CDZ Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

[easyt65]

There has been a great deal of 'Monday Morning Quarterbacking', speculaiton, and opinion on the issue.

'War is hail', people - many innocents - die as a result. WHO is to blame? WAR is supposed to tbe the last resort of a nation to achieve their objectives when every other alternative, to include peaceful negotiations, has failed. Both Japan and Nazi Germany chose to use it as their 1st choice to achieve their goals. Many innocent people were killed not only as a result of their aggression but in the necessary response to that aggression. Hitler and Japan's Emperor, motivated by greed and hunger for power, are originally to blame. Hopefully thw rold learned something from the use of these two weapons and will put that knowledge to good use.

Iran is about to derail any hope of that. Iran, run by leaders who believe in a 12th Imam and that to bring him out one must bring about armageddon, sees nuclear weapons as an opportunity to destroy it's enemies, perpetrate the genocide of Israel, and bring about their version of the end of times. Where anyone else has learned the hooros of the use of nuclear weapons, in Iran's mind it has nothing to lose.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No. It's not even debatable. There has never been nor will there ever be an unconditional surrender.

What terms did we grant to Nazi Germany, rather than their unconditional surrender?

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Um.... cite?

I already have.

Really?
What post?

 

[M14 Shooter]

from the Allied firebombing of Dresden in World War II to the massacres at My Lai in the Vietnam War and Fallujah in the Iraq War, civilian populations have been consistently targeted in our military conflicts.
The Unsettling Truth About America s Attack On Nagasaki

War is hell.

 

[2aguy]

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Dishonest...they wanted to keep what they had taken.....non starter...just ask the Chinese, Fillipinos, and all the rest who suffered under Japanese occupation...

 

[Unkotare]

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Dishonest...they wanted to keep what they had taken.....non starter...just ask the Chinese, Fillipinos, and all the rest who suffered under Japanese occupation...

So, the atomic bombs were about revenge then?

 

[jwoodie]

So, the atomic bombs were about revenge then?

So the fire bombing of Dresden wasn't about revenge then?

Q. Which country engaged in chemical and biological warfare during WW2 and also brutally tortured POWs?

 

[Unkotare]

So, the atomic bombs were about revenge then?

So the fire bombing of Dresden wasn't about revenge then??

You think that killing civilians as an act of revenge against a military is a morally defensible approach?

 

[jwoodie]

You think that killing civilians as an act of revenge against a military is a morally defensible approach?

You think that constantly changing the subject is a substitute for rational debate?

 

[Unkotare]

You think that killing civilians as an act of revenge against a military is a morally defensible approach?

You think that constantly changing the subject is a substitute for rational debate?

Ask someone who changed the subject. I did not.

 

[easyt65]

I think we all agree that using nuclear weapons on innocent men, women, and children for any reason is not only moronic and wrong but also is morally unacceptable.

If that is the case, then WHY are we even talking about accepting the current Obama 'deal' with Iran that EVERYONE knows (even if it is deep down in your heart and you are unwilling to say so publicly) is somplete and utter B$, appeasement, and will do NOTHING to discourage Iran from getting nuclear weapons.

Obama was 'forced' to agree that Israel's right to exist be 'pulled off the table' - as in NOT acceptable by Iran, the nation that throughout the negotiations openly declared 'death to America' and that they would uke Irsael given the chance.

If you think using nuclear weapons on 2 cities of a country that threatened and imposed war on a major portion of the globe was wrong / bad, what do you think is going to happen when Iran gets nukes?

 

[M14 Shooter]

I think we all agree that using nuclear weapons on innocent men, women, and children for any reason is not only moronic and wrong but also is morally unacceptable.

I have no moral issue with our nuking of Japan - war is war; we did far more damage and killed far more people with conventional weapons.

Any path that leads to a nuclear-capable Iran, sooner or later, leads to war.

 

[2aguy]

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Dishonest...they wanted to keep what they had taken.....non starter...just ask the Chinese, Fillipinos, and all the rest who suffered under Japanese occupation...

So, the atomic bombs were about revenge then?

No. Had the Japanese surrendered they would not have dropped the bombs. If Japan had surrendered and they still dropped the bombs..that would have been about revenge.

 

[Unkotare]

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Dishonest...they wanted to keep what they had taken.....non starter...just ask the Chinese, Fillipinos, and all the rest who suffered under Japanese occupation...

So, the atomic bombs were about revenge then?

No. Had the Japanese surrendered they would not have dropped the bombs. If Japan had surrendered and they still dropped the bombs..that would have been about revenge.

What if their ability to wage war had already been stripped? What if there were indications of an attempt to negotiate peace?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Offering a ceasefire and return to the 1941 start lines IS NOT an offer to surrender. And that is all they offered.

Go back and read what I posted. The only sticking point was that the emperor be left. In the end----they got that too. Try again.

They got a ceasefire with no troops entering Japan and the return to 1941 start lines? What fantasy world do you live in?

 

[Disir]

No. It's not even debatable. There has never been nor will there ever be an unconditional surrender.

What terms did we grant to Nazi Germany, rather than their unconditional surrender?

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Um.... cite?

I already have.

Really?
What post?

Pick any of the first several.

 

[Disir]

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Offering a ceasefire and return to the 1941 start lines IS NOT an offer to surrender. And that is all they offered.

Go back and read what I posted. The only sticking point was that the emperor be left. In the end----they got that too. Try again.

They got a ceasefire with no troops entering Japan and the return to 1941 start lines? What fantasy world do you live in?

Only sticking point was the Emperor. Brought it to you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No. It's not even debatable. There has never been nor will there ever be an unconditional surrender.

What terms did we grant to Nazi Germany, rather than their unconditional surrender?

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Still waiting for your citation to this effect.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

 

[Disir]

No. It's not even debatable. There has never been nor will there ever be an unconditional surrender.

What terms did we grant to Nazi Germany, rather than their unconditional surrender?

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Still waiting for your citation to this effect.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

What's this?
Avalon Project - German Surrender Documents

Is anything in there related to civilian government? No. It's not.

So, then what happened, hero?

Now, go back and read through the rest of my posts.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

All the Japanese offered even after the first atomic bomb was a ceasefire. No troops allowed in Japan a return to the 41 start lines and no adverse policy or actions against Japan or its possessions in China and Korea. Ohh did I mention they also wanted the return of all their lost territory? That is not an offer to surrender.

 

[Disir]

All the Japanese offered even after the first atomic bomb was a ceasefire. No troops allowed in Japan a return to the 41 start lines and no adverse policy or actions against Japan or its possessions in China and Korea. Ohh did I mention they also wanted the return of all their lost territory? That is not an offer to surrender.

Difficulty reading?