CDZ Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

[Disir]

Why was it necessary to drop the nuclear bomb if LeMay was burning up Japan? And he went on from Tokyo to firebomb other cities. 58% of Yokohama. Yokohama is roughly the size of Cleveland. 58% of Cleveland destroyed. Tokyo is roughly the size of New York. 51% percent of New York destroyed. 99% of the equivalent of Chattanooga, which was Toyama. 40% of the equivalent of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya. This was all done before the dropping of the nuclear bomb, which by the way was dropped by LeMay's command.

And they still hadn't surrendered did they?


They dropped 2 bombs and the Japanese surrendered.....

You're clearly lost. Go back to my posts and read through them.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Japan started and lost a war. All else said is mental masturbation.

Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war".

Japan let slip and subjects of that Empire's Emperor paid a horrific price according to western values, but their own behavior and values would have had them dropping tens of A-bombs without regard for any conversation afterwards

fouk Howard Zinn, a good man who embraced celebrity while burying his own guilt in leftie bullcrap

 

[2aguy]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Mod Edit -- No profanity against posters XXXXX. ...those cities were,industrial areas.......and wasting a bomb over water would have been just that...a waste....they were not surrendering...and after the bombs dropped.....they surrendered.....

How nice to pass judgement from 2015.....how brave of you.....

 

[2aguy]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Hiroshima was both an industrial site and military site....

Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of both industrial and military significance. A number of military units were located nearby, the most important of which was the headquarters of Field Marshal Shunroku Hata's Second General Army, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan,[104] and was located in Hiroshima Castle. Hata's command consisted of some 400,000 men, most of whom were on Kyushu where an Allied invasion was correctly anticipated.[105] Also present in Hiroshima were the headquarters of the 59th Army, the 5th Divisionand the 224th Division, a recently formed mobile unit.[106]The city was defended by five batteries of 7-and-8-centimeter (2.8 and 3.1 in) anti-aircraft guns of the 3rd Anti-Aircraft Division, including units from the 121st and 122nd Anti-Aircraft Regiments and the 22nd and 45th Separate Anti-Aircraft Battalions. In total, over 40,000 military personnel were stationed in the city.[107]

Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military, but it also had large stockpiles of military supplies.[108] The city was also a communications center, a key port for shipping and an assembly area for troops.[73] It was also the second largest city in Japan after Kyoto that was still undamaged by air raids,[109] due to the fact that it lacked the aircraft manufacturing industry that was the XXI Bomber Command's priority target. On July 3, the Joint Chiefs of Staff placed it off limits to bombers, along with Kokura, Niigata and Kyoto.[110]

 

[2aguy]

and Nagasaki was also a real target....


Nagasaki during World War II


The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest seaports in southern Japan, and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The four largest companies in the city were Mitsubishi Shipyards, Electrical Shipyards, Arms Plant, and Steel and Arms Works, which employed about 90% of the city's labor force, and accounted for 90% of the city's industry.[169] Although an important industrial city, Nagasaki had been spared from firebombing because its geography made it difficult to locate at night with AN/APQ-13 radar.[110]

Unlike the other target cities, Nagasaki had not been placed off limits to bombers by the Joint Chiefs of Staff's July 3 directive,[110][170] and was bombed on a small scale five times. During one of these raids on August 1, a number of conventional high-explosive bombs were dropped on the city. A few hit the shipyards and dock areas in the southwest portion of the city, and several hit the Mitsubishi Steel and Arms Works.[169] By early August, the city was defended by the IJA 134th Anti-Aircraft Regiment of the 4th Anti-Aircraft Division with four batteries of 7 cm (2.8 in) anti-aircraft guns and two searchlight batteries.[107]

so both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets...so all the hand wringing and bitching and moaning from 2015 is stupid and foolish and stinks of the superiority complex to many lefty nuts have as part of their DNA...

 

[Unkotare]

5 of every 6 deaths from the bombings was civilian, not military.

http://www.domlife.org/justice/Disarmament/bombfactsheet.pdf

 

[Socialist]

I have a thread regarding the bombs, i advise you all read it, it's on the first page.

 

[Disir]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No. It's not even debatable. There has never been nor will there ever be an unconditional surrender.

What terms did we grant to Nazi Germany, rather than their unconditional surrender?

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Um.... cite?

 

[M14 Shooter]

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Conditionally.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I have a thread regarding the bombs, i advise you all read it, it's on the first page.

You "advise" us to read it?

 

[Disir]

No. It's not even debatable. There has never been nor will there ever be an unconditional surrender.

What terms did we grant to Nazi Germany, rather than their unconditional surrender?

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Um.... cite?

I already have.

 

[Disir]

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Conditionally.

There is no unconditional surrender.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Offering a ceasefire and return to the 1941 start lines IS NOT an offer to surrender. And that is all they offered.

 

[jon_berzerk]

There was a good piece on Fresh Air this morning about this. Something that stuck out was how Hiroshima was selected. A commission was created composed of scientists and military personnel among others. Apparently some wanted to drop the bomb on Tokyo Bay while others suggested a remote military instillation to let the world know of it's existence. Anticipating the production of hydrogen bombs many of the scientists wanted to maximize the damage and casualties of the first bomb to "warn" the world of the dangers of these types of weapons.

the targets chosen needed to have closely built structures and vulnerable to fire


the blast are was determined to be a mile so they wanted cities with closely built structures of that size or bigger

range of aircraft(s)

the target(s) need to be of high military/strategic value

in the first dropping they wanted a city that was pretty much intact

to make determinations of damage done by the bomb

plus other things

 

[jon_berzerk]

There was never a reason to wipe out two cities full of civilians and cause truly unimaginable suffering for generations to come.

One bomb could have been dropped over water and had the same effect.

And if it did not have the effect we wanted, THEN we could have escalated.

As it is, we committed mass murder.

I suspect that it also gave us some sort of tacit permission to murder many millions more in the never-ending phony wars we have waged since them.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

unacceptable terms

 

[Disir]

Japan NEVER offered to surrender you idiot. ALL that was offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines, as in we give back all the territory we captured. AFTER 2 NUKES the Japanese STILL refused to surrender. It took the personal intercession of the Emperor and then the Army tried a coup to stop THAT.

THIS ^^^^ is why I don't bother to post in the CDZ.

Well, he isn't here for the discussion. He's here for the denial. Japan made several attempts to surrender. He knows it. We don't say that because there were Hitler hold outs that Germany didn't surrender. We don't say that because there were feuds that lasted another decade the Civil War didn't end.

Japan NEVER offered to surrender XXXX -- Mod Edit. ALL they offered was a ceasefire and return to 41 start lines. No occupation, no apology no disbandment of military no consequence for murdering MILLIONS of people.

Go ahead be specific post for us these supposed offers of peace, with date time and who offered it. There was no peace Government in Japan. The Army controlled the Government completely. Even after 2 atomic bombs they REFUSED to surrender and when the Emperor over ruled them they attempted a COUP to stop him.

Japan tried multiple times to surrender.

Offering a ceasefire and return to the 1941 start lines IS NOT an offer to surrender. And that is all they offered.

Go back and read what I posted. The only sticking point was that the emperor be left. In the end----they got that too. Try again.

 

[TyroneSlothrop]

from the Allied firebombing of Dresden in World War II to the massacres at My Lai in the Vietnam War and Fallujah in the Iraq War, civilian populations have been consistently targeted in our military conflicts.
The Unsettling Truth About America s Attack On Nagasaki

 

[jillian]

Japan started and lost a war. All else said is mental masturbation.

Shakespeare's Julius Caesar: "Cry 'Havoc!', and let slip the dogs of war".

Japan let slip and subjects of that Empire's Emperor paid a horrific price according to western values, but their own behavior and values would have had them dropping tens of A-bombs without regard for any conversation afterwards

fouk Howard Zinn, a good man who embraced celebrity while burying his own guilt in leftie bullcrap

Howard Zinn has a lot of good things to say and certainly is important in any debate on our history. that said, i agree with you on the subject of hiroshima. a horrific occurrence which I still believe ended the war far more quickly than it ever would have ended otherwise.