal agreement or treaty which delineates the specific borders between Israel and another state (other than Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria which I presume we are not discussing), there can not be, by definition, an occupation. Indeed, Israel withdrew from Gaza and has no control there (until the October War) and Israel has an existing treaty with the government of "Palestine" which delineates the territories in the West Bank and their legal political control (which Israel honors).

Since the occupation of the West Bank in 1967, numerous United Nations resolutions, including 446, 452, 465, 471 and 476 affirm unambiguously that Israel's occupation is illegal,[36] and, since Resolution 446 adopted on 22 March 1979, have confirmed that its settlements there have no legal validity and pose a serious obstacle to peace.[37]

Source: Wikipedia

That Israel is an illegal occupier is not seriously disputed. Zionist Israel is a rogue, criminal enterprise and must be stopped. There are more UN resolutions levelled at Israel than all other countries combined.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There are Bedouins and Half Tunisians and Egyptians and Syrians …

There are likely Jews too, mixed race people, descendants of former clans and tribes, particularly Israelite tribes even Italians (Romans) and many other groups. The state of Israel is a racist project, it is rooted in giving preference to "Jews" above other groups. Jews have benefits denied to non-Jews. Israeli citizens carry ID cards with them and those cards state if the holder is a Jew or a member of some other group, the ID cards impacts the ability to move freely around, to buy land, apply for jobs and so on.

 

[Shusha]

Source: Wikipedia

That Israel is an illegal occupier is not seriously disputed. Zionist Israel is a rogue, criminal enterprise and must be stopped. There are more UN resolutions levelled at Israel than all other countries combined.

There are extremely valid legal arguments to the contrary, and the UN is incompetent in not upholding international law.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Are you claiming that every person in Gaza is an Arab? if so how did you arrive at that conclusion?

How many aren't? A few thousand?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Source: Wikipedia

That Israel is an illegal occupier is not seriously disputed. Zionist Israel is a rogue, criminal enterprise and must be stopped. There are more UN resolutions levelled at Israel than all other countries combined.

Since the occupation of the West Bank in 1967

What country was the West Bank?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

There are extremely valid legal arguments to the contrary, and the UN is incompetent in not upholding international law.

Well we'll wait and see shall we, the ICJ are currently considering this question. But if Israel is not breaking any laws, doing anything wrong by "occupying" parts of territory that it seized control of in 1967, then by definition other neighboring states would not be acting illegally if they occupied part of said territory too.

If Jordan or Lebanon were to invade and capture territory, they too could argue as you are doing.

Do you approve of the settlement building that has become more popular these past eight months? do you regard that activity as legal? do you think the occupants being ejected from their homes have no rights? they should just walk away and not react, not object, not fight?

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Since the occupation of the West Bank in 1967

What country was the West Bank?

You mean before 1967? It was part of what's now termed Palestinian Territory. It was occupied by Jordan and had been since 1948, Israel took over occupancy in 1967. The British administered it since 1917 after pushing out the Ottomans. Then agreed that they'd end that mandated administration, carve the place up and give half to a bunch of militant Zionist terrorists.

The partitioning of Palestine that took place to create Israel in 1947 was fraught with problems, not least of which was the problem that a Jewish nation state was about to be created by outsiders (the former colonial powers) that would include huge numbers of non-Jews. There was no election, no democracy, people would and were simply forced to wake up one day and find they are living in some other country with new laws and so on, a country that emphasized Jewishness.

The region should NEVER have been partitioned, certainly not by the authority of outside powers. There were people already there, living there and had been since before the time of Christ. A single state of Palestine would have been far far better and then every person - be they Jew, Arab, Egyptian, English, African everyone would have their vote in a truly mixed democracy like we enjoy in the US, UK and elsewhere.

But it was not to be, sadly the British had long plotted with an increasingly militant mutation of Zionism, to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and establish Jewish settlements. The Zionists were all in favor of the partitioning in the late 1940s, especially as they were to get > 50% of the territory!

The Arabs/Palestinians wanted nothing to do with this plan, the overnight manufacture of a country that met the needs of the British, Canadians, Americans and so on. Those people ALREADY lived there, scattered all over Palestine and to a huge degree without conflict, there was no Muslim/Jew hatred or politics back then. Jews had live peacefully with Arabs in the region for untold hundreds of years.

Did you know too that huge numbers of European Jews after WW2 did not want to go to Israel? They had lived and had roots in Europe, but the victors of WW2 did not want them, they were eager to use Palestine as a way to handle the huge Jewish refugee problem - who cares if it leads to a few hundred thousand Palestinian peasants being ethnically cleansed...

It's not commonly understood but Israel has chosen for decades, to pursue expansion over security, they chose to sacrifice security in exchange for annexing territory. They had a choice but they wanted expansion more than security. Stealing land, ethnically cleansing people will unsurprisingly make them angry, very angry, I'd be angry and so would you.

The only way they could get away with this huge crime was to lie, to misrepresent reality and with the help of the United States, UK and others that's what they've been doing. They made up stories about Muslims hating Jews, about Arabs being fanatical, primitives who are impossible to live peacefully with and they they blame all the problems on those people, the abuser became the victim and the Western press and media play along and have been for decades.

The fanatical Zionists cry "antisemite" when they are confronted with these facts and that's has been working for decades, that strategy of using antisemitism and the Holocaust as tools to help cover up huge crimes against humanity is despicable, sickening and it has to stop.

Don't listen to me though, listen to a Jew, one who's entire family were wiped out by the Nazis, perhaps he'll help you understand:



Israel today has nothing whatsoever to do with creating a homeland for Jews, helping Jews recover after the Holocaust, it has zero to do with these aims and never did. It was and is a racist and xenophobic project rooted in territorial expansion and Jew supremacy and has brought suffering to Jew and non-Jew alike and people need to wake up and speak out against this latter day clone of the Third Reich.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You mean before 1967? It was part of what's now termed Palestinian Territory. It was occupied by Jordan and had been since 1948, Israel took over occupancy in 1967. The British administered it since 1917 after pushing out the Ottomans. Then agreed that they'd end that mandated administration, carve the place up and give half to a bunch of militant Zionist terrorists.

The partitioning of Palestine that took place to create Israel in 1947 was fraught with problems, not least of which was the problem that a Jewish nation state was about to be created by outsiders (the former colonial powers) that would include huge numbers of non-Jews. There was no election, no democracy, people would and were simply forced to wake up one day and find they are living in some other country with new laws and so on, a country that emphasized Jewishness.

The region should NEVER have been partitioned, certainly not by the authority of outside powers. There were people already there, living there and had been since before the time of Christ. A single state of Palestine would have been far far better and then every person - be they Jew, Arab, Egyptian, English, African everyone would have their vote in a truly mixed democracy like we enjoy in the US, UK and elsewhere.

But it was not to be, sadly the British had long plotted with an increasingly militant mutation of Zionism, to ethnically cleanse Palestinians and establish Jewish settlements. The Zionists were all in favor of the partitioning in the late 1940s, especially as they were to get > 50% of the territory!

The Arabs/Palestinians wanted nothing to do with this plan, the overnight manufacture of a country that met the needs of the British, Canadians, Americans and so on. Those people ALREADY lived there, scattered all over Palestine and to a huge degree without conflict, there was no Muslim/Jew hatred or politics back then. Jews had live peacefully with Arabs in the region for untold hundreds of years.

Did you know too that huge numbers of European Jews after WW2 did not want to go to Israel? They had lived and had roots in Europe, but the victors of WW2 did not want them, they were eager to use Palestine as a way to handle the huge Jewish refugee problem - who cares if it leads to a few hundred thousand Palestinian peasants being ethnically cleansed...

It's not commonly understood but Israel has chosen for decades, to pursue expansion over security, they chose to sacrifice security in exchange for annexing territory. They had a choice but they wanted expansion more than security. Stealing land, ethnically cleansing people will unsurprisingly make them angry, very angry, I'd be angry and so would you.

The only way they could get away with this huge crime was to lie, to misrepresent reality and with the help of the United States, UK and others that's what they've been doing. They made up stories about Muslims hating Jews, about Arabs being fanatical, primitives who are impossible to live peacefully with and they they blame all the problems on those people, the abuser became the victim and the Western press and media play along and have been for decades.

The fanatical Zionists cry "antisemite" when they are confronted with these facts and that's has been working for decades, that strategy of using antisemitism and the Holocaust as tools to help cover up huge crimes against humanity is despicable, sickening and it has to stop.

Don't listen to me though, listen to a Jew, one who's entire family were wiped out by the Nazis, perhaps he'll help you understand:



Israel today has nothing whatsoever to do with creating a homeland for Jews, helping Jews recover after the Holocaust, it has zero to do with these aims and never did. It was and is a racist and xenophobic project rooted in territorial expansion and Jew supremacy and has brought suffering to Jew and non-Jew alike and people need to wake up and speak out against this latter day clone of the Third Reich.

You mean before 1967? It was part of what's now termed Palestinian Territory. It was occupied by Jordan and had been since 1948, Israel took over occupancy in 1967.

It wasn't part of a country before 1948. It wasn't part of a country from 1948-1967.
It wasn't part of a country after 1967. So how is it occupied territory?


Those people ALREADY lived there, scattered all over Palestine and to a huge degree without conflict, there was no Muslim/Jew hatred or politics back then. Jews had live peacefully with Arabs in the region for untold hundreds of years.

Except for the occasional massacre of Jews.

 

[Shusha]

But if Israel is not ... doing anything wrong by "occupying" parts of territory that it seized control of in 1967, then by definition other neighboring states would not be acting illegally if they occupied part of said territory too.

The relevant question is what territory within the Mandate for Palestine is NOT Jordan, Egypt or Israel and what legal instruments created boundaries which differentiates Jordan, Egypt, or Israel from said entity.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

The relevant question is what territory within the Mandate for Palestine is NOT Jordan, Egypt or Israel and what legal instruments created boundaries which differentiates Jordan, Egypt, or Israel from said entity.

Actually the most relevant question is what are the Israeli people going to do as they ride the train of destruction known as Zionism. The entire enterprise is doomed, it was doomed before Israel was created, even some Jews could see that. The Zionist regime is unsustainable, it would likely collapse within months if the US stopped providing "aid" and "defensive weapons".

Free money at the expense of the US taxpayer, the US public are being used to prop-up a reincarnation of the Third Reich, how ironic life can be.

We can discuss history all day, we can bicker about what "occupation" means all day, these are only relevant insofar as gaining an understanding of how we got here, but frankly this is unimportant now.

The UN is impotent with Israel simply because the US is a permanent member of the security council and can veto any resolution it wants, the US in fact has vetoed more resolutions during the history of the UN than any of the other permanent members.

Ultimately the blame for what we are seeing today lies with the United States, it enables Israel to act with impunity, it's support has led to the far-right getting even more fascist that ever before. The mindset of these people is sheer brutality exactly the same mindset as the leaders of the Third Reich had.

Look at this from todays news - this should make it clear we are dealing with a deranged racist regime:

This is how the Nazis operated, it is how the spoke, how they treated the "vermin". Men, women and children are being slaughtered, maimed, crushed and paralyzed day after day after day. In the Zionist mind nothing is off-limits, everything no matter how violent, cruel or brutal is permitted, they are lawless, they are war criminals and must be stopped.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

You mean before 1967? It was part of what's now termed Palestinian Territory. It was occupied by Jordan and had been since 1948, Israel took over occupancy in 1967.

It wasn't part of a country before 1948. It wasn't part of a country from 1948-1967.
It wasn't part of a country after 1967. So how is it occupied territory?


Those people ALREADY lived there, scattered all over Palestine and to a huge degree without conflict, there was no Muslim/Jew hatred or politics back then. Jews had live peacefully with Arabs in the region for untold hundreds of years.

Except for the occasional massacre of Jews.

I never said it was "part of a country" so why are you speaking as if I did?

Which massacres are you referring to specifically? certainly not the six million who perished during WW2? that was carried out by white educated civilized Europeans not Arabs.

 

[Failzero]

Israel announced today that they are in Mop Up Phase in Gaza / Rafah .