Henotheism and Atheism

[Meriweather]

neither do you

Actually, I do. There just is no physical proof, which is what holds you back.

 

[Meriweather]

But all those different altered mental states are often described as spiritual.

Hallucinations and altered states of mind are not experiences of God (spiritual experiences).

 

[Meriweather]

So now you are implying that i am childish. And you accuse me of belittlement.

I am implying nothing....but it tells me what you are inferring. What I am outright saying is that you say you have no interest and no experiences of God, yet you, of no experience, are quick to tell those who have experience or belief, they are wrong, that they invented everything, that it is just the mind acting a bit off. Yes, the mind can get things wrong--all of us have probably heard stories of people feeling pain or an itch in an amputated limb. This tells us that if the mind gets things wrong presenting the physical realm, there is every chance it might sometimes get things wrong presenting the spiritual realm. This does not mean that the mind always gets things wrong in either realm.

By the way, I never said you were belittling me, but were belittling something you have not studied in depth and of which you have no experience. That would be like people who belittle an area of study (say physics) because they have no interest or use for physics.

 

[Blues Man]

neither do you

Actually, I do. There just is no physical proof, which is what holds you back.

What you believe and what is actual are not necessarily the same thing

 

[Blues Man]

But all those different altered mental states are often described as spiritual.

Hallucinations and altered states of mind are not experiences of God (spiritual experiences).

Of course they are.

One can alter his state of consciousness via prayer just as one can with meditation

Spend some time in a sensory deprivation tank and see where your mind goes.

 

[Blues Man]

So now you are implying that i am childish. And you accuse me of belittlement.

I am implying nothing....but it tells me what you are inferring. What I am outright saying is that you say you have no interest and no experiences of God, yet you, of no experience, are quick to tell those who have experience or belief, they are wrong, that they invented everything, that it is just the mind acting a bit off. Yes, the mind can get things wrong--all of us have probably heard stories of people feeling pain or an itch in an amputated limb. This tells us that if the mind gets things wrong presenting the physical realm, there is every chance it might sometimes get things wrong presenting the spiritual realm. This does not mean that the mind always gets things wrong in either realm.

By the way, I never said you were belittling me, but were belittling something you have not studied in depth and of which you have no experience. That would be like people who belittle an area of study (say physics) because they have no interest or use for physics.

And you say that since I do not seek a god that my experience with spirituality is like a child's toy not a mansion.

As if your own spiritual experiences are somehow grander than mine because I do not seek what you do.

And why don't you quote the post where I belittled anything or anyone in this discussion.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't agree that your belief in a god somehow elevates your experiences over those of other people who do not believe in that god.

Everyone is capable of that type of experience whether they believe in gods or not.

You have been claiming that that it is the mind that produces the experience, but you have not described what that experience is, whether you were aware before, during, or after that you had put your mind in an altered state. We agree that anyone can force their mind into an altered state, but is this altered state an experience of God? For example, dreams can present all different kinds of experiences, but people can readily identify what is dream, what is physical reality. A dream is not a spiritual experience. I suggest that when the mind is in a man-induced altered state, it may be better described as in a dream state than an actual experience of God. What say you?

By the way, I am not elevating my experience, I am describing it just like one does with a science experiment. Describing what is happening in a science experiment is not elevating one aspect of the experiment over the other.

 

[Meriweather]

What you believe and what you know aren't necessarily the same thing

Of course they are not the same thing! I know God is. I believe God is behind the creation of the world--but I do not know that He did.

 

[Meriweather]

Of course they are.

One can alter his state of consciousness via prayer just as one can with meditation

Spend some time in a sensory deprivation tank and see where your mind goes.

I am telling you they are not, not anywhere close.

 

[Meriweather]

And you say that since I do not seek a god that my experience with spirituality is like a child's toy not a mansion.

As if your own spiritual experiences are somehow grander than mine because I do not seek what you do.

And why don't you quote the post where I belittled anything or anyone in this discussion.

Try to understand. There are spiritual experiences and there are experiences of God. An altered state of mind or a dream-like state of mind in no way compares to God. Nor do I claim my experiences are grander--in fact I concede your experiences are likely to be far more grand.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't agree that your belief in a god somehow elevates your experiences over those of other people who do not believe in that god.

Everyone is capable of that type of experience whether they believe in gods or not.

You have been claiming that that it is the mind that produces the experience, but you have not described what that experience is, whether you were aware before, during, or after that you had put your mind in an altered state. We agree that anyone can force their mind into an altered state, but is this altered state an experience of God? For example, dreams can present all different kinds of experiences, but people can readily identify what is dream, what is physical reality. A dream is not a spiritual experience. I suggest that when the mind is in a man-induced altered state, it may be better described as in a dream state than an actual experience of God. What say you?

By the way, I am not elevating my experience, I am describing it just like one does with a science experiment. Describing what is happening in a science experiment is not elevating one aspect of the experiment over the other.

Is your spiritual experience with a god anything but an altered state of consciousness.

And you made a comparison between my spiritual experiences with your own that is not describing my experiences that is you making a value judgement. You cannot know what my experiences were yet you make the comparison to a child's toy.

I cannot know what your spiritual experiences are and I don't judge them. You and I just have 2 different beliefs on how we understand spiritual experiences. You think they are external and depend on the existence of a god. i think they are internal and offer a better understanding of one's own mind and therefore one's own self.

 

[Blues Man]

Of course they are.

One can alter his state of consciousness via prayer just as one can with meditation

Spend some time in a sensory deprivation tank and see where your mind goes.

I am telling you they are not, not anywhere close.

For who?

You?

You have no basis to make a comparison between your spiritual experiences and mine.

 

[Blues Man]

And you say that since I do not seek a god that my experience with spirituality is like a child's toy not a mansion.

As if your own spiritual experiences are somehow grander than mine because I do not seek what you do.

And why don't you quote the post where I belittled anything or anyone in this discussion.

Try to understand. There are spiritual experiences and there are experiences of God. An altered state of mind or a dream-like state of mind in no way compares to God. Nor do I claim my experiences are grander--in fact I concede your experiences are likely to be far more grand.

Again that is your perception. I make no distinction between the 2

 

[Meriweather]

And you made a comparison between my spiritual experiences with your own that is not describing my experiences that is you making a value judgement. You cannot know what my experiences were yet you make the comparison to a child's toy.

From what I gather, you do not believe in spirit, you believe in mind. You are describing what your mind does under certain circumstances, correct?

I am not making a value judgement. I am noting the differences between mind and spirit. I have already said your mind experiences most likely surpass my own experience of God. My point is, you are talking mind while I am talking spirit. I say they are different, you claim they are one and the same. I am comparing an altered mind state to the playhouse as compared to the experience of God. I did use the word mansion, but we can replace that with the word shed if you like.

 

[Meriweather]

s your spiritual experience with a god anything but an altered state of consciousness.

Yes. No altered state of consciousness.

 

[Meriweather]

You and I just have 2 different beliefs on how we understand spiritual experiences. You think they are external and depend on the existence of a god. i think they are internal and offer a better understanding of one's own mind and therefore one's own self.

Wrong. I believe we are talking about two different things. I differentiate between mind and spirit. You seem to believe they are one and the same.

 

[Meriweather]

For who?

You?

You have no basis to make a comparison between your spiritual experiences and mine.

You are speaking of an altered state of consciousness whereas I am not. This is not making a comparison, there is no comparison. I am pointing out the difference between mind and spirit. You are insisting there is no difference, that we are talking about the same thing. We are not.

 

[Blues Man]

And you made a comparison between my spiritual experiences with your own that is not describing my experiences that is you making a value judgement. You cannot know what my experiences were yet you make the comparison to a child's toy.

From what I gather, you do not believe in spirit, you believe in mind. You are describing what your mind does under certain circumstances, correct?

I am not making a value judgement. I am noting the differences between mind and spirit. I have already said your mind experiences most likely surpass my own experience of God. My point is, you are talking mind while I am talking spirit. I say they are different, you claim they are one and the same. I am comparing an altered mind state to the playhouse as compared to the experience of God. I did use the word mansion, but we can replace that with the word shed if you like.

Spirit is a manifestation of the mind. A spiritual experience is not produced by some external force but from within one's own mind. You cannot know my experiences. i cannot know yours.

You are making assumptions based on your belief in a god.

 

[Meriweather]

I make no distinction between the 2

That has been my point. You make no distinction.

 

[Meriweather]

Spirit is a manifestation of the mind. A spiritual experience is not produced by some external force but from within one's own mind. You cannot know my experiences. i cannot know yours.

You are making assumptions based on your belief in a god.

I am making no assumptions. You believe it is all in the mind, that is your belief, your assumption. I see both and I see the distinct differences. I am merely trying to describe them.